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Using Down-Throw Effectively

R.Kefka

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
Messages
28
Right now, MK's most useful throws are his up-throw and his down-throw. His up-throw does one percent more damage and can be used to KO. His down-throw, however, has a more strategic use.

When you down-throw, you can react to your opponent's DI and create an opportunity for more hits.

DI Away: Dash-attack into up-tilt is the standard follow up here. If the enemy tries to air dodge out, they'll land on the dash-attack, which is good for you. If they keep waiting and they tech behind you, they can get out.

In this case, you can do a few things. You can dash at them, jump to stop your dash, and start a Mach Tornado. Use the speed of the tornado to chase them down and get some more percent. You also can pop them up onto platforms where you'll have an easy time chasing them.

The other trick is to dash in and shield to cancel your dash. Drop your shield, and follow their tech with another grab, a smash, or dash attack. The shield-drop lets you adjust for whichever way they choose to tech.

DI Towards: In this case, you can usually just land a forward-air. This is great, except that it doesn't do very much damage. I prefer to stay still and wait for them to respond (with an aerial or a dodge) and then grab them right as they hit the ground. This lets you repeat the down-throw, and also irritates them. Use the grab attack to help reset your damage decay during this string, and you'll do a lot for helping your KOs.

If they catch on to this though, they may just jump away and you won't get anything. That's why it's important to mix this up with forward-air or dashing up-smash.

No DI: I treat this the same as DI'ing towards me, except they're a little farther away. In this case I walk towards them a bit.

After any down-throw you can almost always chase with Mach Tornado. This is a good option if you want to a) annoy them or b) reset the damage on other moves. It's also an easy counter to air dodging and it beats a lot of aerials, so it's usually a safe follow-up.

Remember, your follow-ups are almost never guaranteed. You usually have to guess what the enemy will do if you want to keep hitting them.
 

Firestorm88

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 4, 2005
Messages
1,249
Location
Vancouver, BC
Question: Does each hit of the d-throw count as a seperate hit? What I mean is, would one d-throw (11 hits iirc) completely reset the stale move negation on every other attack you possess?
 

atlast4

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
5
Location
Toronto
i don't think that the down grab would count for as many hits as you see but its got to be at least 2
 

R.Kefka

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
Messages
28
Each hit while in the grab counts as a single hit towards reducing decay. The down-throw itself counts as one hit as well. Otherwise, it would be flat-out unfair.
 

C@sH Mooney

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
3,721
Location
Probably playing TF2.
Right now, MK's most useful throws are his up-throw and his down-throw. His up-throw does one percent more damage and can be used to KO. His down-throw, however, has a more strategic use.

When you down-throw, you can react to your opponent's DI and create an opportunity for more hits.

DI Away: Dash-attack into up-tilt is the standard follow up here. If the enemy tries to air dodge out, they'll land on the dash-attack, which is good for you. If they keep waiting and they tech behind you, they can get out.

In this case, you can do a few things. You can dash at them, jump to stop your dash, and start a Mach Tornado. Use the speed of the tornado to chase them down and get some more percent. You also can pop them up onto platforms where you'll have an easy time chasing them.

The other trick is to dash in and shield to cancel your dash. Drop your shield, and follow their tech with another grab, a smash, or dash attack. The shield-drop lets you adjust for whichever way they choose to tech.

DI Towards: In this case, you can usually just land a forward-air. This is great, except that it doesn't do very much damage. I prefer to stay still and wait for them to respond (with an aerial or a dodge) and then grab them right as they hit the ground. This lets you repeat the down-throw, and also irritates them. Use the grab attack to help reset your damage decay during this string, and you'll do a lot for helping your KOs.

If they catch on to this though, they may just jump away and you won't get anything. That's why it's important to mix this up with forward-air or dashing up-smash.

No DI: I treat this the same as DI'ing towards me, except they're a little farther away. In this case I walk towards them a bit.

After any down-throw you can almost always chase with Mach Tornado. This is a good option if you want to a) annoy them or b) reset the damage on other moves. It's also an easy counter to air dodging and it beats a lot of aerials, so it's usually a safe follow-up.

Remember, your follow-ups are almost never guaranteed. You usually have to guess what the enemy will do if you want to keep hitting them.
You could also dash attack--->Nair, which does a good amount of damage, and send them forward.

Why in gods name would you mach tornado? to annoy them? thats ******** lol.
 

ckm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
402
You could also dash attack--->Nair, which does a good amount of damage, and send them forward.

