Version 1.1.0 Changes Thread

[Big Sean]

I have been punished match after match because apparently Bowser either;

1. Won't grab the ledge and you just flash downward towards your death.
2. Completely bypasses the ledge and has to do the full "getting up" animation, which allows your opponent to bust your head open.


Just snap to the GD ledge like all the other characters in the game like normal. Why is this such a thing with Bowser? Holy moses.

I really don't have this problem. I've spent so much time practicing getting to the ledge though. Usually you want to fast fall to get to a point where you you can up + b without having to press b again, to perfectly snap the ledge. It's kind of a fun minigame to try to snap every single time. The only way you can't immediately snap is if you offstage fair. Even then though, they are offstage when you do it (hopefully) so by the time they get on stage, they shouldn't have much time to punish you. Like @ J Jerodak though you can just bair if you are that scared of it. Always remember though that the snap box can still be grabbed below and to the side of the ledge. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnaXWfUjPTA&feature=youtu.be&a for exactly where where it is.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Dunno why they nerfed Bowser's. Who pretty much has the worst roll in the ****ing game.

 

[pitfall356]

Replying to a few comments in this thread...

Any tough guy changes?

Checked for this myself, although you probably know by now - No changes appear to have been made. A buff to tough guy means that Bowser would have been made even heavier. Gosh, like Bowser needs that. It already takes 200% to kill the guy. Crouching regularly still armors Falco's laser, standing does not, and you still can't crawl/attack and retain the crouch armor. I'm assuming he isn't any heavier.

WHY DOES BOWSER STILL REFUSE TO GRAB THE LEDGE

If you are facing away from the ledge, he will often not snap to the ledge. There are two ways to fix this: Either use Klaw towards the stage to turn Bowser around, or when you use Fortress, make sure that you msh B enough to keep him level with the ledge so that he snaps to it once he stops rising. Even so, if you are too close to the ledge when you use fortress, there's a chance you'll fly over it.

Spotdodge, and rolls got nerfed by 1 frame for whatever reason.

New Spotdodge: 4-19 (From 4-20)
New Rolls: 4-20 (From 4-21)

This is great. While we now have 15 frames instead of 16, other fighters have 9 instead of 10. We lost less compared to everyone else - this should make it much easier to punish dodge spam now.

 

[Jerodak]

Would it be possible that up throw follow ups could have been made harder to D.I? If so, would that show up in the data mine or would it require testing?

 

[raromero89]

I've been working on comparing damage output and kill % for the past couple days. As a few of you mentioned on here, all the damage stayed the same. However, quite a few kill % have changed:

*numbers in parentheses are from the edge of the stage. All numbers were tested on Mario in training mode on final destination.

Jab combo: 218 (160) -> 215 (163)

Fsmash: 91 -> 72
Fsmash full charge sour: 101 -> 72
(Fsmash at ledge sour: 55 -> 89)

Dsmash: 132 -> 135
Dsmash full charge: 88 -> 92, angle also changed, as noted in previous posts.

U smash: 89 -> 92

Fthrow: 207 (150) -> 203 (153)

Bthrow: 189 (140) -> 190 (141)

Uair: 117 -> 128

I also noticed that Dsmash will send the opponent in the opposite direction Bowser is facing.
An odd thing that happened is on some attacks, kills from the ledge got nerfed while kills from center stage got buffed.

 

[Jerodak]

I've been working on comparing damage output and kill % for the past couple days. As a few of you mentioned on here, all the damage stayed the same. However, quite a few kill % have changed:

*numbers in parentheses are from the edge of the stage. All numbers were tested on Mario in training mode on final destination.

Jab combo: 218 (160) -> 215 (163)

Fsmash: 91 -> 72
Fsmash full charge sour: 101 -> 72
(Fsmash at ledge sour: 55 -> 89)

Dsmash: 132 -> 135
Dsmash full charge: 88 -> 92, angle also changed, as noted in previous posts.

U smash: 89 -> 92

Fthrow: 207 (150) -> 203 (153)

Bthrow: 189 (140) -> 190 (141)

Uair: 117 -> 128

I also noticed that Dsmash will send the opponent in the opposite direction Bowser is facing.
An odd thing that happened is on some attacks, kills from the ledge got nerfed while kills from center stage got buffed.

How were you able to compare percentages? Just wondering. It wasn't between 3ds and WiiU was it? Apparently the blast zones are different in those versions.

 

[raromero89]

How were you able to compare percentages? Just wondering. It wasn't between 3ds and WiiU was it? Apparently the blast zones are different in those versions.

No. I took note of all the percentages before I downloaded the patch on 3ds, and then downloaded the patch and compared.

 

[Jerodak]

No. I took note of all the percentages before I downloaded the patch on 3ds, and then downloaded the patch and compared.

Good idea, but I do believe that knockback increases would have shown up in the data mine wouldn't they? (@ KuroganeHammer ) Could someone cross reference with the WiiU version to be sure?

 

[ImaClubYou]

@ J Jerodak : my bowser play is based almost purely off reads and hardest possible punishes so I play very unorthodox. I don't believe I'll provide good insight with other bowser players.

