MVPaintballer
the lil d that could
Iv been having some trouble vs doc lately. Mainly cause his pills > my lasers and he punishes really well if I miss an L cancel (which isnt often). Any tips?
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vs doc.
- Thread starter MVPaintballer
- Start date
Fox128
Smash Journeyman
well
First of all, learn to l-cancel properly with Falco. It's very important.
But you're right, you can't approach Doc as well with your lasers as other characters, mainly because of his pills. Just try some mindgame... You can jump above, or even run through, under those pills, if you time it right (sometimes it's also a good mindgame to just crouchcancel the last pill, when Doc approaches, that way you can throw out any attack at him, but I mainly use this with Marth vs Doc, not so sure about the Falco matchup). Another good option is to just destroy the pills with your high-priority aerials. Reflector is not a very good option because it has lots of lag and Doc can punish you pretty well.
Other than that, just learn good combos vs Doc, so basically if you get near to him as Falco, he should be helpless.
Hope this helps
btw. rate my English XD
First of all, learn to l-cancel properly with Falco. It's very important.
But you're right, you can't approach Doc as well with your lasers as other characters, mainly because of his pills. Just try some mindgame... You can jump above, or even run through, under those pills, if you time it right (sometimes it's also a good mindgame to just crouchcancel the last pill, when Doc approaches, that way you can throw out any attack at him, but I mainly use this with Marth vs Doc, not so sure about the Falco matchup). Another good option is to just destroy the pills with your high-priority aerials. Reflector is not a very good option because it has lots of lag and Doc can punish you pretty well.
Other than that, just learn good combos vs Doc, so basically if you get near to him as Falco, he should be helpless.
Hope this helps
btw. rate my English XD
A-Laon
Smash Master
Top tier.
Anyway, yes the pills are definitely a formidable force in the spam battle that is this match-up. You could try to be a little more tactical, but really... mindgames? This is
Create a significant distance between you and Doc then let loose with rapid shls. From this range, the speed and RoF of the lasers will greatly overpower the slower pills, forcing Doc to quit pilling or make an advance. If he does the former, gg, you can now charge him with lasers. Should he head into the air / platforms and start coming towards you with more pills, he just gave you the advantage of being on the ground, so you can effortlessly dodge any pills he throws and punish him.
Happy spamming.
Firstly, pills are not > than lasers. Lasers are a much better projectile. Remember Doc can't approach with his pills like you can with lasers because they don't cancel. Make sure you also abuse Nair against Doc it eats through his pills, and then you kick him in the head.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
^^^ Pill's will stop a SH'ing falco. ^^^
If you full jump pill, the pill animation ends before doc has hit the ground, and therefore, they are effectively "cancelled". Also, the stun from the pills is a lot greater than the stun from the laser, so doc can just full jump pill into whatever attack/grab he wants, much like falco's SHL...
If doc is pill spamming, the lazers will just go under him, and the pill will be heading straight towards falco...
if falco nairs a pill, doc could and probably will just land and dsmash...dsmash > nair at the end of the sex kick animation...If this doesn't happen, doc could also just DI away from falco during the full jump pill, obviously noticing falco's sex kick had just ate through the pill...
falco doc is a hard matchup, as doc has uthrow chain into dthrow fsmash once you're at a high percentage...against Doc it's a lot simpler to choose a platform level, there's a better chance to win, mostly because on FD, doc can get out of most of falco's combos just by jumping out of them or nairing...doc's nair comes out fast. On a platform level, this isn't the case
If doc is pill spamming, the lazers will just go under him, and the pill will be heading straight towards falco...
if falco nairs a pill, doc could and probably will just land and dsmash...dsmash > nair at the end of the sex kick animation...If this doesn't happen, doc could also just DI away from falco during the full jump pill, obviously noticing falco's sex kick had just ate through the pill...
falco doc is a hard matchup, as doc has uthrow chain into dthrow fsmash once you're at a high percentage...against Doc it's a lot simpler to choose a platform level, there's a better chance to win, mostly because on FD, doc can get out of most of falco's combos just by jumping out of them or nairing...doc's nair comes out fast. On a platform level, this isn't the case
watch out for his stupid nair, as you probably already know. like someone said already, create a good distance (FD) and let loose with lasers. when you SHL at a decent speed doc cant get pills out. once you have this advantage start SHLing closer and closer. with enough strategy, lasers are indeed a much better projectile than pills. be sure not to take pills lightly they do way too much damage for that. so yeah, get the advantage and move in. pills shouldnt be a problem if you play smart
K.C. Cloud
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2006
- Messages
- 750
Well, I found platform stages (Stadium, DreamLand 64, Yoshi's Story) help me a lot vs doc. Because of platform abilities.
Helps to evade pills, combo him more fluently since he floats I can use platforms to help myself reach him more effeciently and carry him up and down them, as well as tech chase him on the platforms.
I also use the platforms to help myself cover the stage with lasers to restrict his movement to timing.
