Utilizing Fox's Potential

[Valken]

Keep in mind that this is all basic strategy. I left out AT's in this one.



So lately I've been figuring out exactly what Fox's specialty is.
How to completely utilize his potential.

I came up with an idea.

I believe that Fox's greatest utility is his speed.
Please bare with me here...

Fox is a fast. Most of his moves are practically instantaneous and have little to no lag, but little to no hit lag and his mid-dodge doesn't last very long.

This means that Fox has the potential to dodge every hit and return with a quick lagless attack.
After his counter attack he can easily dodge again because his moves lack lag.

Fox can't combo very well, and if you try, you will only get punished.

Therefor Fox's potential is ENTIRELY dependent on your skill (in high level play.)

I don't mean you're skill with Fox.
I'm referring to your skill in the ability to read you're opponent.

If you can predict every one of your opponents moves you can avoid every single one with Fox do to his speed.

Other characters have little things that make this impossible. MK, for example, his mid-dodge has more lag than Fox's.

So basically, fast character with fast attacks and fast dodges.
There are other characters like this, so why Fox?

The secret to Fox's greatness is once again his Shine. However, in a completely different way.

Along with the ability to utilize his speed to avoid ever being hit, he has the ability to trick his opponent with Fox trickery better than any other character.

Shining people in an attempt to combo or spike is futile.

However, shining completely stops your momentum when moving. This can completely destroy what your opponent is expecting. A simple example is when falling down on an opponent and you see they are about to attack you, shine at the right moment to completely throw them off.

If timed right, you can potentially, have them attack where you were falling and simple float above the attack waiting for it to finish and you to counter attack with a down air, or whatever.

In conclusion...

Always play defensively, while rushing. Rush your opponents and put dodging there attack above everything else. Follow up with grabs, or jabs, or whatever you feel is the best option. Use this strategy along with the Shine of Trickery to completely overwhelm your opponent. They can't hit you, they can't predict you.

You are a fox, fast and tricky.



Ps: You're goal is to finish with an U/Smash. Don't try to edgeguard or shinespike. You're goal is to bring the fight to the center of the stage. If you knock someone off stage follow up with running off the stage to a second jump f/air. This will knock them up and allow them to land back on the stage where Fox is strongest.

 

[orintemple]

Keep in mind that this is all basic strategy. I left out AT's in this one.



So lately I've been figuring out exactly what Fox's specialty is.
How to completely utilize his potential.

I came up with an idea.

I believe that Fox's greatest utility is his speed.
Please bare with me here...

This is obvious, but fine.

Fox is a fast. Most of his moves are practically instantaneous and have little to no lag, but little to no hit lag and his mid-dodge doesn't last very long.

This means that Fox has the potential to dodge every hit and return with a quick lagless attack.
After his counter attack he can easily dodge again because his moves lack lag.

True, good point.

Fox can't combo very well, and if you try, you will only get punished.

WHAT!? Fox is one of the better comboers in the game. He can combo like mad (for Brawl terms) with his utilts and dairs. You only get punished when you mess up.

Therefor Fox's potential is ENTIRELY dependent on your skill (in high level play.)

I don't mean you're skill with Fox.
I'm referring to your skill in the ability to read you're opponent.

If you can predict every one of your opponents moves you can avoid every single one with Fox do to his speed.

Other characters have little things that make this impossible. MK, for example, his mid-dodge has more lag than Fox's.

So basically, fast character with fast attacks and fast dodges.
There are other characters like this, so why Fox?

The secret to Fox's greatness is once again his Shine. However, in a completely different way.

Along with the ability to utilize his speed to avoid ever being hit, he has the ability to trick his opponent with Fox trickery better than any other character.

This is a good idea. Putting emphasis on defense is the winning strategy. Fox can't out camp most characters so he needs to get inside to do any real damage or KO. Putting emphasis on making sure you aren't hit may make the battles longer but you will be much likelier to win.

Shining people in an attempt to combo or spike is futile.

I disagree with this statement to a point. It is true that shine spiking is harder but it still can be good for getting some character too far from the edge or under the stage. Someone like Ike is quite easy too shine spike.

However, shining completely stops your momentum when moving. This can completely destroy what your opponent is expecting. A simple example is when falling down on an opponent and you see they are about to attack you, shine at the right moment to completely throw them off.

If timed right, you can potentially, have them attack where you were falling and simple float above the attack waiting for it to finish and you to counter attack with a down air, or whatever.

In conclusion...

Always play defensively, while rushing. Rush your opponents and put dodging there attack above everything else. Follow up with grabs, or jabs, or whatever you feel is the best option. Use this strategy along with the Shine of Trickery to completely overwhelm your opponent. They can't hit you, they can't predict you.

You are a fox, fast and tricky.



Ps: You're goal is to finish with an U/Smash. Don't try to edgeguard or shinespike. You're goal is to bring the fight to the center of the stage. If you knock someone off stage follow up with running off the stage to a second jump f/air. This will knock them up and allow them to land back on the stage where Fox is strongest.

