uthrow to uair kill percents for all characters on Final Destination (up to date as of patch 1.1.5)

[conTAgi0n]

All percentages (finally) are up to date as of patch 1.1.5.

These percentages were tested in training mode on Final Destination. Training mode registers all of these as true combos. At the percentages listed, they are inescapable by means of jumping, air dodging, or attacking. Since it is training mode, all these percentages assume no DI, rage, or move staling.

The percentage listed is the percentage the character was at when grabbed.

Final Destination (on Wii U)​

In alphabetical order:

Spoiler

Bayonetta..........: 84
Bowser.............. : 98
Bowser Jr. .........: 93 (hit lands on Bowser Jr.), 96 (hit lands on clown car) - 139
Captain Falcon...: 97
Charizard...........: 90
Cloud.................: 92 (normal), 95 (with limit break)
Corrin.................: 90
Dedede..............: 109
Dark Pit.............: 87
Diddy Kong.......: 88
Donkey Kong... : 103
Dr. Mario...........: 87
Duck Hunt.........: 88
Falco.................: 81
Fox....................: 79
Ganondorf.........: 97
Greninja............: 82
Ike.....................: 96
Jigglypuff..........: 66
Kirby.................: 74
Little Mac..........: 86
Link...................: 92
Lucario..............: 93
Lucas................: 82
Lucina...............: 86
Luigi..................: 83
Mario................: 87
Marth ...............: 86
Mega Man .......: 95
Meta Knight .....: 77
Mewtwo ...........: 75
Mr. G&W ..........: 70
Ness ................: 82
Olimar .............: 76
Pac-Man .........: 83
Palutena .........: 80
Peach .............: 78
Pikachu ..........: 76
Pit ..................: 87
R.O.B. ...........: 93
Robin .............: 86
Rosalina ........: 73
Roy ................: 92
Ryu ................: 90
Samus ...........: 90
Sheik .............: 79
Shulk .............: 91 (normal, jump), 88 (buster), 145 (shield), 79 (smash)
Sonic .............: 85
Toon Link .......: 81
Villager ...........: 84
Wario ..............: 92
Wii Fit Trainer .: 82
Yoshi ..............: 86
Zelda ..............: 79
ZSS ................: 80

Grouped by percentage bracket, and in order of lowest to highest:

Spoiler

60 - 69
66
70 - 79
70,73,74,75,76,77,78,79​

80 - 89
80,81,82,83,84,85,
86,87,88​

90 - 99
90,91,92,93,95,
96,97,98​

100 - 109
103,109​

3DS (OBSOLETE, SOON TO BE DELETED)​

A good rule of thumb is that the combo kills approximately 5% later on 3DS.

I tested these back in 1.1.3 and am not planning to update them. They will be deleted soon.

In alphabetical order:

Spoiler

- ???
- 109
- 104
- 107
- 101
- 103
- ???
- 119
- 97 **
- 98
- 114
- 97
- 98
- 91
- 88
- 108
- 92
- 106
- 74
- 84 **
- 95
- 103
- 104
- 92
- 96
- 93
- 97
- 96
- 105
- 87
- 83
- 79
- 92
- 85
- 94
- 89
- 88
- 85
- 97 **
- 102
- 96
- 83 **
- 100
- 101
- 100
- 89 **
- 101
- 95 **
- 90
- 94
- 102
- 92
- 96
- 88
- 90

** sometimes kills one percent earlier, sometimes doesn't. I have no idea why.

Grouped by percentage bracket, and in order of lowest to highest:

Spoiler

70 - 79
74,79​

80 - 89
83,84,85,87,88,89​

90 - 99
90,91,92,93,94,95,96,
97,98​

100 - 109
100,101,102,103,104,105,106,107,
108,109​

110 - 119
114,119​

The timing window for this combo is noticeably narrower against Luigi than against any other character (at least for getting training mode to register it as a true combo). The percentage window at which it works is also significantly narrower for Luigi than for others (no larger than ~10% with no rage or DI). I recommend spending some time in training mode making sure you can perform this consistently if there is any possibility you will be facing a good Luigi in the near future.