Why in gods name would you mach tornado? to annoy them? thats ******** lol.
er.... how about to deal a considerable amount of damage, and to lead into other combos? And whats wrong with annoying your opponent? Anything that gets them flustered is a good thing in my book.
 

Master Raven

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
3,491
Location
SFL
er.... how about to deal a considerable amount of damage, and to lead into other combos? And whats wrong with annoying your opponent? Anything that gets them flustered is a good thing in my book.
I can speak from personal experience that psychological warfare can actually effect the opponent's level of skill during a match. :(
 

Kiryu

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
15
You could also dash attack--->Nair, which does a good amount of damage, and send them forward.

Why in gods name would you mach tornado? to annoy them? thats ******** lol.
Downthrow-Mach Tornado is friggin excellent dude, I don't know what you're smoking. No matter what percent you will always land a hit and depending on your control possibly ALL of them. The tornado will catch them if they airdodge because it lasts longer then there invicibility.

Downthrow is my favorite MK throw because depending on the damage percent of your opponent you have so many options.

My favorites are Mach Torndao(at higher percents when they bounce to high), forward Air at low percents, and dashing after them to hyphen-smash. Hadn't considered utilt, will have to work that in.

Also, this might catch them off guard. I like to chase with a shorthopped Dair if I feel like they'll tech or if I think I can catch them in the air. If I perform a Dthrow near the edge of the stage this is my preferred method due to the amazing knockback on the dair. It hits them away and downwards putting them under the stage and vulnerable to MK dropping down and stage spiking them.

Great topic, the Downthrow is amazing.
 

R1ngo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
480
Location
South Dakota
You could also dash attack--->Nair, which does a good amount of damage, and send them forward.

Why in gods name would you mach tornado? to annoy them? thats ******** lol.

everyone..... please ignore everything this man has to say, that is all
 

R.Kefka

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
Messages
28
Cash Mooney: you amuse me, so I'll keep you around. You're one of the best trolls I've seen on SWF. I'm afraid you'll never be as good as 5150, however.

Mach tornado is *safe* given the height the down-throw puts your opponents at. It has a lot of control and duration which beats out dodges and tech rolls.

And it resets decay on other moves with killing power. This is never a bad thing.

Dash-attack -> n-air is a good option. The considerations I have is that using it too early can strongly hinder its KO effectiveness, and it lacks a concrete follow up to the n-air. The u-tilt puts the enemy above you and since u-tilt almost never KOs, that concern is neutralized.
 

C@sH Mooney

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
3,721
Location
Probably playing TF2.
Lol, a troll?

How the hell am I a troll?

And you talk to me as if I'm a pet or some stupid ****. ROFL

MM me on paypal with your godly dthrow into tornado option lol

dthrow -->dash attack --> nair/fair/uair is obviously better then dthrow -->mach tornado. the thought of people using mach tornado with everything is just ****ing stupid. It's a bad move. don't spam it. it deals barely any damage at all. it may annoy your opponent if they are bad. thats about it

I'm done. I should have stayed out of the scrub section, but at least I tried.

oh

posts like this coming from a smash director is why
Ringo, your one of the worst MK's I've ever seen, judging by youtube videos that is. you spam tornado just like everybody else, but even more. your spacing is horrible, you don't know how to combo if your life depended on it, and you have no mindgames. before you attempt to reference me in anything, or give advice to anybody, learn how to play this game.
 

ckm

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
402
Dthrow > dash attack > nair/fair/uair does not always work, just as R. Kefka stated in the first post in this thread. In fact, that was the whole f0ckin reason for this thread... to discuss different POSSIBILITIES and OPTIONS from dthrow. The main advantage of using MT after Dthrow (or after any other combo or as part of a combo) is that it is very hard to avoid getting caught in via an airdodge or DI. Just about any attack or combo can be avoided by a good player that knows what youre doing, and the tornado is difficult to avoid. It is also worth mentioning just because using the same combos every **** time gets pretty predictable and people will start reacting properly to your attacks if you dont switch it up.

Mooney, id love to see vids of your MK. I bet you are awesome.
 

C@sH Mooney

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
3,721
Location
Probably playing TF2.
Dthrow > dash attack > nair/fair/uair does not always work, just as R. Kefka stated in the first post in this thread. In fact, that was the whole f0ckin reason for this thread... to discuss different POSSIBILITIES and OPTIONS from dthrow. The main advantage of using MT after Dthrow (or after any other combo or as part of a combo) is that it is very hard to avoid getting caught in via an airdodge or DI. Just about any attack or combo can be avoided by a good player that knows what youre doing, and the tornado is difficult to avoid. It is also worth mentioning just because using the same combos every **** time gets pretty predictable and people will start reacting properly to your attacks if you dont switch it up.

