UPDATED: I think I discovered something new about Ganon, but...

[CluelessBTD]

FIRST OF ALL, I'M NOT SURE IF IT'S NEW. I've been active on the Yoshi boards lately and haven't given Gdorf attention, but in case you guys remember me I was that guy who brought the Recovery Lag glitch to attention and announced the Wizard Foot Cancel.

THE MAYBE "NEW" THING:
I noticed that both the Up-B and Side-B could be lag cancelled. Utilizing the recovery lag glitch, if you use a B move to grab the ledge, everybody knows that you will get 16 frames of lag when you land on the ground next. However, if you grab the ledge using Side-B and then land on the ground from Up-B or Side-B, their original lag is actually notably reduced.

Let me explain why I think this happens. Notice that when you perform an aerial gerudo from high up, when you land during your FallSpecial animation, the lag is only half that of the Dark Dive's landing lag. That's normal. However, this shortened lag carries over to the Dark Dive if you grab the ledge with the Gerudo. I'm sure this is a crappy explanation, but just ask questions.



P.S. Just as a side note in case some ppl don't know this, those of you who want to run off the edge to Dair without fast falling, just run with the analog stick angled diagonally and hit the c-stick down when you get over the edge. You won't fast fall and you'll get a quick Dair spike.

 

[deadpoe7]

Wait a minute, I believe it was Deity that discovered the wiz kick cancel. Unless you are talking about something different than what I'm thinking. Are you talking about wiz kicking towards the center of the stage from the edge and going into the aerial cancel animation?

 

[Gleam]

He's talking about Wizard Foot Cancel. Which is using the Wizard Foot at the right stop so that when you end it off the stage, you have no lag and can do any aerial attack.

 

[deadpoe7]

Ah, I see. Good then, carry on.

 

[CluelessBTD]

He's talking about Wizard Foot Cancel. Which is using the Wizard Foot at the right stop so that when you end it off the stage, you have no lag and can do any aerial attack.

This is what I was talking about. I originally called it the WFC, but you may have heard Sliq's renamed version, Murder Kick Cancel.

 

[deadpoe7]

Ok. So are you saying that if I gerudo grab the ledge and then drop and do my dark dive onto the stage, I'll have less lag than if I just dark dived in the first place? I'm a little conflugled.

 

[CluelessBTD]

Ok. So are you saying that if I gerudo grab the ledge and then drop and do my dark dive onto the stage, I'll have less lag than if I just dark dived in the first place? I'm a little conflugled.

No, you have it right. However, it works the same way even if you roll onto the stage and perform the Dark Dive or aerial gerudo at any point afterward, as long as you don't land on the ground from any other attack beforehand.

 

[deadpoe7]

So the lessened lag actually stays with you until you land via another move? That just might prove very useful indeed.

 

[CluelessBTD]

So the lessened lag actually stays with you until you land via another move? That just might prove very useful indeed.

It stays with you until you exhaust it by landing on the ground. It only affects Up-B and Side-B

 

[PK-ow!]

What if I Dark Dive -> ledgegrab, stall with Gerudo, then land after a FallSpecial?

So to describe this mechanic with a finite state automaton (not exactly). . .
The portions that are unexpected, or changed from the intuitive by this mechanic, are highlighted in salient colours. I'm dispensing with second jumps to simplify things (they would loop back to whatever state you're in, except without a second jump; it could be represented with a pushdown stack). Also, every place with {Land} should also have {Do Aerial}, but we know the lag effect is only for >B and ^B, and is deleted whenever you land, so again I can ignore it.


State 1: In the air, in control of Ganny
{Aerial Gerudo} => State 2; {Dark Dive} => State 3; {Land} => END

State 2: Gerudo FallSpecial (visually identical with state 3)
{Grab a ledge} => State 4; {Land} => State 5

State 3: Dive FallSpecial (visually identical with state 2)
{Grab a ledge} => State 6; {Land} => State 7

State 4: "Gerudo Ledgegrab" (looks like a ledgegrab)
{Drop/Jump} => State 8; {Stand/Attack/Roll} => State 9

State 5: Experience landing lag equal to X (< Y).
{No action} => END

State 6: "Dive ledgegrab" (looks like a ledgegrab)
{Drop/Jump} => State 10; {Stand/Attack/Roll} => State 11

State 7: Experience landing lag equal to Y (> X).
{No action} => END

State 8: "Gerudo freefall" (looks like state 1)
{Aerial Gerudo} => State 2; {Dark Dive} => State 2; {Land} => State 5

State 9: "Gerudo stand" (looks like you're standing)
{Jump/Fall} => State 8; {Dark Dive} => State 2

State 10: "Dive freefall" (looks like state 1)
{Aerial Gerudo} => State 12; {Dark Dive} => State 3; {Land} => State 7

State 11: "Dive stand" (looks like you're standing)
{Jump/Fall} => State 10; {Dark Dive} => State 3

(Transition to state 7 on land is the already known mechanic of experiencing Dark Dive's landing lag after using it no matter what you do. It's the fact that grabbing the ledge at this point - being just after you used a Gerudo Dragon - puts you in the Gerudo ledgegrab condition that's special)

State 12: "Post-Dive-ledgegrab Gerudo FallSpecial" (looks like FallSpecial)
{Grab a ledge} => State 4; {Land} => State 7

(really, the whole state is weird in that it exists).


