Up-tilt

[batistabus]

There's nothing wrong with a character having useless moves. I think Ganon is really solid, despite having two basically un-usable (or extremely situational) moves.

My only problem is that Up-tilt is...too useless? Not only is it weaker than Warlock Punch, but it sends opponents flying at an almost identical angle. These moves could be useful for 2 on 1 team battles, but Warlock Punch better guarantees that you won't hit your teammate.

I'm not asking for a decent Up-tilt or anything like that, I just request that the angle at which the Up-tilt sends opponents is changed. Make it shoot either directly upwards or at a really low angle. Even if it's still extremely situational to hit, it might be a preferable option over Warlock punch on stages with lower ceilings or if you're right near the edge.

Besides that, Ganon is a blast to play and I have no other complaints/suggestions.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Unless something has changed since Melee, Utilt sends the person hit more vertically, which means it's better at KOing Jigglypuff, which is the only thing it's used for anyway. In other words, in Melee Utilt was better than Warlock Punch.

 

[SpiderMad]

Unless something has changed since Melee, Utilt sends the person hit more vertically, which means it's better at KOing Jigglypuff, which is the only thing it's used for anyway. In other words, in Melee Utilt was better than Warlock Punch.

What about a reverse Warlock Punch though? Isn't that more powerful, possibly making it more powerful than U-tilt (In Melee)?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I haven't really experimented with those. Does it have a greater vertical knockback?

 

[G13_Flux]

reverse warlock punch wasnt in melee. CF and ganon gained that ability in brawl. utilt can sometimes be good for edge guarding with good timing. but overall i find it one of the most useless moves in the game, right in front of jiggly puffs sing.

 

[tangyzizzler]

Am I the only one who thinks it's lame that Ganon has 2 useless (and redundant) moves?

I hope they decide to rework at least one of his moves; it seems unfair that so many other heavy-hitters in the game got reworked so that all of their moves are viable (Donkey Kong's rolling Dash Attack, Ike's...everything, Bowser's armor, etc)

 

[RaphaelRobo]

reverse warlock punch wasnt in melee. CF and ganon gained that ability in brawl. utilt can sometimes be good for edge guarding with good timing. but overall i find it one of the most useless moves in the game, right in front of jiggly puffs sing.

The problem with using Utilt for edgeguarding is it's much easier, and usually just as good, to go for an aerial (e.g. SH tipman), etc or a Down angled Ftilt. There are enough better options that it's not worth using Utilt for edgeguarding.

And my problem with WP/Utilt is that they're very similar. I think one of them should be a completely different, but just as useless move. They both make pretty good taunts, though. What with showing off Ganon's crotch and whatnot.

 

[G13_Flux]

haha yea i think anybody would choose SH > dair off the edge over utilt, im just saying if you were to choose utilt, it COULD work. But yes i agree, if ganon was to recieve any kind of buff they would need to look to those two moves somehow. maybe for instance, make and aerial wizards foot lodge the oponent in the ground (DK side B) so that you can combo into those moves. or even just rework them in total.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

maybe for instance, make and aerial wizards foot lodge the oponent in the ground (DK side B) so that you can combo into those moves. or even just rework them in total.

That might make Wizard's Foot a little too good though. It's already a great move, I don't think it really needs to lock an opponent in place on hit. Especially not if it lasts long enough to pull off a successful Utilt, considering how long Utilit's charge time is. And hell, if they did make it do that, it'd probably be better to use Warlock Punch instead.

 

[BRLNK88]

Wizard's Foot has already been buffed, its fine.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Wizard's foot is already great in this game. Grounded seems to have a bit less lag than Melee, and Aerial is great. If you hit someone with it, they get spiked down to the ground, and the the ground impact from Aerial DownB knocks them back up. Then you can combo out of it. There's no way it needs to be better than it currently is.

 

[TemPesT-]

behold the reverse wp punch IN melee. it's just what they called hitting with the hitbox in the farthest back of the punch, it has more knockback.

