Version 1.1.1 Pac-Man Patch notes

[BSP]

It's really hard to test by myself, but I think Nair -> trampoline is grab safe if you fast fall the Nair and do it as close to the ground as possible. I would assume it's completely safe against tethers, and probably most of the cast tbh. For example, I don't think Villager has an offensive answer to Nair -> trampoline done properly now.

I pulled off the shield break blockstring. I didn't even need a Nair because the opponent held shield for a bit. This is a KO at high % and a 30%+ galaxian combo at low %.

We need to look at spaced Blinky on block. We can definitely still get grabbed, but we might be safe from smash attack retaliation. Goofing around on For glory a few minutes ago, I was throwing Blinky out left and right without much fear.

If Dash attack hit 3 is safe on block from grabs, that gives us a pretty decent KO trap at high %. DA spaced for the third hit with a bell stocked is now a 0:100 situation for anyone with a bad OoS game. They shield, they get trampolined. They get hit, possible combo into the bell for the stock.

We were overthinking this patch a bit. Our biggest problem got a universal nerf, so this patch was good to us. All of our attacks are a bit safer on block, and our fruits/hydrant/setups in general all have gotten better against shield. Let's take full advantage of this while we can.

Edit: I think fast fall Nair -> Trampoline is near frame perfect, but it does seem to be grab safe. Pac-Man gets grabbed, but the trampoline frees him. A well time Nair against any character with a bad grab is now extremely safe for us, and still pretty safe against normal grabs. Again, very fast OoS options can still hit us.

 

[Huge]

O P T I M I S M
- Dtilt's a better poke now. Try combining it with the hydrant for momentum jank.

- Don't overlook DITCIT strawberry, or DITCIT anything, really.

- Now landing up-air is a little bit safer, but you're still probably going to get punished if you hit shield. Too bad, since it's a fun combo starter.

- Are well-spaced forward smashes safe? They seem so to me but obviously my opponents aren't always playing optimally.

- Galaxian has some meaty shieldstun now! If you can get it to hit someone's shield at the base of the loop, you can apply a lot of pressure as it comes back.

- It's nice that fair pokes are safer when you're looking for that golden 120-130% fair to key confirm.

- If we can get the hang of last-frame nair stuff, we can fish for the sick (and very weight-dependent) 60%ish nair to key confirm without putting ourselves in harm's way. This might be very useful for the Fox matchup, because Fox doesn't have a godly OOS option and the nair to key combo kills at 70-80% near the edge. (This is unrelated to shields, but try doing that out of a 50% down throw double jab lock. You'll look like a god.)

 

[ZeoLightning]

https://twitter.com/gengar6tomo/status/649375242519867392

Only on the last hit, meaning hitting with the first 2 is still unsafe, but "safer"

 

[dragontamer]

Only on the last hit, meaning hitting with the first 2 is still unsafe, but "safer"

If I'm reading the frame data correctly, the Dash Attack hits on frame 11 (2%), 21(2%), and 31(5%). If the shield stun is really (%/1.8) + 3, that is around four frames of shield stun on the dash attack.

This leaves a 6-frame hole between each hit.

OOS, your options are:
* Grab: most characters have a 7-frame grab or slower
* OOS Aerials: the fastest of which is Little Mac's at 2f Nair, but jumpsquats need to be factored in. LittleMac has 5f Jumpsquat, so his Nair is out on frame 7. Pikachu has 4f jumpsquat and 3f Nair (7 frame OOS NAir). Mario and Luigi have 5f jumpsquat, so I'd expect them to be slower.
* OOS USmash: Mario's the fastest I can think of, which hits on frame 9.
* OOS Up-B: Well... Pacman has a 1f Trampoline that can attack and escape. Other players with fast OOS options can escape as well.

100% theorycraft, since I don't have access to a training partner who can test this out right now. But at least in theory, shielding the Dash Attack is no longer an option for opponents.

Of course, I could be off by one or two frames and... all the math above is just wrong. Lol

 

[ZeoLightning]

If I'm reading the frame data correctly, the Dash Attack hits on frame 11 (2%), 21(2%), and 31(5%). If the shield stun is really (%/1.8) + 3, that is around four frames of shield stun on the dash attack.

This leaves a 6-frame hole between each hit.