For example, if I'm playing a link I'll wait for the boomerang windbox to bring me to him and do an aerial bowser bomb. I'll either cover the punish or break his shield as a result. They usually have no time to roll away since their busy pulling a bomb or charging an arrow. Worse case scenario they hit me and I live anyway because my bowsers DI is ****ing phenomenal.

Other than that, I'm a bowser that uses fire breath. A lot.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Good idea, but I do believe that knockback increases would have shown up in the data mine wouldn't they? (@ KuroganeHammer ) Could someone cross reference with the WiiU version to be sure?

yes it would, i dont know why he's getting differences, he must be comparing 3ds to wii u or something.

 

[Jerodak]

Well in either case @ R raromero89 your efforts are appreciated. Thank you for the time put into testing.

 

[raromero89]

yes it would, i dont know why he's getting differences, he must be comparing 3ds to wii u or something.

I do not own a wiiU. You can try the numbers yourself. I'm not sure why it wouldnt show up in the data mine, but these numbers are what I got. I have damage and kill % for all of bowsers attacks, but I'm not sure if the bowser boards already have a list for that already. If not, I'll gladly contribute.

 

[Jerodak]

@ R raromero89 @ KuroganeHammer If the k.o percents did change for raromero between versions and is not showing up for Bowser in the dump. I have a few theories as to why that may be.

1) He performed his test between a earlier version than 1.80 for his initial values.

2) The character he tested on had their weight decreased. However this is debunked if that would show in the data, and I imagine it would. Also it's questionable if the smash 4 dev team would ever make weight adjustments. I haven't heard of any at least.

3) The 3ds had the size of it's blast zones decreased.

I feel like this may be worth looking into a bit further just to be sure.

Also, this is what the phone just made me post in the set-up thread, sorry about that.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I have two 3DS but like, I'm so swamped right now in frame data work that I can't really check it out. I'm generally inclined to believe my data, and I don't think anything could live a fully charged late fsmash from Bowser at 100% from center stage regardless of what patch we were on.

And Dsmash should definitely be KO'ing earlier, not later.

 

[Jerodak]

Alright, fair enough. I imagine it must be tough with all these frame data changes you have to make, among other things.

 

[dav3yb]

Even though bowsersiding still kill him first, does it kill him first consistently across all stages? I know some stages would double ko and send you to sudden death. wondering if that's be fixed/changed...

 

[Jerodak]

@ dav3yb Yes, pretty much. However, I strongly recommend only using it with a stock lead on opponents that can't recover from it. Hopefully it will just get fixed soon and just function as a usable tactic.

 

[Hitman JT]

If they still haven't fixed it after 9 months and God knows how many patches, I wouldn't get my hopes up for it.

 

[Jerodak]

I still believe! It took 10 patches for Meta knight to get his sword trails fixed! Clearly they are just taking their time! How else will they be sure to catch everything?

 

[raromero89]

@ R raromero89 @ KuroganeHammer If the k.o percents did change for raromero between versions and is not showing up for Bowser in the dump. I have a few theories as to why that may be.

1) He performed his test between a earlier version than 1.80 for his initial values.

2) The character he tested on had their weight decreased. However this is debunked if that would show in the data, and I imagine it would. Also it's questionable if the smash 4 dev team would ever make weight adjustments. I haven't heard of any at least.

3) The 3ds had the size of it's blast zones decreased.

I feel like this may be worth looking into a bit further just to be sure.

Also, this is what the phone just made me post in the set-up thread, sorry about that.

Let me just clarify my first post. I tested all of my numbers on version 1.0.9 first. They were on regular final destination (non-omega). The opponent was a level 3 Mario in training mode. To find the center stage, I KOd Mario so that he respawned in the center. For the edge, I knocked him off stage and allowed the computer to default recover, which is with a jump that lands about 1/2 character space from the edge.
You guys can try the numbers yourself. Maybe the data mine didn't include every change? Or maybe it was other factors like jerodak suggested.
I thought it was worth noting, especially since Fsmash kills so early uncharged from center stage.

 

[S_B]

I've been working on comparing damage output and kill % for the past couple days. As a few of you mentioned on here, all the damage stayed the same. However, quite a few kill % have changed:

*numbers in parentheses are from the edge of the stage. All numbers were tested on Mario in training mode on final destination.

Jab combo: 218 (160) -> 215 (163)

Fsmash: 91 -> 72
Fsmash full charge sour: 101 -> 72
(Fsmash at ledge sour: 55 -> 89)

Dsmash: 132 -> 135
Dsmash full charge: 88 -> 92, angle also changed, as noted in previous posts.

U smash: 89 -> 92

Fthrow: 207 (150) -> 203 (153)

Bthrow: 189 (140) -> 190 (141)

Uair: 117 -> 128

I also noticed that Dsmash will send the opponent in the opposite direction Bowser is facing.
An odd thing that happened is on some attacks, kills from the ledge got nerfed while kills from center stage got buffed.

This...doesn't compute.

Do the CPUs in training mode (even when set to stand there) start DIing earlier if they anticipate needing to recover? That's the only reason I could see these attacks killing earlier from the middle but later from the ledge...