Viridian City: A weekly-ish discussion about Ivysaur's Moves and More! This Week: Bair

TimeSmash

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nintend64
#1
Hey everyone,

I've noticed a lot in these boards that new topics come up pertaining to certain moves. I think it'd be great to hear what everyone here has to say about certain moves, such as setups, combos, frame data, and situations where the move works best or doesn't work at all. There is another thread like this in the Project M Zelda Boards called Triforce of Wisdom, and when I feel like editing this OP more it would follow that kind of format. In that board we discuss various Zelda related moves for a couple weeks or so, until we get bored or enough has been said on the topic for the moment.

I think it'd be great if we started the discussion with a move almost every Ivy player can relate to, Bair! It's pretty useful and has a lot of range and a nasty angle. What are your guys' thoughts about the move? Hopefully this thread takes off and we can discuss different stuff each week!!
 

it's Papa

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#2
I like this idea, but I feel like it probably won't take off here due to lack of activity on these boards. This might be something cool to implement in our Skype group.

EDIT: Of course, everyone please feel free to prove me wrong and get a good discussion going here!
 
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TimeSmash

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#3
Yeah in the end, I figure nothing ventured, nothing gained haha.

I haven't really messed around with the first hit of Bair that much. Thoughts??
 

it's Papa

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#4
Is 1st hit bair fixed knockback? If so, reverse 1st hit bair might have some applications.

I think canceling bair after 1st hit by landing can lead into a grab, but I'm not 100%
 
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WickedWarlock

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#5
Pretty sure you're at a frame disadvantage if you only land the first hit and lcancel before the second. I don't make a concerted effort to use it, but occasionally it can help reset the situation to neutral. Ivy just doesn't have too many quick options from there and relies more on spacing.

I'm way less sure about reversing it though. I don't think there's really a direction on the first hit, I believe it just puts you in a short hitstun. You might be able to grab from it but I don't usually trust Ivy's grabs unless it's safe.
 

DirtyRoach

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#6
Bair feels a little ridiculous, since we have to entirely whiff to get punished, it seems. That might just be my training buddies lack of experience/willingness to learn that makes it seem that way, though
 

it's Papa

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#7
Bair spam is pretty easy to play around and is not really a viable strategy at a high level. Tell your friend to shield.
 
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Swann

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#8
I've actually landed first hit bair->grab a few times. You need to be crossing them up as the bair hits, because you are at significant frame disadvantage as soon as you start to grab. Obviously this setup does not work at all on characters with good dsmash coverage (peach, roy, rob, etc).

I've had more success with first hit bair->jab or ftilt. Typically a light attack like that prompts most people to CC, so ftilt works well.
 
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#9
Bair is an excellent move and can be the deciding factor in some matchups. I think the real key (beyond not using it when a combo extender such as nair could be used instead) in proper bair useage is
Bair spam is pretty easy to play around and is not really a viable strategy at a high level. Tell your friend to shield.
Or crouch cancel! CCing means they wont go anywhere, so they can even potentially CC the first hit and WD forward to avoid the sweetspot of the second hit and punish us. Or any character with strong CC punish (GW dtilt, peach dsmash, roy dtilt) can just throw that out when we hit them if we're not spaced optimally.

I think bair at low % can setup for a pivot grab if they don't roll away so that's a good option. Fadeaway bairs from ledge are so strong as well.
 

-Sothe

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#10
RAR bair is a decent approach at low percents I think, because if they don't CC it or anything, it leads into a grab or a dsmash to send the opponent offstage early. In order to play around the possible CC or shield, you should be spacing the bairs such that you land on the other side of your opponent. This will allow you to follow quickly with jab (if your opponent has a fast punish option), ftilt (if the opponent crouch canceled), or a buffered roll/spotdodge if the opponent has a very fast punish option. Generally, this approach should be used as a mixup to short hop fair and your general pokes such as ftilt, dtilt, and wavedash forward jabs.
 

TreK

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#11
So correct me if I'm wrong, the hitboxes for the second hit are
-inner hitboxes : low angle, low knockbac
-tipper : high angle, high knockback
Right ?

During edgeguards, I've been trying against fastfallers and characters with poor recovery in general to use the 1st hit of the bair in a way that lets me get really close to them if it hits, so that I hit the low angle instead of the high angle. I sacrifice a bit of knockback but against certain characters I'll gladly do that.
 
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TimeSmash

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#12
I'm glad this is taking off so well! Thanks everyone for contributing!!

Edit: I was going to edit this post to include frame/hitbox data, but can't find anything on the boards regarding Ivysaur's moveset regarding frame data. Is there a place I should be looking?
 
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TimeSmash

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#13
Sorry for double post, but I'm probably going to change topics soon as this one is dying down? Anything in particular you guys want to discuss? If not, I think it'd be a good idea to discuss Nair
 
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