OOS, your options are:
* Grab: most characters have a 7-frame grab or slower
* OOS Aerials: the fastest of which is Little Mac's at 2f Nair, but jumpsquats need to be factored in. LittleMac has 5f Jumpsquat, so his Nair is out on frame 7. Pikachu has 4f jumpsquat and 3f Nair (7 frame OOS NAir). Mario and Luigi have 5f jumpsquat, so I'd expect them to be slower.
* OOS USmash: Mario's the fastest I can think of, which hits on frame 9.
* OOS Up-B: Well... Pacman has a 1f Trampoline that can attack and escape. Other players with fast OOS options can escape as well.

100% theorycraft, since I don't have access to a training partner who can test this out right now. But at least in theory, shielding the Dash Attack is no longer an option for opponents.

Of course, I could be off by one or two frames and... all the math above is just wrong. Lol

I tested this with a friend and i could still shield grab between the first and second hits of Dash Attack, but i used mario, which is why i stated earlier characters with slower grabs would either trade or get locked into shield into Up B

im more than certain Dash Attack is still not safe on shield except for the third hit

 

[Nu~]

I tested this with a friend and i could still shield grab between the first and second hits of Dash Attack, but i used mario, which is why i stated earlier characters with slower grabs would either trade or get locked into shield into Up B

im more than certain Dash Attack is still not safe on shield except for the third hit

You are arguing with data tho. I would suggest trying again

 

[xzx]

I tested how safe PAC-MAN's Dash attack is now (I tested only with King Dedede), and King Dedede couldn't grab in-between the hits. If he tried, he would trade. So Dash attack to Trampoline is a good option. But characters with faster grabs, as some of you have implied, can still grab in-between the hits, I assume.

Also, great stuff you have discovered in this thread, about the shield break stuff. =P Rather that shields got nerfed than PAC-MAN buffed. Shields (in my opinion) was PAC-MAN's greatest enemy, but maybe reflectors are now... I still think it's shields. But we have it much easier now, since we didn't have many moves that dealt a lot of shield stun. This patch is very hype!

 

[BSP]

If I'm reading the frame data correctly, the Dash Attack hits on frame 11 (2%), 21(2%), and 31(5%). If the shield stun is really (%/1.8) + 3, that is around four frames of shield stun on the dash attack.

This leaves a 6-frame hole between each hit.

OOS, your options are:
* Grab: most characters have a 7-frame grab or slower
* OOS Aerials: the fastest of which is Little Mac's at 2f Nair, but jumpsquats need to be factored in. LittleMac has 5f Jumpsquat, so his Nair is out on frame 7. Pikachu has 4f jumpsquat and 3f Nair (7 frame OOS NAir). Mario and Luigi have 5f jumpsquat, so I'd expect them to be slower.
* OOS USmash: Mario's the fastest I can think of, which hits on frame 9.
* OOS Up-B: Well... Pacman has a 1f Trampoline that can attack and escape. Other players with fast OOS options can escape as well.

100% theorycraft, since I don't have access to a training partner who can test this out right now. But at least in theory, shielding the Dash Attack is no longer an option for opponents.

Of course, I could be off by one or two frames and... all the math above is just wrong. Lol

This is probably right. Xzx said DDD trades when he goes for a grab, and his is F7. So F6 grabs and fast OoS options can still respond between the hits. Which means against certain characters, DA is pretty dang silly.

Also, if it wasn't obvious, the universal shield stun changes make it harder for us to shield grab (not that we did so often anyway) and harder to punish well spaced moves. We gain a lot more than we lose though imo.

 

[Froggy]

A safer dash attack just after I trained myself to stop using it, that makes me sad

I'm absolutely over the moon about trampoline and hydrant being safer on shield. We needed that!

 

[dragontamer]

I tested this with a friend and i could still shield grab between the first and second hits of Dash Attack, but i used mario, which is why i stated earlier characters with slower grabs would either trade or get locked into shield into Up B

im more than certain Dash Attack is still not safe on shield except for the third hit

Mario has 6f grab, so Dash Attack (with 7f holes) is not safe against him.
Dedede has 7f grab, so Dash Attack is safe against him.

Time to memorize some frame data people! This is big. More importantly, this proves that the hole is exactly 7 frames, now that people have tested both Mario and Dedede, so we can generalize the hypothesis.

Jab1 -> Jab2 might not be unsafe anymore... which has always pissed me off. (Since I work hard on hit-confirming Jab2 only to have the work negated and Jab1 still gets me punished a lot of the time). I'll have to test this one.