 

[JUGGERNAUT043]

Unless something has changed since Melee, Utilt sends the person hit more vertically, which means it's better at KOing Jigglypuff, which is the only thing it's used for anyway. In other words, in Melee Utilt was better than Warlock Punch.

reverse punch is stronger than the volcano and takes less time

 

[JUGGERNAUT043]

on the uptilt thing i think if u manage to land one on an opponent, unless there on the other side of the stage they should almost die instantly, if shielded it should be a instant shield break, sound unfair? and for the aerial wizkick, who thinks it should have a hitbox to match his leg length? melee hitbox size but brawls length to the foot, right now it cant tie with any up specials hardly, standardtoaster argued that it and other fast spikes have a negative disjoint, when i presented that falco doesnt have that he never replied

 

[Ace55]

Yeah agreed, if they want to keep uptilt and WP as is they should both break shields instantly and be (far) stronger than rest. Even then they would still suck.

I'd rather just have a new uptilt though.

 

[JUGGERNAUT043]

i would too, even if it was just a stronger ax kick like falcons like some have suggested, that was just my quick fix idea that iv tried with a buddy of mine lol still hard to land but if u do its worth it, especially on a jiggs, o% insta-dead

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

Yeah agreed, if they want to keep uptilt and WP as is they should both break shields instantly and be (far) stronger than rest. Even then they would still suck.

I'd rather just have a new uptilt though.

I agree with this post completely. Hopefully he'll just get a entirely new utilt in a later version.

 

[leelue]

standardtoaster argued that it and other fast spikes have a negative disjoint, when i presented that falco doesnt have that he never replied

While this sounds like a classic case of an unprepared PMBR member avoiding the issue, it isn't. He probably meant moving spikes, as most moves that move the character have negative disjoints.

 

[Zeros]

I agree with most of the posters here, that no Character should have a move thats almost completely useless, and Ganon has two

Change I would like to see to Warlock Punch:
Allow one to freely change it's direction at will to make it harder to ever-so-easily roll around it.
Balance this change by removing the "Damage Increase" Ganon currently gets from turning it.
(I'm sure the Damage Increase is there but OMG its so slow, this move could never realistically land on anyone except in rare Team Play cases lol)

And/OR

Weaken the Up-Tilt but make it faster maybe? Or maybe add a Super Armor-Counter effect to it, making it so if an opponent tries to make a chop for Ganon's nuts while he's doing Yoga, they get super punished? Would add some serious utility to a severely useless move but if the idea is taken, the Up-Tilt would probably still need to be weakened a tad. like maybe 75% of its current power if the counter is activated? Or have the move "Auto-Charge" making it so the longer the foot stays up, the stronger it is?

Fully Drawn Foot = Full Damage
Interrupted/Counter Foot = Damage based on Charge time?

What do you guys think about those ideas? Those two moves are currently used .02% of the time with Ganon so something's gotta be done. xD

 

[Ace55]

I like the way you think. Making it a chargeable move with knockback ranging from roughly Falcon's uptilt to the current knockback would be a great change.

Still screams 'Falcon-Clone' though.

 

[Airrider]

Maybe a sheik-style up-tilt (athlete baby) or a Mario punch in the air.

 

[BTmoney]

Just make it at least as bad as Falcon's uptilt.

Consider that possibly satirical.

I am however 100% pro making the move not completely useless. Uptilt is however the best taunt in the game.

 

[teluoborg]

Either make the startup roll cancelable,

OR

make the 30-or-so last startup frames super armorish,

OR

make it a 2 input move, kinda like Snake's Ftilt but with the first part (the foot going up) dealing little or no damage.

 

[| Big D |]

Ive landed Dthrow > uptilt, seems like a legitimate tech chase.

 

[Zeros]

I like the way you think. Making it a chargeable move with knockback ranging from roughly Falcon's uptilt to the current knockback would be a great change.

Still screams 'Falcon-Clone' though.

Well, to be clear, Ganon started as (and still is) a Falcon-Clone. It would be nice to keep some unique qualities, but Ganon's movements are roughly 80-90% Captain Falcon. Just Slower/Stronger + Non-Fast Fall

Ive landed Dthrow > uptilt, seems like a legitimate tech chase.

I'll have to try it out but I'm having trouble seeing this combo land just because of how ridiculously slow the move is. Perhaps mind-reading a D-Thrown tech whilst on a platform? But there are probably several options that'll be easier to stick out of a D-Throw (like a Chain-Throw but I personally DESPISE Chain-Throws...) Or perhaps D-Throw on platform > Tech Read + Aerial Choke Slam [Causing victim to bounce] > Jab [Tumble] > Fair (love Jab > F-Air combos...) Or any other inventive bouts of Villainous intent. It just doesn't seem worth it to me, the move is super strong but so sloooooowww

 

[| Big D |]

Yeah I landed it while on a platform, the other person dropped below the platform and rolled away but it still manage to hit him, was god like.