Aside from Luigi, Ness and Lucas stand out as more difficult than average, and to a lesser extent Kirby, and maybe Jigglypuff and Toon Link as well. This is a non-exhaustive list, so there may be others you find tricky to hit as well. Since flubbing an uthrow -> uair combo can easily cost you the match, it is worth making sure that you can pull this off on basically anyone with high consistency and little warmup.

I found that uthrow to uair would only kill certain characters at the percentage listed when training mode registers a true combo. Also, for some characters, like Captain Falcon and Roy, this combo kills one or two percent earlier if you land the uair early in the true combo window. For my lower bound I have included the first number at which it kills regardless of when in the true combo window you land the uair, but you should keep in mind that hitting the uair earlier can occasionally kill a tiny bit earlier.

Of course the test conditions used here (no rage, DI, or move staling) will not typically be replicated precisely in a real match, but these percentages should still provide a very useful benchmark for knowing when you can kill confirm off a grab. Rage or a lower ceiling will make it earlier, good DI or a high ceiling will make it later.




WHAT STILL NEEDS TESTING:


I would also like to find some numbers on the effects of rage, maybe testing this at 50%, 100%, and 150%. Hopefully it scales linearly, in which we could come up with a pretty reliable formula for rage effects without actually testing every percentage.

Another useful project would be kill percentages for uthrow -> uair on all tourney legal stages at all platform heights.

I don't know if I will do thorough testing on every character for the above two projects, but I am planning to at least test a few characters at different weights and fallspeeds to find some "rules of thumb" (example: maybe from the bottom of Town and City it kills ~5% earlier or whatever).

Another set of percentages that would be useful to have would be uthrow -> bair. A list of characters, the lowest percent that it true combos at, the lowest percent it kills at from the edge, the highest percent it still work at, etc. However this would be a very time consuming project, so I probably won't get around to collecting much data on it. I encourage anyone interested in this to do some research and post it their own thread. I'd even be willing to help at least a little.

One project I abandoned was determining upper bounds for uthrow -> uair. This would be useful information, but training mode is unreliable for this (as I learned only recently), since it will register true combos at percents where opponents can actually airdodge (but not jump or attack) to avoid the combo.



By the way, a big thanks to 1PokeMastr for compiling this spreadsheet, which is where I took all of the original Wii U percentages from back during the 1.1.3 patch (and thanks also to Hitman JT for linking me to it).

 

[Xandercosm]

I'm calling for a sticky on this one.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

3DS has slightly bigger blastzones so...

And I believe there's a Wii U spreadsheet out there somewhere.

 

[arcticfox_14]

3DS has slightly bigger blastzones so...

And I believe there's a Wii U spreadsheet out there somewhere.

That's a very good point; I thought the percentages seemed a little high.

I've actually had the most trouble so far with toon link...I need to lab him specifically.

 

[conTAgi0n]

3DS has slightly bigger blastzones so...

And I believe there's a Wii U spreadsheet out there somewhere.

I don't have access to Wii U at the moment, but I would be willing to test those percentages and update the OP with them when I do. Of course if there's already a spreadsheet with that data out there, then I could just take it from there. I had looked and I couldn't find that information anywhere; can you direct me to it?

 

[Hitman JT]

3DS has slightly bigger blastzones so...

And I believe there's a Wii U spreadsheet out there somewhere.

Here it is

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Ty Le Troof

We should probably have some research on easy to remember rage numbers, 75%, 100%, 150%?

I know that most middleweights are KOd from 75% with maximum rage.

 

[33percentgod]

I have such a hard time with Kirby. I swear I can't reach him once he hits like 30% lol

 

[conTAgi0n]

Here it is

Thanks for sharing, that is very handy. I will update the OP when I get a chance and put the 3DS percentages in a spoiler or something.