You are arguing with data tho. I would suggest trying again

In game experience trumps data every time. Data should be used to ponder hypothesis and setup research. But don't trust any untested data by itself.

 

[Froggy]

Mario has 6f grab, so Dash Attack (with 7f holes) is not safe against him.
Dedede has 7f grab, so Dash Attack is safe against him.

Time to memorize some frame data people! This is big. More importantly, this proves that the hole is exactly 7 frames, now that people have tested both Mario and Dedede, so we can generalize the hypothesis.

Is it really practical for someone to be frame perfect to punish pacman's dash attack with Mario's grab.

 

[dragontamer]

Is it really practical for someone to be frame perfect to punish pacman's dash attack with Mario's grab.

Smash has a 5f buffer though (IIRC). So Mario just spams grab and as long as he has 5f of timing its golden. Or some other, largish buffer. I forget the exact number, but its rather large compared to other fighting games.

The important bit for Mario is that he should shields two hits and grab inbetween the 2nd and 3rd hit. A properly spaced Dash attack will hit on frame 12 instead of 11, making the hole between hit1 and hit2 unsafe for Mario's grab.

In fact, if we properly space ourselves to hit only on the 2nd frame of the 2nd hit, in theory... even Mario can't grab punish a (late hit) DA -> Trampoline with grabs. (IIRC, his Up B has a rather quick invincibility frame though). This requires us to be frame-perfect however, so this is probably not a worthwhile strategy.

 

[BSP]

Brawl had a 10 frame buffer. I'm assuming it's the same or pretty close in this game.

Relevant characters I could see dash attack shenanigans being consistent on: Olimar, Villager, Falcon (F7 grab), MK (F7 grab, shuttle loop F8), ROB (F7 grab), Yoshi, and DK.

 

[SafCar]

Smash has a 5f buffer though (IIRC). So Mario just spams grab and as long as he has 5f of timing its golden. Or some other, largish buffer. I forget the exact number, but its rather large compared to other fighting games.

The important bit for Mario is that he should shields two hits and grab inbetween the 2nd and 3rd hit. A properly spaced Dash attack will hit on frame 12 instead of 11, making the hole between hit1 and hit2 unsafe for Mario's grab.

In fact, if we properly space ourselves to hit only on the 2nd frame of the 2nd hit, in theory... even Mario can't grab punish a (late hit) DA -> Trampoline with grabs. (IIRC, his Up B has a rather quick invincibility frame though). This requires us to be frame-perfect however, so this is probably not a worthwhile strategy.

Can Mario's Up B hit us in the third hit though? If not, this might make the MU a bit easier for us.

 

[Nu~]

Brawl had a 10 frame buffer. I'm assuming it's the same or pretty close in this game.

Relevant characters I could see dash attack shenanigans being consistent on: Olimar, Villager, Falcon (F7 grab), MK (F7 grab, shuttle loop F8), ROB (F7 grab), Yoshi, and DK.

Add greninja to that list too. His OoS options are awful

 

[dragontamer]

Brawl had a 10 frame buffer. I'm assuming it's the same or pretty close in this game.

Relevant characters I could see dash attack shenanigans being consistent on: Olimar, Villager, Falcon (F7 grab), MK (F7 grab, shuttle loop F8), ROB (F7 grab), Yoshi, and DK.

Conversely, Mario, Dr. Mario, Ness, Shiek, Lucario, Luigi have 6f grabs. Zamus has 4frame Up-B which KOs, Samus is 5frame screw attack. I think that OOS->Up B needs at least 1f of jumpsquat...

 

[BSP]

Can Mario's Up B hit us in the third hit though? If not, this might make the MU a bit easier for us.

Yes it can. Mario's up B OoS is F3.

Add greninja to that list too. His OoS options are awful

Yeah.

Conversely, Mario, Dr. Mario, Ness, Shiek, Lucario, Luigi have 6f grabs. Zamus has 4frame Up-B which KOs, Samus is 5frame screw attack. I think that OOS->Up B needs at least 1f of jumpsquat...

No. A real OoS move has no jumpsquat or shield drop, and the only two things that fit this criteria are Usmashes and Up Bs. Aerials OoS aren't really OoS.

 

[SafCar]

That's only 8 MUs that we can't use Dash Attack safely in. Out of 53 characters, though, I'm completely fine with this, even if I would prefer a Mario nerf. *grumble grumble*

Can't Marth Dolphin Slash us OOS too?