And you said Y is about twice X. (Dive.lag = 2 * Gerudo.lag)

So you're saying Ganon's FallSpecials work like this?

 

[hyperstation]

So...to get this straight...

When we grab the ledge with >B or ^B, we get 16 extra frames of lag upon the NEXT time we touch the ground after being the air. This might occur by jumping up onto the stage. It also might occur if we get onto the stage by doing a get-up attack, a roll or a regular get-up, in which case the next aerial maneuver we perform will be plagued with 16 frames of landing lag.

If this is correct so far, nod your head. Good.

Now, you're saying that if the first time we touch ground following an aerial is by doing an aerial gerudo (>B) or a dark dive (^B), the 16 frame landing lag will be reduced by some value, yes?

A question: In your OP, you say that you can reduce dark dive's lag by doing a gerudo onto the ledge before hand. Conversely, you can reduce gerudo's lag by doing a dark dive ledge grab. What about a gerudo ledge grab and an aerial gerudo as the next aerial. What about two dark dives? Do these combinations work too?

---------------------------------

To PK-OW's post above -> What you did there really helped me visualize all the different "states" happening in the various situations under scrutiny here. However, I THINK that your diagram is saying something different than what the OP was saying. In a nutshell, your diagram says: "if you ledge grab with >B, your next aerial will see X frames of lag. if you ledge grab with ^B, your next aerial will see 2X frames of lag." It doesn't address what I'm trying to understand from the OP about how lag is reduced if you followup either B ledge grab with a ^B or >B aerial.

Jeez, this stuff is crazo. SWOLL, you and PK-OW mindmeld to figure out what is correct and what in fact is happening or (in the case of PK-OW) not happening.

 

[Blad01]

Wow, if this is true, ledghop > Fair could be really good :D

 

[CluelessBTD]

Wow, if this is true, ledghop > Fair could be really good :D

NO NO NO! The only landing lags that are reduced are the ^B and >B.

NORMALLY:
-Try this, do an aerial gerudo close to the ground (no FallSpecial). The lag is regular
-Do an aerial gerudo high up (FallSpecial). The lag is short

WITH GLITCH:
-Grab the ledge using gerudo. Roll onto the stage. Do an aerial gerudo close to the ground (no FallSpecial). Amazingly, the lag will be shortened.
-Grab the ledge using gerudo. Roll onto the stage. Do a Dark Dive. When you land, the lag will be shortened.
-This also works if you do a ledgehop or ledgedrop with these attacks.

 

[Blad01]

NO NO NO! The only landing lags that are reduced are the ^B and >B.

This message Muddled up me a little bit :

When we grab the ledge with >B or ^B, we get 16 extra frames of lag upon the NEXT time we touch the ground after being the air.

 

[deadpoe7]

OKAY, SO:

NO NO NO! The only landing lags that are reduced are the ^B and >B.

WITH GLITCH:
-Grab the ledge using gerudo. Roll onto the stage. Do an aerial gerudo close to the ground (no FallSpecial). Amazingly, the lag will be shortened.
-Grab the ledge using gerudo. Roll onto the stage. Do a Dark Dive. When you land, the lag will be shortened.
-This also works if you do a ledgehop or ledgedrop with these attacks.

Now, I understand. This goes into the category of "Those little things that sometimes add up to produce big results."

 

[Hyrus]

1) Grab the ledge with side-B. Doesn't matter if you regrab the ledge with a simple hop.

2) Dark Dive or Air Gerudo onto the stage. Alternatively, standup/attack from the ledge and do Dark Dive or Air Gerudo, but don't jump prior to the move being done.

3) Significantly reduced landing lag.

 

[Serph]

So...to get this straight...
A question: In your OP, you say that you can reduce dark dive's lag by doing a gerudo onto the ledge before hand. Conversely, you can reduce gerudo's lag by doing a dark dive ledge grab. What about a gerudo ledge grab and an aerial gerudo as the next aerial. What about two dark dives? Do these combinations work too?

Grabbing the ledge with Dark Dive doesn't seem to affect anything. It has to be Flame Choke.