I am going to hold off on adding any of the upper limits though, because I'm not sure they are right, unless maybe they are accounting for DI. I can get training mode to register a true combo on Mario at 140, and Sheik as high as 145+. The google doc lists their upper limits as 137 and 133, respectively. Also, at those percentages the timing is pretty tricky, and I believe fthrow/bthrow will typically kill by then, so I don't feel too bad leaving them out for now. Probably enough for Bowser players to just keep in mind that it uthrow -> uair true combo percentages generally overlap fthrow and bthrow kill percentages (I think).

 

[Hitman JT]

One figure that that spreadsheet is missing is Cloud w/ Limit Break, who is a tad heavier than normal and dies at 99%. Yeah.

 

[conTAgi0n]

I just updated the OP to include percentages for both 3DS and Wii U versions of the game.

Thanks again Hitman JT for providing the Wii U percentages. Always enjoy watching your Bowser by the way.

 

[Hitman JT]

I'm not the one who made the spreadsheet btw, I forget who did. I just keep the link handy.

 

[conTAgi0n]

I'm not the one who made the spreadsheet btw, I forget who did. I just keep the link handy.

I wasn't sure, that's why I credited you with "providing" the percentages, rather than finding or testing them. I'll update the OP to make this a little more clear. Thanks for linking me to them though.

 

[1PokeMastr]

I wasn't sure, that's why I credited you with "providing" the percentages, rather than finding or testing them. I'll update the OP to make this a little more clear. Thanks for linking me to them though.

Glad to know you enjoy my work ;D

 

[Big Sean]

You know what this needs? up throw -> up smash and up throw -> bair. The spreadsheet has some data on up smash, I don't think anybody has sat down and studied bair.

 

[pitfall356]

Is usmash ever a true combo? Can't you just DI + jump out of it, or hell, just jump out? DI in + frame 1-3 nair would also probably stuff usmash.

uthrow to bair could definitely use some work though, and I'd like to see something about uthrow to dair.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Is usmash ever a true combo? Can't you just DI + jump out of it, or hell, just jump out? DI in + frame 1-3 nair would also probably stuff usmash.

uthrow to bair could definitely use some work though, and I'd like to see something about uthrow to dair.

Usmash true combos on some characters, and Usmash has invincibility so at the right percent range (20-50%) It'll just beat any magical fast nair

 

[pitfall356]

I knew it was a solid followup but I wasn't sure it was a true combo.

Now I have to go test which characters it's effective on...

 

[Hitman JT]

It usually works on fast fallers like around a specific percent range so there's a start

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Up smash works mostly on heavies and fastfallers like Le troof said, but I think Shiek or Fox can still react out of it, however they cant challenge it with a fast aerial because of our invicibility.

 

[conTAgi0n]

CORRECTION: I was confused as to why and would die to uthrow uair at different percents, so I tested it on Lucas and it seems he doesn't die until 86, rather than 82 (as the OP formerly stated). I've updated OP with the correct percent. That raises the possility that a few other percents that need correcting as well though, so in my spare moments I'll start testing different characters to make sure there aren't any other errors. In the meantime I'll mark the ones that I've personally verified.

To add to Le Troof's list, uthrow usmash also works on . If someone figures out the numbers for some characters, I'll start compiling them here.

You know what this needs? up throw -> up smash and up throw -> bair. The spreadsheet has some data on up smash, I don't think anybody has sat down and studied bair.

I don't have time to test uthrow -> bair exhaustively on the whole cast, but I did some preliminary testing, and boy did I find some interesting things.
My main test dummy was . My primary technique was to turn around before jumping and executing the bair. I was able to get true combo uthrow -> bair all the way from 45 to 120. It's possible that it also combos below 45 (though I couldn't get it to), and it probably can combo higher than 120, I just didn't bother testing past that point. By that percentage you might as well just kill with the much easier uthrow -> uair combo anyway.