 

[BSP]

That's only 8 MUs that we can't use Dash Attack safely in. Out of 53 characters, though, I'm completely fine with this, even if I would prefer a Mario nerf. *grumble grumble*

Can't Marth Dolphin Slash us OOS too?

Yes, and Lucina too by extension.

 

[dragontamer]

That's only 8 MUs that we can't use Dash Attack safely in. Out of 53 characters, though, I'm completely fine with this, even if I would prefer a Mario nerf. *grumble grumble*

Can't Marth Dolphin Slash us OOS too?

Well, the list is not exhaustive as I don't remember every quick OOS option. But ~8 to ~10 characters with strong OOS and/or quick-grab options. Also, I forgot Diddy Kong as a 6f grab. Dunno how I forgot about him...

These characters also happen to be the top-tier of this game though. Turns out that quick-grabs and OOS-options are good in this game.

 

[Nu~]

This may help

 

[SafCar]

Is that a calculation of shield stun? If so it's pretty wonky, since it should have a base of 3f instead of 2f

 

[Froggy]

View attachment 75968
This may help

Any chance you have the list showing what the damage% to shield stun ratio was before the patch?

 

[BridgesWithTurtles]

Plot twist: The hydrant glitch is going to keep rotating in and out of the game with each patch. Sakurai will observe how Pac-Man players adapt with and without it until he decides whether or not he wants to keep it as part of his arsenal permanently.

 

[Nu~]

https://trinket.io/python/35c2ec074b?toggleCode=true

How do we calculate aerial safeness with this?


I'm trying to test:
fair->z drop key-> hydrant drop
Fair->z drop galaxian-> crossup bair

 

[BSP]

https://trinket.io/python/35c2ec074b?toggleCode=true

How do we calculate aerial safeness with this?


I'm trying to test:
fair->z drop key-> hydrant drop
Fair->z drop galaxian-> crossup bair

I think you put in what it asks, and then it gives you frame advantage. For best case scenario with aerials, assume you strike the shield and land on the same frame or right after.

For example, it's saying Bair is -14 on shield. Since trampoline and shield come out in 1 frame, that means the opponent has 15 frames to hit us with something OoS (which i doubt if the bair was spaced), (15-jump squat) frames to hit us with an aerial (which I also doubt), or 8 frames after dropping shield to get over to us and hit us.

If the opponent stays grounded to get to us, they can walk or run. If they walk, they'll obviously take longer to get to us, but will have all of their options. If they run, they're limited to Usmash, Dash attack, or SH aerial, which puts jump squat into the mix.

In other words, spaced Bair should be pretty dang safe.

 

[ZeoLightning]

This is probably right. Xzx said DDD trades when he goes for a grab, and his is F7. So F6 grabs and fast OoS options can still respond between the hits. Which means against certain characters, DA is pretty dang silly.

Also, if it wasn't obvious, the universal shield stun changes make it harder for us to shield grab (not that we did so often anyway) and harder to punish well spaced moves. We gain a lot more than we lose though imo.

This is why i said "safer"

 

[dragontamer]

In other words, spaced Bair should be pretty dang safe.

I'm also intrigued by Fair->Hydrant as shield poke.

I always found Hydrant to not offer enough shield pressure before, but 13%/1.8 + 2 == 8 or 9 frames of shield-stun now. FAF is apparently 40 from the ground and 35 from the air, which should make Hydrant safe against a lot of things.

Mario / Dr. Mario's OOS USmash will launch hydrant and hit us out of shield. But there aren't too many attacks that do 13%+ and come out fast enough OOS. The fastest options won't launch Hydrant (leaving shield on top of hydrant an option), while the slower options give Pacman enough time to jump out of the way.

Its probably a disadvantaged situation for Pacman, but maybe less of one than Fair -> land?? I'll have to play around with it with my friends sometime this weekend.

If the opponent stays grounded to get to us, they can walk or run. If they walk, they'll obviously take longer to get to us, but will have all of their options. If they run, they're limited to Usmash, Dash attack, or SH aerial, which puts jump squat into the mix.

Here's some theorycraft for ya: Fox Trot FSmash or Perfect Pivot Tilts / Smashes??

Realistically, I'd expect most players to just do a running grab. They are very good on some characters (Falcon, Greninja)

 

[Nu~]

Thinkaman shed some light on the shield stun changes for projectiles. Our fruit are unaffected by the changes.