L-canceling is important and don't stay in to close for long, the crouch cancel to dsmash can hurt falco depending on position on the stage.
With doc, it's knowing some of his advantages over you and your spacing and how fast you can get in (do your damage) and get out. Also, try your hardest to cut his recovery shorter than it already is.
Helps to evade pills, combo him more fluently since he floats I can use platforms to help myself reach him more effeciently and carry him up and down them, as well as tech chase him on the platforms.
I also use the platforms to help myself cover the stage with lasers to restrict his movement to timing.
L-canceling is important and don't stay in to close for long, the crouch cancel to dsmash can hurt falco depending on position on the stage.
With doc, it's knowing some of his advantages over you and your spacing and how fast you can get in (do your damage) and get out. Also, try your hardest to cut his recovery shorter than it already is.
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
this is obviously a tough matchup. it's much easier to combo him when there are platforms-- when i get a shine off i jc it and then waveland onto the plat. this makes it much easier to extend the combo. even though doc's pills are a huge nuisance, i try to approach this as i approach the marth matchup. if you are on a fd, just try to keep your distance and abuse the shl b/c he is hoping that you will charge to stop the pill spamming. just be patient. i find shining out of my shield to be particularly effective here. also, i use my utilt a lot instead of following him into the air (b/c he's do **** floaty).
MVPaintballer
the lil d that could
Well I found that when I use space animals (especially falco) against Doc on very small, tight stages its much easier to approach but his combo ability kinda goes up. Such stages as Yoshi Story, GG, FoD. Any idea how not to get ***** by his combos into dsmash, fsmash and how to approach a cape abuser.
wait dont pills cancel themselves when you land?
paintballer, FD should be just as easy to approach if you dont foolishly charge into pills. space yourself and gain the advantage with projectiles.
the only way to not get ***** is to play a good defense and do the ****** yourself. make sure you dont get greedy because his sex kick is good so just combo a bit and stop if you think you might get kicked. cape abusers are dealt with with mindgames. you shouldnt get caped off the edge that much if you play it safe/smart. my brother mains doc and he can rarely cape my recoveries. on land cape abusers arent that dangerous just react quick and be smart. if he always capes you should be able to punish it by watching out for it.
paintballer, FD should be just as easy to approach if you dont foolishly charge into pills. space yourself and gain the advantage with projectiles.
the only way to not get ***** is to play a good defense and do the ****** yourself. make sure you dont get greedy because his sex kick is good so just combo a bit and stop if you think you might get kicked. cape abusers are dealt with with mindgames. you shouldnt get caped off the edge that much if you play it safe/smart. my brother mains doc and he can rarely cape my recoveries. on land cape abusers arent that dangerous just react quick and be smart. if he always capes you should be able to punish it by watching out for it.
Yo, I main doc and I secondary falco, so I think I can give you some useful advice.
First and foremost, you can approach with SHB, but it wont be your bread'n'butter in this matchup like it is in most. Granted Doc can obviously cape it (which is your main problem, since it'll completely throw off your timing), Doc wont always be ready to cape it, because if he is, he cant really be ready for anything else.
As for pills, dont forget that your shine is actually a reflector (lol). Dont make this a habit, but if doc tries a pill rush, you may want to try to a JC shine (or whatever it's called, shine the pill and jump out of your shine). That way, the pill will most likely go back to doc and you have a few options out of your shine.
___
Obviously, you dont want to get grabbed. Doc can chaingrab falco pretty far, so try to stay away from his grab. If you do get grabbed, get to work with the DI.
___
As for combos, you have to avoid his combos just like he has to avoid yours. You have to watch for for u.air to d.smash combos (and this may be one of his approach options). You also need to watch out for multibutts (u.smashes) from a grab, or any missed tech you do.
The only other "common" attack you really have to keep an eye out for is the b.air. Doc's b.air is ridiculously fast, and although it doesnt have a great knockback, it's enough to get you moving, which might get you off the stage.
___
If and when you recover, you have to be very careful because of the obvious reason, the cape.
Dont be scared of the cape, though, especially if you can make it close to the ledge. The closer you get the more options you have.
On average, most doc players arent ready for forward + b unless you telegraph it (i.e., you ALWAYS do it to recover), so if you you may want to use it to dart back to the edge. Also, you can still get away with ledgehop -> forward + b, but again, you CANNOT train doc for it, or else he'll punish you for it sooner or later.
Of course, if you ledgehop - double laser, he might have the cape ready anyway, so you have to be careful about forward +b.
But anywho, the worst position you can be in when recovering, other than not being able to make it back, is being under the ledge. That's just asking for doc to cape you.
To avoid this, try up + b'ing up (just like you'd avoid anybody who's standing on the edge to edgeguard you). If you get him to miss his cape, then you can fastfall to the ledge and be aight.
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If you want some stages to take doc to, I personally say anything with platforms works.
Platforms mess up docs combos, and gives you a chance to escape chainthrows and multibutts while extending your combos.