I've been testing this out and it definitely works. A short-hopped Flame Choke usually has more landing lag compared to a higher one, but by grabbing the ledge with it beforehand your next FC will have the reduced lag no matter what. That includes hopping straight from the ledge and into a Flame Choke.

So FC'd ledge > reduced lag on next Dark Dive or short-hopped Flame Choke

Also, Dark Dive's landing lag is still reduced even after connecting with the shock grab part. So you'll push away and still land faster.

 

[Pierce7d]

I don't play Ganon, so the little light I'm going to try and throw onto this situation may be entirely false. If so, please forgive me.

Marth's Dolphin Slash suffers a similar tragedy. When he UpB's to the ledge, anytime after when he goes from the air and lands on the stage, he will suffer the stupid lag frames as if he Dolphin Slashed and landed on the ground. However, we realized that these lag frames could be eliminated if we autocancelled any of Marth's moves into the ground, as that would erase the lag, and instead use the auto-cancelling animation. Essentially, as Marth, I would just Fair, Nair, or Uair as I next hit the ground, to avoid the lag.

I believe since your forwardB move has a similar unique landing animation, it causes this lag to be cancelled as well. I also think you could simply auto-cancel one of your aerials (I realize this is much trickier with Ganon). I would suggest simply standing from the ledge, and then immediately thunderstomping.

 

[Serph]

An auto-cancelled Ganon aerial still carries the lag hangover, unfortunately.

Pikachu seems to suffer from this as well, but only if he grabs the ledge after using two quick attacks.

Edit:

Quick note: if you connect with your first Flame Choke (as in, plucking someone out of the air) having just FC'd the edge, that doesn't count as your reduced-lag Flame Choke. It hangs over until you land the move without grabbing anyone with it.

 

[CluelessBTD]

I was wanting to test this with other characters but didn't have time cuz my newborn daughter started crying.

That Marth auto-canceling thing is different because none of Ganon's moves can be auto-cancelled, to my knowledge at least not effectively. However, to safely eliminate our recovery lag after sweetspotting with Up-B, we can whiff the short-lag aerial flame choke away from the opponent. This is better than just hopping and suffering from the 16 frames of lag.

 

[deadpoe7]

Congratulations on yo baby!

I don't understand the term "whiff." What does it mean?

 

[TP]

Congratulations on yo baby!

I don't understand the term "whiff." What does it mean?

"Does not connect."

 

[hyperstation]

This poor thread just got left in the dust after the Flight of Ganon thread took off. I didn't forget about you though, my old friend.

I sat down and played around with this for a minute, and I have to say, I'm really happy to know about this. This makes the ganon's ledge game - which is admittedly pretty lacking - a little bit tighter and certainly more informed. Thanks, Swoll.

A situation where I see this becoming routinely good is when you go for a ledgehop ganoncide and end up on the ledge again having missed your opponent. When that happens, a little light should go on in your head. And yes, I still ganoncide like a mofo.

In short, in one day, two great bits of information percolated up from the depths of hell to grace the ganon boards.

 

[CluelessBTD]

This poor thread just got left in the dust after the Flight of Ganon thread took off. I didn't forget about you though, my old friend.

I sat down and played around with this for a minute, and I have to say, I'm really happy to know about this. This makes the ganon's ledge game - which is admittedly pretty lacking - a little bit tighter and certainly more informed. Thanks, Swoll.

A situation where I see this becoming routinely good is when you go for a ledgehop ganoncide and end up on the ledge again having missed your opponent. When that happens, a little light should go on in your head. And yes, I still ganoncide like a mofo.

In short, in one day, two great bits of information percolated up from the depths of hell to grace the ganon boards.

Thank you very much sir, and yes, I knew it would steal my fire as soon as it came out. I can do it without the WizKick cancel very easily now, Ganon is BROKEN :D

 

[hyperstation]

Ganon is breaking down barriers. Young Barack Obama and Old Man Ganon are holding it down in '08. One of them is going to hold the highest office in the world when people said a black man couldn't. The other is jumping to the highest heights in Brawl when people said a fat man couldn't.

 

[hyperstation]

Just so you know, Swoll, this thread has helped my Ganon a lot. It has made me hyper-aware of my options to reduce - or in this case, USE - my recovery lag. Thanks, homie. You've done good.

 

[CluelessBTD]

Just so you know, Swoll, this thread has helped my Ganon a lot. It has made me hyper-aware of my options to reduce - or in this case, USE - my recovery lag. Thanks, homie. You've done good.

Glad I could help, lets show people that Gdorf is a viable character when used properly.

 

[PK-ow!]

I want to revive this thread before it's a total necro.

As said, it got devoured by Flight of Ganon.

I want to confirm how it works. Is the 'flowchart' correct (my post page 1)?

Can we cancel the extra lag by autocancelling dair?