The hitlag multiplier's application to projectiles changes the theorycraft. This hurts these projectiles:

Falco Blaster #1 (0.1x)
Fox Blaster #2 (0.3x)
G&W Chef #3 (0.5x/0.1x/0.0x)
Greninja charged Shuriken #1 repeating hits (0.6x)
Bowser Fire Roar (0.5x)
Bowser Jr. Up-b 2 initial hit on group or aerial sourspot (0.5x)
Bowser Jr. Up-b 3 explosion (0.8x)
Link Arrow #1/3 (0.8x)
Charizard Fire Breath #1 (0.5x)
Luigi Fireball late hit (0.5x)
Luigi Iceball (0.8x)
Mario Fireball/Doc Capsule (0.3x)
Mario Fast Fireball/Doc Fast Capsule (0.0x)
Mii Gunner Grenade (0.3x repeating hits, 0.6x final hit)
Villager dash attack (0.6x)
Pac-Man Meteor Trampoline projectile hitbox (0.8x)
Pikachu Thunderwave (0.45x total)
Pikachu Thunder #1/3 initial hit (0.0x total)
Robin Arcfire #1/2/3 repeating hits + #1/2 final hit (0.5x)
Mega Man uair (0.2x)
Mega Man f-smash (0.3x)
Mega Man Crash Bomber explosion (0.3x)
Mega Man side-b #3 initial hit (0.7x)
Mega Man Leaf Shield #1/3 shield hits (0.5x)
Mega Man Leaf Shield #1/2/3 thrown hit (0.3x)
Mega Man Tornado Hold (0.8x/0.3x)
Rosalina Shooting Star Bit (0.2x)
Luma fair (0.3x)
Luma uair, late utilt, star bits #1 (0.5x)
Samus Bomb #1/3 initial hitbox (0.6x)
Samus Bomb #1/2 explosion (0.3x)
Samus Bomb #3 explosion (0.5x)
Sheik Needle Storm (0.8x)
ZSS Paralyzer #3 initial hits (0.6x total)
Toon Link Boomerang #2 initial hit (0.5x)
Toon Link Boomerang #3 (0.8x)
Toon Link Arrow #2/3 (0.5x)
WFT Hula Hoops #1 (0.0x)
WFT Hula Hoops #3 initial hits (0.5x)
WFT Condensed Sun Salutation uncharged (0.8x)
WFT Sweeping Sun Salutation (0.8x)
Yoshi up-b #1/3 hit (0.3x)
Yoshi up-b #1 explosion (0.3x)

...and helps these:

DDD Gordo #1/2/3 (1.5x)
DHD Discus #1/2/3 hit (2.0x)
DHD Discus #1/3 shots (2.0x)
DHD Discus #3 explode (2.0x)
DHD ZZS Shot (1.2x)
DHD Gunmen #1/2 (1.5x)
DHD Gunmen #3 (2.0x)
Fox Blaster #3 (1.2x)
G&W Chef #2 (1.8x/1.5x)
Greninja uncharged Shuriken #3 (1.5x)
Greninja charged Shuriken #1 final hit (1.5x)
Bowser Jr. Up-b 2 aerial sweetspot (2.0x)
Link Arrow #2 (1.7x)
Charizard Flare Blitz explosion (1.5x)
Charizard Blast Burn explosion (2.0x)
Lucas PK Thunder (1.5x total)
Mario Scalding FLUDD (1.2x)
Mii Brawler Iron Ball (1.5x)
Mii Gunner Flame Pillar final hit (1.5x)
Mii Gunner Charge Shot max charge (1.05x total)
Mii Gunner f-smash final hit (2.0x)
Villager Explosive Ballon Trip (2.0x) --- remember, these hitboxes were significantly nerfed in size this patch!
Villager Giant Timber tree fall (2.0x)
Pac-Man default hydrant fall and hydrant projectile (1.5x)
Pac-Man On-Fire Hydrant flame initial hit (1.2x)
Pikachu Thunder Wave (2.5x/2.1x/1.5x)
Pikachu Thundershock (1.5x total)
Pikachu Thunder #1/3 later hits (1.5x total)
Olimar Explosive Pikmin Pluck (1.5x)
Robin Elwind #3 initial hit (2.0x)
Robin Arcfire #3 final hit (2.0x)
Robin (El)Thunder (1.5x total)
Robin (El)Thunder+ (2.25x total)
Robin Speed (El)Thunder (1.2x total)
Robin Arcthunder(+) (1.5x/0.6x/3.0x total)
Robin Speed Arcthunder (1.5x/0.6x/2.25x total)
Robin (Speed) Thoron(+) (1.5x total)
ROB max charge beam #1/2/3 (1.3x)
Luma neutral-b #3
Luma Jabs 1/2/3, dash attack, bair, dair, dtilt, usmash, dsmash (1.5x)
Luma nair, fsmash (1.7x)
Luma Jab finisher, initial utilt (2.0x)
Ryu blue Hadoken (1.4x)
Ryu red Hadoken (0.25x/1.8x)
Samus Charge Shot #1/2/3 sub-max charge (1.5x total)
Samus Charge Shot #1/2 max charge (1.05x total)
Samus Charge Shot #3 max charge (3.3x total)
Sheik Penetrating Needles (1.1x) --- remember, these got a shield damage nerf
Sheik Paralyzing Needle (2.0x)
ZSS Paralyzer #1 (2.0x)
ZSS Paralyzer #2 charged (1.2x total)
ZSS Paralyzer #3 final hit (1.4x)
Toon Link Boomerang #2 late hit (1.2x)
Wario Bike #3 (1.2x)
WFT Jumbo Hoops (1.5x)
WFT Condensed Sun Salutation charged (1.5x)
Yoshi down-b 2 star (1.5x)
Yoshi up-b #3 explosion (1.5x)
Zelda Phantom #1/2/3 max charge 2nd hit (1.2x)