What really struck me is that uthrow -> bair kills Captain Falcon from the side of FD at around 73 percent (no DI or rage). For Sheik, that number is 62 (!!). uthrow -> uair doesn't kill Falcon on FD until 101, or Sheik until 85. Furthermore, you don't even have to be facing the right direction, because you can do either a turnaround bair or a non turnaround bair to send them in the right direction. I didn't test the non turnaround bair much, but it worked just fine at the percents I did try it at.

Sadly, uthrow -> bair is probably character dependent. I could not get it to work on or at any of the percents I tried. If it can true combo on them at all, I certainly wasn't able to find it. The good news is that I did confirm it to work on several important threats for at least some percents: , , , , , and . Those are the only characters I tried it on so far.

I was initially skeptical about the importance of uthrow -> bair, but after messing around with it, I can see this being a very valuable tool in some very important matchups. Maybe this isn't exactly the right thread to talk strategy in, but I think this is something you will want to keep fresh for early kills off the side.

I didn't test this with DI (though now I actually might have someone I can test this with at some point), but my initial impression is that even with good DI the opponent will not be able to avoid the combo, but you might have to adjust your jump trajectory. That's all speculative for now though, it needs more testing.

You are definitely right that we will want to do thorough testing on uthrow -> bair for the rest of the cast. I got some preliminary work done here, and I will do more when or if I have time, but I probably won't be able to explore it properly for the whole cast. If other people can pitch in and find some of these percents though, I'll be happy to compile them here.

EDIT: Thanks a ton 1PokeMastr for doing all the testing for Wii U! That's a lot of great work there.

EDIT 2: On further reflection, this uthrow -> bair stuff seems important enough to warrant its own thread, so I will copy this post into a new thread about uthrow -> bair. on second thought I think it's fine here

 

[1PokeMastr]

CORRECTION: I was confused as to why and would die to uthrow uair at different percents, so I tested it on Lucas and it seems he doesn't die until 86, rather than 82 (as the OP formerly stated). I've updated OP with the correct percent. That raises the possility that a few other percents that need correcting as well though, so in my spare moments I'll start testing different characters to make sure there aren't any other errors. In the meantime I'll mark the ones that I've personally verified.



EDIT: Thanks a ton 1PokeMastr for doing all the testing for Wii U! That's a lot of great work there.

EDIT 2: On further reflection, this uthrow -> bair stuff seems important enough to warrant its own thread, so I will copy this post into a new thread about uthrow -> bair. on second thought I think it's fine here

The reason you're getting different ko %s for wii u (Lucas 82 or 86) Is because my numbers are flat without di being used, but there's another column saying "add 6% minimum" this is to account for all di.

So please don't strain yourself trying to find the final di numbers (i.e a character dies 3% later vs another that dies 5% later) when you can just +6% to the base number and know they're dead.

And the reason Ness/ Lucas die at different damages is because they have a different fall speed and gravity.

When in training test with the cpu set to "control" as to avoid awkward di blips, then try to find the max di number (+6) in this case and you're done!

 

[conTAgi0n]

The reason you're getting different ko %s for wii u (Lucas 82 or 86) Is because my numbers are flat without di being used, but there's another column saying "add 6% minimum" this is to account for all di.

So please don't strain yourself trying to find the final di numbers (i.e a character dies 3% later vs another that dies 5% later) when you can just +6% to the base number and know they're dead.

And the reason Ness/ Lucas die at different damages is because they have a different fall speed and gravity.

When in training test with the cpu set to "control" as to avoid awkward di blips, then try to find the max di number (+6) in this case and you're done!

Oh man, yeah I should have been doing testing with the cpu set to "control." That's embarrassing. Thanks for the tip, I'll be sure to do that from now on.

However, having just retested it, I'm still getting 86 for Lucas on FD, even after setting it to "control." Could there have possibly been a typo or something in the spreadsheet? Otherwise I don't know what I'm doing differently, but I keep getting 86 as the lowest percent where it kills Lucas.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Huh.. that was indeed a typo on my end, now that is hilarious, also I finished up smash!
Really sorry about that typo lmao

 

[conTAgi0n]

lol no worries about the typo man, thanks for doing a ton of awesome work. When I get a chance I'll add those up smash percents to the OP too.

