This is beeing said by several members of this site.
What do you think?
Please keep this clean. I'm not here saying falcon is better than bowser, I'm here to debate.
I, actually, dont think falcon is better than bowser, but I'd like some reasoning from both parties.
Bowser's standpoint:
What do you think?
Please keep this clean. I'm not here saying falcon is better than bowser, I'm here to debate.
I, actually, dont think falcon is better than bowser, but I'd like some reasoning from both parties.
Bowser's standpoint:
One of the few things that was actually mentioned in the BBR discussion was Bowser's UpB, and for good reason. It a frame 6 move, it has invincibility from frames 1-5, it can be done directly OoS, it does 16%, and it has a huge hitbox. The Fortress is one of the best, if not the best OoS move in the game. However, the Fortress isn't only useful for punishing OoS. There are also several other perks to having the Fortress, many of which are rarely used. One of them is using the Fortress to flat out beat your opponent's attacks. Simply running up to your opponent and Fortressing when you predict an attack sounds idiotic, but there's actually a good reason in attempting it. Running up to your opponent and Fortressing creates a silly rock-paper-scissors game that is usually more in Bowser's favor then your opponent. There is reasoning behind this.
1. If the opponent tries to swing at Bowser, his attack will most likely lose to the Fortress. This is a win.
2. If the opponent spot dodges, he will get hit by the later hitbox of the Fortress for negligible damage, but with enough knockback and stun so Bowser will be able to slide away unpunished. This is a tie.
3. If your opponent shields, then Bowser will be punished. This is a loss.
Even when you look at the Fortress like rock-paper-scissors game, it still seems like a very large risk for only moderate reward. However, combined with another one of Bowser's perks, this becomes a deadly 50/50 guessing game which can lead into big damage. The other perk? Grab releases. Your opponent's defensive option that covers the Fortress will be beaten by a grab, and vise versa. This is very applicable for Bowser because he almost always has more damage output then his opponent, and he definitely has the weight advantage. If you trade hits with Bowser, then Bowser will usually always come out on top for the aforementioned reasons. If a Fortress is shielded, then Bowser is going to get punished. The punish might even lead into 30% or more. However, Bowser taking 30% is not the same as his opponent taking 30%. Due to the weight difference, 30% usually means more to the opponent then it does to Bowser. Bowser's high damage output from his grab usually also works wonders here, since a grab release chaingrab can do upwards of 30% to nearly every character in the game. Simply pummeling and regrabbing your opponent when they break out racks up damage pretty solidly. The outrageous part is that if the opponent is above 35% or so, there's absolutely nothing the other player can do to escape as long as the Bowser player does not screw up. However, forcing a ground release over and over again to continue the chaingrab is extremely difficult. It requires paying attention to your opponent's percent and your opponent's mashing, and you must time your pummels accordingly so that your opponent always ground releases. However, the results are brutal. With proper usage, a chaingrab from Bowser can do upwards of 50%, and it leads into guaranteed followups to boot. Do you want more percent? Then Klaw them afterward for even more damage and follow up accordingly. Do you want to kill your opponent? Then Dtilt them afterwards.
Let's talk about Fortress OoS again. A common argument against Fortress OoS's usefulness is that it only really works against punishing unspaced moves. Almost every competent player will be spacing his attacks well, so it seems like Fortress OoS would be useless right? Wrong. Bowser has several tools that seem like they were designed to ruin spacing; the very spacing that is encouraged because Bowser has Fortress OoS. One of these tools is obvious, the other sounds absurd. The tools I am speaking of are Ftilt and Fsmash.
Ftilt is a good anti-air move. While it comes out a bit slow with a 9 frame startup, it's still fast enough to punch people out of the air, especially if you angle it upwards. As people have already said, Bowser's fist is huge. It's massive. Unless you're up against Ike's Fair or something, Bowser's fist will just plow through most aerials. The reason why this move never really loses against most aerials is simple. During the first 8 or so frames of startup, Bowser's arm is completely retracted. During the 10th frame, his entire arm extends, hitbox and all. That's why it's near impossible to strike his arm during the startup animation of the move, because his arm extends along with the hitbox in one frame. This, combined with the Ftilt's good range, allows Bowser's Ftilt to either beat out or trade with most aerials. And like I said before, trading against Bowser are usually always in Bowser's favor.
Fsmash on the other hand, isn't an obviously useful move like Ftilt is. Saying that Fsmash is an amazing move seems almost laughable. It's extremely slow and punishable, so how can it possibly be good? There is one aspect of Fsmash that redeems it: the drawback. Similar to characters like Sonic and Yoshi, Bowser draws his frame backwards before swinging forward. Unlike other characters with drawback, Bowser's drawback is massive. It's so big that it can be used to dodge moves and counterattack for big damage. It sounds silly and is extremely hard to visualize unless you've seen it before, but it works. Example, Snake throws out a well spaced Ftilt, and Bowser dodges with the drawback animation of his Fsmash and punishes. Another example, Marth throws out a very well spaced Fair. Bowser's Fsmash has such a huge hitbox that it can even punish Marth after dodging it with the drawback. Hell, it can even punish a perfectly spaced Ike Fair, which is hilarious. Again, since Bowser is a character that forces spacing because of his Fortress OoS, it just creates more opportunities for him to throw out an Ftilt or swing his gigantic head forward. Unlike the Fortress, both of these moves do not punish your opponent for spacing poorly. Rather, they punish your opponent for spacing well. Being able to punish good habits is a very useful defensive option.
Another topic that was brought up was Bowser's speed. While he does walk slow, Bowser runs pretty quickly on the ground. Plus, he moves quick in the air as well. Combined with his infinite second jump, he is extremely agile and fast while airborne. Bowser's second jump can keep bowser moving at his maximum aerial speed, and it gives you very high amounts of aerial control. It allows you to bait attacks, control space, adjust your aerial spacing, and even approach if you want to. Bowser can also infinite jump after falling through platforms, which gives him some extra mobility on common stages with fall-through platforms, such as Battlefield and Smashvile. The Klaw can also be used to change the direction Bowser is facing in the air, since the Klaw can be used to turn Bowser around without losing any air speed. Being able to turn around during those occasions that Bowser will be going offensive is a useful perk, especially since you'll sometimes want to be able to jump at your opponent and instantly go into a Bair or something.
The Klaw itself is an amazing move. Or to be more precise, the aerial Klaw is an amazing move. The hitbox on the aerial version is massive and will outright beat anything that isn't heavily disjointed. This is not a mere aerial attack. This is an aerial grab. Your opponent can't just sit in his shield all day against an aerial Bowser, because he could easily just fall on you with a Klaw. An interesting property of the Klaw is that you barely lag when you land with it. So if your opponent spot dodges the Klaw, Bowser can follow up with grounded moves right after the Klaw. Bowser is not limited to simply following up with grounded attacks either. Bowser's infinite jump can also be used to jump away or attempt to cross up your opponent if they spot dodge or roll away from the Klaw. It gives Bowser a crude form of offensive pressure. The Klaw is one of the main reasons why Bowser is not, and should never be bottom tier. Having an air grab in this game is a rarity, and Bowser happens to have the best one. By far.
tl;dr
Bowser is bad. He is not bottom tier bad.