Mooney, id love to see vids of your MK. I bet you are awesome.
Just about, lets say 80 or 90% of the people who post in this sub forum will not switch up what they do.

Sure, switching up is what good players.

See what I did there?

ckm, I am awesome. I'm one of the few MK players who are bored enough to post here, and have a clue what the **** they are talking about.

Infact, I'm so bored, that I'm posting on smashboards at 5:25 AM.

Peace.
 

Heroes_Never_Die

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 3, 2008
Messages
265
Location
Pennsylvania
I'm gonna agree with C@sh here, MT is an option, but it's not a very good one. A lot of people can bat you right out of it because MT won't reach them fast enough. Its damage isn't very good, and it's follow-up potential is crap.
 

giuocob

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
233
Location
Cincinnati, OH
It's a bad move. don't spam it. it deals barely any damage at all. it may annoy your opponent if they are bad. thats about it
You lost me right about here.

By the way, I would also like to see some videos of you playing, since you're clearly miles better than anyone here. I bet we could all learn a lot from your genius.
 

C@sH Mooney

Smash Master
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Messages
3,721
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Probably playing TF2.
why would you prefer to do one move, over comboing your opponent into a gimp? thats ****ing stupid lmao.

I'm gonna agree with C@sh here, MT is an option, but it's not a very good one. A lot of people can bat you right out of it because MT won't reach them fast enough. Its damage isn't very good, and it's follow-up potential is crap.
My god, hes actually got it! good ****
 

giuocob

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
233
Location
Cincinnati, OH
why would you prefer to do one move, over comboing your opponent into a gimp? thats ****ing stupid lmao.
Well, let's see.

Imagine this scenario. You're near the middle of Final Destination, facing your opponent, who has about 15% damage. You grab and Dthrow him. Here, you could jump up and land a virtually guaranteed tornado, which, if done correctly, can get around 25% damage. Alternatively, you could jump into your aerial game with an Ftilt, which is much easier to get away from. Also, you're not going to be gimping anybody at 15% unless they REALLY screw up. In addition, you're going to get predictable if you Dthrow -> Ftilt everytime. I'm not saying that Dthrow -> Ftilt never has any use. But Dthrow -> tornado is certainly a great choice in a multitude of circumstances.
 

C@sH Mooney

Smash Master
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Messages
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Probably playing TF2.
I wouldn't do ftilt at at like 19%, because depending on my opponents character, that wouldn't get them off the stage for a gimp.

tornado nor ftilt would be good choices for a player who knows how to gimp correctly.
 

R1ngo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
480
Location
South Dakota
Lol, a troll?

How the hell am I a troll?

And you talk to me as if I'm a pet or some stupid ****. ROFL

MM me on paypal with your godly dthrow into tornado option lol

dthrow -->dash attack --> nair/fair/uair is obviously better then dthrow -->mach tornado. the thought of people using mach tornado with everything is just ****ing stupid. It's a bad move. don't spam it. it deals barely any damage at all. it may annoy your opponent if they are bad. thats about it

I'm done. I should have stayed out of the scrub section, but at least I tried.

oh



Ringo, your one of the worst MK's I've ever seen, judging by youtube videos that is. you spam tornado just like everybody else, but even more. your spacing is horrible, you don't know how to combo if your life depended on it, and you have no mindgames. before you attempt to reference me in anything, or give advice to anybody, learn how to play this game.
Oh i'm so sorry that you have to belittle everyone to make yourself feel better, For the most part i have only made positive posts in the MK community and have a very popular video thread and an Advance tech thread, you have miles and miles of posts calling people scrubs, noobs, bad, and ********, if you really are so good, it would be great for you to post vids to help us scrubs, noobs ,*******, and all around bad players, especially me. so when you come off your high horse please let us know. And stop with the negative posts, they ruin a good community.
 

R.Kefka

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
Messages
28
Cash: ****, I had hope for you. You *seemed* to be a troll, but it turns out you're just trollbait. You can't even tell when somebody is getting a rise out of you.

But just because I like talking about this game, I'll treat you like you're big people.

Let's assume you *weren't* trolling and you genuinely think that d-throw tornado is a legitimately bad option. You are ignoring its pros--relative safety, high mobility, and a large number of active frames--in order to hash and rehash its cons--limited follow up and low damage. Look at another technique; shield-drop down-smash. It's a very powerful technique. But if you focus only on one aspect--comes out fast, good range and knockback--and don't pay attention to the cons--decay and predictability--you will reduce its usefulness. Likewise, ignoring pros in favor of cons takes moves from your repertoire.