 

[conTAgi0n]

So obviously all of these numbers need to be revised now. I will update them a few at a time and mark the obsolete numbers with an asterisk.

By the way, in case anyone is wondering how damaging this uthrow change is, I can report some initial results. In general, uthrow -> uair kills about 4-5% earlier now, which is nice. Of course the concern is how this affects the range of percentages at which it works, and maybe whether it even still works on all characters.

On the second of those concerns, whether it works on everyone, I will say that I just tested it on Luigi and it still true combos and kills from 83 to at least 93 (if it's possible later than that, probably not much later). If the combo still works on Luigi for a 10 percent window, then I guarantee it still works on the whole cast.

As for the first of those concerns, how narrow the true combo range has become, as mentioned above it's down to roughly 10 against Luigi. That is pretty narrow, but landing the combo on Luigi was always much stricter than landing it on anyone else. For a more indicative test subject I used Ness and Villager, who are also floaty and trickier to hit with the combo than most of the cast. I confirmed it to work at least up to 105 on both characters. I couldn't get it to work at 110 on either. A ~20 percent window isn't too bad, though if you want to hit the combo reliably at that upper range, you should consider spending some quality time with it in training mode.

Against Sheik, I previously found the combo to kill from 85 to 145 or higher. Now I am finding it to kill from 79 to at least 115. It doesn't seem to work at 120 anymore.

I won't comment too much on my opinions of the change, but it should be clear that it's at least not a straight nerf. It lets us kill a little bit earlier but tightens the window during which we can do it a lot. However the window is still reasonably large for most characters.

Another thing to keep in mind is that uthrow -> nair starts comboing significantly earlier now. Previously I found ~30 to be the benchmark for true combing with uthrow -> nair. Now that number is more like ~15.

The real casualty might end up being uthrow -> bair. It probably still works on most of the characters it used to, but the percentage window seems a lot more narrow now. It kills Sheik at like 60 now at the side of FD, but I wasn't getting it to connect at 75 anymore.

Since I have to go right now, here are some initial 1.14 numbers, and I will update the OP when I get back.

Sheik - 79
Ness - 82
Luigi - 83
Villager - 84
Bayonetta - 84
Corrin - 90

First impressions on Bayonetta: I predict that our side of this matchup is going to be a grabfest. She is very susceptible to uthrow shenanigans. uthrow -> uair works at least until 120 and probably later, and prior to testing, she looks likely to be one of the easiest to uthrow -> bair for early kills. Add that to the fact that if she counters you, you die, and we have a lot of motivation to be grab happy against her.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

On the Bayonetta note, consider also that she seems to be in the lightests characters in the game, and people are saying that she has trouble killing. As for now, until people discover more about her and dont really know what to do with her, I would say that the matchup is even, or in Bowser's favor.

 

[GerudoKong]

So when people say the nerf makes it more like ding-dong, it's not very accurate because it still seems to have a wider window for it to work than that.

 

[LinkoHakurei]

I think i only got up to 3 up throw >up air true combo kills since the 1.14 patch so waiting for the air dodge became my main option in this situation but i had to save it for the last kill of the game or it would become too obvious...

 

[pitfall356]

Actually had to rely on a lot of my uthrow uair kills to secure stocks at my tourney today, felt a little lame but I was okay with that. Only dropped two matches, both during grand finals. Good time to be shown a challenge, I'd say.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Actually had to rely on a lot of my uthrow uair kills to secure stocks at my tourney today, felt a little lame but I was okay with that. Only dropped two matches, both during grand finals. Good time to be shown a challenge, I'd say.

Don't feel lame! U-Throw -> U-Air is one of our safest and earliest kill confirms, it'd be silly if you didn't take advantage of it when it worked.