Overall pretty good post. The main idea here I see is to use dodging as your greatest asset. You won't be able to go around spamming dodges all day but you can definitely work on not getting hit, and with Fox it is dangerous to take hits due to his light weight.

DON'T GET HIT!

 

[Valken]

Sorry about that combo statement. It's still a little hard for me to admit them to be combos. I'm still on Melee mindset a bit. I'd see his combos as more of chains, or juggles.

Either way...

I was trying out other characters with fast attacks and quick dodges, like Pit. It just seems that Fox's foxtrot, falling speed, and shine, make it even more possible to bring the fight back to the drawing board.

Fox has the greatest potential to return the fight to the basic starting position. From there, with the proper strategy, he has the upper hand.

I think he was just equipped with "properties" that give him the greatest chance for winning via reading your opponent.

Do you think in the right hands Fox will be top tier? I mean, he will require a lot more work than any other character, but the ability to possibly avoid being hit more than any other character would certainly give him the possibility for top tier placement. Maybe...

 

[ThaDirtyG]

I don't know whether I think he'll be top tier, although right now I'm extremely confident that is tournament viable. I agree with everything in your post (after your clarification of the combo thing ) and I think his speed and air stall greatly improve his mindgames, which should allow good players to use him extremely effectively.

What has yet to be seen though is how he will hold out against some of the other top characters. For the most part I was say that despite his speed, characters with disjointed hitboxes like Marth, Lucas, and MK, pose a big problem for fox, and even with his mindgames it can be difficult to get around them. Those characters also have a ton of potential and could prove to be good Fox counters, making it much more difficult to be top tier.

All in all I think all of us (this is the fox forums afterall ) can agree that Fox is fun to play, and is an extremely good character with tons of potential. We have yet to see how well he will do in high level competitive play.

 

[Luigi_Legend]

Agree. Many are saying he's been nerfed, but to me, he's still one of the best in the game :].

 

[KosukeKGA]

Approach with Fair, Nair, Dair, or dashatk is what I usually do.

Then it's Utilts, lol

 

[ElSpaniard]

They Can Nerf Our Shine But They Can Never Nerf Our Hearts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Luigi_Legend]

They Can Nerf Our Shine But They Can Never Nerf Our Hearts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By far the best thing I've heard all day, lol.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Nah, Fox is one of the few characters in the game who still has actual Melee combos. Dair to jab flurry, Dair/down smash to up tilt at slightly higher % and Dair to up smash/firefox at much higher %.

these are real combos. not many other characters in the game have such things.

 

[KosukeKGA]

DSmash to Utilt? o.0

 

[leafgreen386]

I think he meant either dair to dsmash or dair to utilt...

Fox is capable of doing a lot of damage in a very short amount of time, even in brawl. As long as you don't let the pressure up, anyway. Evasion is and always was a big part of his game (well, dunno about ssb64, but I know even in melee his greatest strength was the ability to dodge something then immediately rush in to punish).

The thing is... I honestly don't agree that brawl has to be played defensively, especially with fox. Certain matchups... maybe, but the best way to stop someone from camping in my experience is to just never let up, and to be relentless against them. Fox can punish extremely well (compared to most brawl characters), and he is good at dodging, but once you're able to get inside, don't just back off. Play it close combat style until you're forced to retreat. Sorta like how you would fight marth in melee. Keep inside their range and don't let them breathe. Fox's multitude of fast attacks can be used just as effectively to pressure a foe and keep on them as they can be used to sneak in.

You may think that being highly aggressive in this game doesn't work, however it has been working quite well for me. There are numerous ways to cover your tracks while keeping on your foe. In melee, you would usually nair or dair -> shine to approach, knowing if you shuffled your aerial correctly, only a couple characters had the ability to punish you at all (and most certainly not with a shield grab). In brawl, if you end up attacking a sheild with an aerial, the same thing can get you out of trouble. A double/triple shine should eat away at their shield and knock them away, and prevent them grabbing or doing anything out of their shield for that matter, unless their name is marth with an upB, but even then, the shine has several invincibility frames now, and if their upB would hit you when you're invincible, you now have little lag while he's up in the air in a falling state (for those who haven't read the fox tech topics around here, double shines can be done in this game by timing your press of the B button so as to go straight into another shine and not crouch after the first shine ends, which actually has fairly short lag on it). It's safer than the neutral A combo, and a dair followed by a double shine will almost completely eat a shield. A dsmash after just barely missing will also work if they're not shielding (although a neutral A combo would work too if they were in front of you), or an immediate dash attack (dash+quickly cstick down to avoid fsmashing), as it's a large hitbox that comes out quick. Fox is hard to punish when played right.

Our same basic principles are the same: "Don't get hit." However, while you work on getting a bunch of separate hits, I'm working on chasing my opponent down as much as possible every time I do get a hit in, so they can never get back to a position they feel comfortable in. It's harder to do in brawl, but definitely possible, as long as you never give them a vantage point by which to punish you by and regain their footing.

Ps: You're goal is to finish with an U/Smash. Don't try to edgeguard or shinespike. You're goal is to bring the fight to the center of the stage. If you knock someone off stage follow up with running off the stage to a second jump f/air. This will knock them up and allow them to land back on the stage where Fox is strongest.