FD and PS also work, but you have to know that you're giving doc open lanes to pill rush. PS isnt as bad since neutral, wind, and water have platforms for you to jump on (and again, to use for your combos), while fire and ground have walls to stop docs pills.
From my understanding, Falco works pretty well on both moving stages (correct me if i'm wrong). Doc on the other hand, isnt really spectacular at them, and actually loses alot of pill rushing options since there arent many open flat areas. So if you can handle playing either moving stage, that might be a good option against doc.
The one stage you probably want to avoid though is corneria. Doc can get some weird pill trajectories here, and he can also use the fin of the ship to up + b to get high-priority hits and keep you pinned near the door.
___
All in all, doc is a "different" fight, imo, since you have to watch for the cape, but it's not an almighty cape. Just be careful and be tricky when you recover, and dont rely too much on SHB for approaches (unless Doc isnt caping, then by all means ***** it to the end of the earth) and you should be fine.
First and foremost, you can approach with SHB, but it wont be your bread'n'butter in this matchup like it is in most. Granted Doc can obviously cape it (which is your main problem, since it'll completely throw off your timing), Doc wont always be ready to cape it, because if he is, he cant really be ready for anything else.
As for pills, dont forget that your shine is actually a reflector (lol). Dont make this a habit, but if doc tries a pill rush, you may want to try to a JC shine (or whatever it's called, shine the pill and jump out of your shine). That way, the pill will most likely go back to doc and you have a few options out of your shine.
___
Obviously, you dont want to get grabbed. Doc can chaingrab falco pretty far, so try to stay away from his grab. If you do get grabbed, get to work with the DI.
___
As for combos, you have to avoid his combos just like he has to avoid yours. You have to watch for for u.air to d.smash combos (and this may be one of his approach options). You also need to watch out for multibutts (u.smashes) from a grab, or any missed tech you do.
The only other "common" attack you really have to keep an eye out for is the b.air. Doc's b.air is ridiculously fast, and although it doesnt have a great knockback, it's enough to get you moving, which might get you off the stage.
___
If and when you recover, you have to be very careful because of the obvious reason, the cape.
Dont be scared of the cape, though, especially if you can make it close to the ledge. The closer you get the more options you have.
On average, most doc players arent ready for forward + b unless you telegraph it (i.e., you ALWAYS do it to recover), so if you you may want to use it to dart back to the edge. Also, you can still get away with ledgehop -> forward + b, but again, you CANNOT train doc for it, or else he'll punish you for it sooner or later.
Of course, if you ledgehop - double laser, he might have the cape ready anyway, so you have to be careful about forward +b.
But anywho, the worst position you can be in when recovering, other than not being able to make it back, is being under the ledge. That's just asking for doc to cape you.
To avoid this, try up + b'ing up (just like you'd avoid anybody who's standing on the edge to edgeguard you). If you get him to miss his cape, then you can fastfall to the ledge and be aight.
__
If you want some stages to take doc to, I personally say anything with platforms works.
Platforms mess up docs combos, and gives you a chance to escape chainthrows and multibutts while extending your combos.
FD and PS also work, but you have to know that you're giving doc open lanes to pill rush. PS isnt as bad since neutral, wind, and water have platforms for you to jump on (and again, to use for your combos), while fire and ground have walls to stop docs pills.
From my understanding, Falco works pretty well on both moving stages (correct me if i'm wrong). Doc on the other hand, isnt really spectacular at them, and actually loses alot of pill rushing options since there arent many open flat areas. So if you can handle playing either moving stage, that might be a good option against doc.
The one stage you probably want to avoid though is corneria. Doc can get some weird pill trajectories here, and he can also use the fin of the ship to up + b to get high-priority hits and keep you pinned near the door.
___
All in all, doc is a "different" fight, imo, since you have to watch for the cape, but it's not an almighty cape. Just be careful and be tricky when you recover, and dont rely too much on SHB for approaches (unless Doc isnt caping, then by all means ***** it to the end of the earth) and you should be fine.
not if you use shl properly... shl is a much versatile projectile than pills. yeah if you retardedly shl towards a doc your gonna get pilled... I wasn't saying they don't hinder your game, but they hardly "stop" an shling falco. Unless you were talking about shffling nair... and no nair will go through pills.
Giggidax
Smash Ace
fox128 !!!! i love ur video "Dair to Compare" u must let me be ur apprentice O_O
anyway, jus dodge the pills. crouch, run through them, or jump. i prefer jumping and crouching, i can never time running thru them properly. shine combos will own doc. hes pretty floaty so go and and release some uair combos. watch out for doc's sex kick. and be ready for his bair edgeguard.
other than that, pillar him till hes angry at the world.
anyway, jus dodge the pills. crouch, run through them, or jump. i prefer jumping and crouching, i can never time running thru them properly. shine combos will own doc. hes pretty floaty so go and and release some uair combos. watch out for doc's sex kick. and be ready for his bair edgeguard.
other than that, pillar him till hes angry at the world.