Why would an opponent get annoyed by the mach tornado? Because, as you asserted, it is perceived to be a "noob move." If you get hit by the same move ten times in a row, it's frustrating. If you're playing a Meta-Knight who seems to be nothing but a spammer (and you're LOSING to it) you will become irritated. Irritated people play impatiently and make mistakes.

Additionally, MT does have good follow-up provided you are on a platformed level. Low ending lag while on the ground and the final pop-up hitbox give you good options when beneath platforms. You can force air dodges, land SLoops, up-air combos, shield-drop smash or shield-grab against aerials.

I also have lost a lot of faith in your reading comprehension skills. My first post was multi-paragraph and I dealt with numerous other options first. Down-throw MT was an afterthought. You construed it as my main follow-up (when in fact I use it rarely) and then targeted it as my main one. I hope you have a reading tutor.

The goal of this thread was to discuss as many viable options as possible. In order for MK to reach and remain at the top of the meta-game, his players need to explore and innovate. I'm very thankful that you wanted to explore the weaknesses of the tornado--it is indeed an overused move.

(And honestly, an online moneymatch? How silly can you be? Like I said, you make me smile)

Have a pleasant day.
 

Chaco

Never Logs In
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May 21, 2008
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I have to agree with C@sh, Dthrow into mach tornado is a bad setup. A better option would be Dthrow into dash attack then into a nair.

And R1ngo, no offense, but your spacing is bad and you SD like all the time. I picked up MK yesterday and even I don't do that.

But still ICs ftw.
 

R1ngo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
480
Location
South Dakota
And R1ngo, no offense, but your spacing is bad and you SD like all the time. I picked up MK yesterday and even I don't do that.
Hmmm.... i forgot that i had claimed eternal greatness earlier in the thread, what? i didn't? oh my mistake. i apologize
 

Chaco

Never Logs In
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Hmmm.... i forgot that i had claimed eternal greatness earlier in the thread, what? i didn't? oh my mistake. i apologize
Well, I'm just saying you MK would pwn if it wasn't for the SDs.
 

Chaco

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Hoorah! Thats one of the biggest problems with Meta, conquer that and your biggest feat is done. Well, not exactly, but whatever. :p
 

C@sH Mooney

Smash Master
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Probably playing TF2.
Olimar is an extremely easy matchup. Get him off the stage and you win. If you have a chance to gimp him, take it. Outspacing olimar is easy as well, since is range is garbage. You can't combo him that well, but the small hits you deal him from out spacing make up for that. When he throws pikmen at you and just camps, downsmash in place(lulz). I honestly think this is one of MK's best matchups if you know what your doing. It's just so easy to kill him.
 

R1ngo

Smash Journeyman
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Apr 1, 2008
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Olimar is an extremely easy matchup. Get him off the stage and you win. If you have a chance to gimp him, take it. Outspacing olimar is easy as well, since is range is garbage. You can't combo him that well, but the small hits you deal him from out spacing make up for that. When he throws pikmen at you and just camps, downsmash in place(lulz). I honestly think this is one of MK's best matchups if you know what your doing. It's just so easy to kill him.
... the olimar in question is not a normal olimar ...
 

Rockin

Juggies <3
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You could also dash attack--->Nair, which does a good amount of damage, and send them forward.

Why in gods name would you mach tornado? to annoy them? thats ******** lol.
Okay, as much as Mach Tornado is a good move, I'm gonna have to agree. Not because it's a bad follow up, but someone can actually Smash DI (or air dodge) and like actually counter attack before you try to do anything. Like, I know a friend who I faced his link with. I did a Mach Tornado and (I think he quickly air dodged) and did a hook shot to my face, stunning me for a combo.

IMO, I would sometimes use a Drill on them. I think it does much better damage and you can track down their DI. Nairing and Fairing is also effective.
 

giuocob

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
233
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Cincinnati, OH
IMO, I would sometimes use a Drill on them. I think it does much better damage and you can track down their DI. Nairing and Fairing is also effective.
This is a rather unfortunate argument. It sounds like you're talking about tornadoing instead of drilling. Mach Tornado has the potential to do A LOT more damage than Drill Rush. It is possible, and probably easier, to follow their DI with MT. Also, because the hitbox of the drill is so much smaller, it is possible to completely airdodge out of it. With the tornado, if you're using it correctly, they'll airdodge at the best possible second and still land in the middle of the vortex.
 
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