EDIT: FALSE ALARM. This doesn't count items. Fruit are still buffed

 

[Zage]

Hitlag isn't Shieldstun iirc. Fruit should be safer on shield?

 

[Nu~]

Hitlag isn't Shieldstun iirc. Fruit should be safer on shield?

Yeah, you're right. Sorry

 

[Froggy]

Hitlag isn't Shieldstun iirc. Fruit should be safer on shield?

I don't understand this. Are you saying that when fruits hit shield then do't cause shieldstun but hit lag instead?

 

[Zage]

I don't understand this. Are you saying that when fruits hit shield then do't cause shieldstun but hit lag instead?

Nope. I was just saying Shieldstun and Hitlag are two different things.

 

[dragontamer]

Hitlag isn't Shieldstun iirc. Fruit should be safer on shield?

In Blazblue, Hitlag and Shieldstun added together on projectiles.

Is this the same case in Smash4? Or does hitlag / shieldstun overlap or interact differently?

 

[NouveauRétro]

That's only 8 MUs that we can't use Dash Attack safely in. Out of 53 characters, though, I'm completely fine with this, even if I would prefer a Mario nerf. *grumble grumble*

Can't Marth Dolphin Slash us OOS too?

Well, that's definitely not everybody. For example, G&W can UpB out of shield in 5 frames of JC upsmash. Usmash's invincibility kicks in frame 4 and can armor the next hit AND punish by itself! His standing grab is 6f too.
So, NEVER use dash attack aggressively against G&W lol

 

[Nu~]

Well, that's definitely not everybody. For example, G&W can UpB out of shield in 5 frames of JC upsmash. Usmash's invincibility kicks in frame 4 and can armor the next hit AND punish by itself! His standing grab is 6f too.
So, NEVER use dash attack aggressively against G&W lol

But trampoline pulls you out of the attack (usmash)

The hit would have to come a lot faster

We beat G&W pretty badly anyway so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Neutricity]

Would anyone know how much safer each fruit is on shield?

 

[NouveauRétro]

But trampoline pulls you out of the attack (usmash)

The hit would have to come a lot faster

I mean if G&W shields the first/second hit, JC upsmash is a legitimate and guaranteed punish. The 2nd and 3rd hitboxes on dash attack are negated by upsmash.
Also I think the G&W MU is even. G&W's just don't know it that well.

 

[Neutricity]

Wait, why would you want to dash attack into a character with an invincible up-smash.
That game of risk-reward is one you may not want to play.

 

[Nu~]

I mean if G&W shields the first/second hit, JC upsmash is a legitimate and guaranteed punish. The 2nd and 3rd hitboxes on dash attack are negated by upsmash.
Also I think the G&W MU is even. G&W's just don't know it that well.

Ah, I was talking about if we land only the last hit.

I honestly don't see how that matchup can be even.... And please don't say his dtilt invalidates fruit

Edit: but we aren't here to discuss matchups! Let's bring this to the matchup thread if you want to continue.