Bair, dsmash, and fsmash are all viable killing moves, too, and even uair if you can land it while they're high. You shouldn't forget about them, especially against heavyweights who are harder to KO off the top. I've also gotten a couple shinespikes in brawl. Sure, it's not the same as melee, but it still works. Bair in particular is great for edgeguarding, so suggesting not to edgeguard just because it's not as effective as it was in melee is simply not using your resources to their full potential.

Feel free to debate or add on to anything in this post. I'm curious as to what others think about playing aggressive in brawl.

 

[skuzzel]

Heh, I'm no expert, but here are my 2 cents

First off, we need to stop talking about how good or bad fox is now. Its really getting annoying. If you want to discuss how what tier he should be in, there are threads for that. Either play fox or don't.

Now as far as general fox strategy goes this is how my game play has evolved.

When I first got brawl I was still in melee mode, and whent insane offence all the time. All pressure, all day. Well, that really didn't work. Fox may be fast, but if your lag is greater than your oppenants hit stun you fail. It's as simple as that. Also, his lack up range and priority made a simple fact clear to me. If you do a move while your oppenant is doing a move, you lose. It's rather sad but true. From just about every angle, against just about every character, you will be outranged and out prioritized.

So I started working on my mind games. Trying to get my oppenants to make a mistake and then punish them for it. This works well for fox. His overall speed can make many an oppeant flinch, and then he is a great punisher. This is a side effect of another general trait of fox's. His versatility. Fox is versatile. I don't think he that fast. He's fast, he has low lag, but his best ability is that he can hit anywhere at any time. He is a sharpshooter. He can hit at any exact point around his body, very quickly. This is why he can punish so well.

This isnt to say that approaching isnt important or needed, it is in fact very imporant. But you cant go all speed all the time, you have to try make them think. If they know your going to run in full speed they will beat you, then again if they know you wont they will beat you again. You have stay unpredictable.

oh, and get a high tier main to back up your fox when you lose lol.

 

[^Eclipse]

I'm having trouble with maneuvering and spacing fox on the ground.
He's fast, but he's feels laggy at the same time.... I particular have a lot trouble dealing with fox's long initial dash.

Does anyone have any good advice on this?

 

[leafgreen386]

I'm having trouble with maneuvering and spacing fox on the ground.
He's fast, but he's feels laggy at the same time.... I particular have a lot trouble dealing with fox's long initial dash.

Does anyone have any good advice on this?

Well, you can adjust the distance of your initial dash by performing a quick dashdance. You only spend a couple frames going in the other direction, but you can up to halve the distance your dash goes. It seems like it's possible to shorten your dash more than you should be able to, although I'm not entirely sure what's going on, or if it's even just my imagination. I've gotten two completely different distances for what I thought was the same distance backwards each time when I was testing it out. The longer one seemed about right for a full dash+the small amount backwards, while the shorter one seemed much shorter (and is the version I've been using in combat).

Anyway, speaking of pivoting, if you need to move back slightly, you can dash backwards, and near the end of the dashdance frames, pivot. You'll be facing your opponent ready to strike back. When done right, it can give you the distance between the tip of the diamond in the middle of FD and the back of the arrow next to it, possibly more. Decent distance - a little less than some characters' wavedashes in melee. And of course you can pivot when dashing by interrupting your initial dash with another dash in the same direction, and during the dashdance frames of the second dash, set the stick to neutral.

I've been using each of these techs for spacing lately.

 

[super_bacon807]

They Can Nerf Our Shine But They Can Never Nerf Our Hearts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've got to quote that...

 

[Zero-sr388]

Shining people in an attempt to combo or spike is futile.

Only if you suck at it...
It's very useful for me, and I've been called super cheap for doing it...

This is against people who are I'd say are almost high level players.

 

[Valken]

Spacies can be Shinespiked pretty easily.

Other than that, almost every single character can simply attack you with more range than your shine when you go for the spike.

With all the characters floating so much, it's no skin off their back to throw an attack in their recovery.

Their are a few characters, however, who's recovery is extremely vulnerable to a shine.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

There have been quite a lot of long posts here, so I'm only going to respond to the first.

I've just started using Fox today (Man, I'm using way tomany characters, Marth, Lucas, Pit, and now Fox ).

Anyways, after fooling around and watching some videos, I've noticed how you can pull of a slightly easier victory. Though when playing things will always turn out differently.

I've found that sticking to the edges helps. Run in grab an opponent and get to to the edge or off it (even better). Follow him out and hit him with a shine, and then recover. I find this can know an opponent back far enough that they have trouble recovering. On Characters that have extremely good recovery (Pit Kirby, MetaKnight, etc...), I tend to short hop N-air, or short hop D-air, followed by a shine. You can get a fair amount of damage in. If you knock them off the edge and you know they'll make it back, use your blaster on them. Once they are between 90%-110% you can usually U-smash them to finish them off.

Sorry if this was obvious, just thought it may help someone out!

Hope this helps