 

[pitfall356]

I agree 100%. Just because it's lame doesn't mean it's bad, though. Early and safe are fine by me. Nothing wrong with playing lame.

 

[Arrei]

So... was this list just abandoned or was the complete version posted elsewhere?

 

[conTAgi0n]

So... was this list just abandoned or was the complete version posted elsewhere?

Yeah sorry, my life has been very busy. I am planning to return to this and update it properly, hopefully soon.

 

[conTAgi0n]

Finally I have gotten around to updating this list. Everything is now current with 1.1.5.

I abandoned the idea of including an upper bound for each character. Apparently, there is a fixed number of frames after which an opponent can air dodge (but not jump or attack) while technically still in hit stun, so at higher percentages, training mode registering a true combo isn't reliable anymore. It's worth practicing this on your own anyways, just to make sure you can get up there and in uair range before they are able to do anything but air dodge. Then at least you get a 50/50 off uthrow to close out the stock at higher percentages.

I also decided that since basically nobody plays competitively on 3DS anymore, and simply adding ~5% to the Wii U percentage is almost just as accurate, it would be a waste of time to exhaustively re-test percentages on 3DS as well.

I would also like to look at the effects of rage, as well as doing some testing on other tournament legal stages. I don't know that I will do exhaustive, character-by-character testing for those, but at the very least I am planning to test a few characters with different weights and fall speeds, and post some rough rules of thumb.

uthrow -> bair numbers would be interesting, since it works on a bunch of relevant characters still, but I doubt I am gonna get around to that on top of everything else.


EDIT: Also, if you have suggestions on how to make the formatting more readable or easier to navigate, please share them with me. I would have liked to put them in a table like in the community patch notes, but I have no idea how to do that.

 

[danyal999]

Finally I have gotten around to updating this list. Everything is now current with 1.1.5.

I abandoned the idea of including an upper bound for each character. Apparently, there is a fixed number of frames after which an opponent can air dodge (but not jump or attack) while technically still in hit stun, so at higher percentages, training mode registering a true combo isn't reliable anymore. It's worth practicing this on your own anyways, just to make sure you can get up there and in uair range before they are able to do anything but air dodge. Then at least you get a 50/50 off uthrow to close out the stock at higher percentages.

I also decided that since basically nobody plays competitively on 3DS anymore, and simply adding ~5% to the Wii U percentage is almost just as accurate, it would be a waste of time to exhaustively re-test percentages on 3DS as well.

I would also like to look at the effects of rage, as well as doing some testing on other tournament legal stages. I don't know that I will do exhaustive, character-by-character testing for those, but at the very least I am planning to test a few characters with different weights and fall speeds, and post some rough rules of thumb.

uthrow -> bair numbers would be interesting, since it works on a bunch of relevant characters still, but I doubt I am gonna get around to that on top of everything else.


EDIT: Also, if you have suggestions on how to make the formatting more readable or easier to navigate, please share them with me. I would have liked to put them in a table like in the community patch notes, but I have no idea how to do that.

Im having trouble even connecting up throw to up air. On characters like mario, ness, and more. Is there a certain way to double jump and a certain timing for the up air? Also is there a way to cover all di options?

 

[Big Sean]

Im having trouble even connecting up throw to up air. On characters like mario, ness, and more. Is there a certain way to double jump and a certain timing for the up air? Also is there a way to cover all di options?

Really you just need to go into practice mode and practice at both the low level limits and the high level limits of the characters. I think the trickiest bit is that you never want to mash jump. You want to time it right so that you get the earliest jump after the up throw animation. After that you hold jump for some variable amount of time depending on the character/percentage/rage and then (at least what I do) is press double jump and then A like immediately after one another.

Make sure to pay attention to how rage affects death percentages. Even though on paper G&W dies around 80% in practice you typically have enough rage by the time they are in kill percent, to kill them at 65% or even lower. So that may also a reason you are whiffing it.

As far as DI goes, it can be an issue, but for the most part you will almost always hit them even without a DI read.