 

[MVP]

on some characters i'm able to (very rarely ) time up-tilt when they're trying to recover. Characters that have limited recovery like falcon, ganon, and boozer. One option i do at high % is back throw into up-tilt

WARNING: MOST LIKELY DOESN'T WORK AGAINST HIGHER LEVEL PLAYERS

 

[Ace55]

on some characters i'm able to (very rarely ) time up-tilt when they're trying to recover. Characters that have limited recovery like falcon, ganon, and boozer. One option i do at high % is back throw into up-tilt

WARNING: MOST LIKELY DOESN'T WORK AGAINST HIGHER LEVEL PLAYERS

Nah it works against anyone when they can't mix up their recovery at all, for instance Falcon when he can only barely make the ledge. Doesn't really make it less worthless though. It's only real use is killing Jiggs/after a shield break. Which just makes Warlock Punch even less useful.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Suggestion for a change:

 

[himemiya]

Make it chargable and knock opponents upwards.

 

[Zeros]

Suggestion for a change:

See I like that Idea, its Unique, Quick, Good Stopping Power (Knock Back) but its not a Lethal Knock Back unless it happens to clock you out into the abyss... Looks like a nice clean surprise attack and is a wonderful way to finally bring out that #@%#ing sword he always taunts us with in the Victory Poses lol.

However, there *MIGHT* be a problem I think:
Good Lateral Range. It appears to have a range just shy of Marth's Tilt, which I personally don't mind since I play Ganon but some people might not like Ganon having a neat surprise with good Anti-Air/Anti-Platform properties that can be used without Ganon needing to use a Jump.

I personally Love this Idea because Ganon has difficulties dealing with certain matchups (Projectile Heavy) so having a tool like this can really add more options for dealing with those nuisances with the correct pressures. (Dodge Projectiles > Get into the opponent's comfort zone > when opponent thinks about moving or freaking out, swat him with the halberd! lol) Plus, it removes a Useless move from Ganon's roster which is awesome lol.

But Ganon is pretty powerful so helping him can be tricky, hes a big guy that's blessed with potentially high speed. I dangerous combo So if this idea were implemented, there might be some crying.

Love the idea, man. Hope other people take to it

 

[leelue]

Ive landed Dthrow > uptilt, seems like a legitimate tech chase.

Unless you punched your opponent in the nose to disorient them during the throw, there's no way this really happened.

 

[SpiderMad]

So only one move of his would use his sword? Isn't that kind of weird

 

[SpiderMad]

reverse punch is stronger than the volcano and takes less time

Thank you, but that's for Melee right?
Hold on this is going to get confusing. Which the reverse warlock punch in Melee just means "the closest hitbox towards ganon" hit? So what about P:M then, does P:M Ganon have the same attribute of Brawl where reversing the WL punch makes it stronger: but also hitting with the "melee reverse WL Punch" meaning the closest hitbox also make it stronger as well? So if you Reverse WL Punch and hit with the closest hitbox is that stronger than it would be in Melee since there's no Brawl reverse effect that it made stronger?

Would hitting with the weakest part of a normal warlock punch still be stronger than the up-tilt?

 

[| Big D |]

Unless you punched your opponent in the nose to disorient them during the throw, there's no way this really happened.

Match starts at 1:43:46

It is the greatest match ever, last stock is the uptilt, this match right here is golden too.

Definition of "Brawl Smart".

 

[leelue]

I fail to see evidence where the ganon player didn't punch the bowser in the face

 

[JUGGERNAUT043]

Thank you, but that's for Melee right?
Hold on this is going to get confusing. Which the reverse warlock punch in Melee just means "the closest hitbox towards ganon" hit? So what about P:M then, does P:M Ganon have the same attribute of Brawl where reversing the WL punch makes it stronger: but also hitting with the "melee reverse WL Punch" meaning the closest hitbox also make it stronger as well? So if you Reverse WL Punch and hit with the closest hitbox is that stronger than it would be in Melee since there's no Brawl reverse effect that it made stronger?

Would hitting with the weakest part of a normal warlock punch still be stronger than the up-tilt?

in brawl reversed WP was stronger than the melee punch and normal punch and the shoulder hitbox makes it its strongest form in damage and could kill at around 10 damage from usually mid stage on tourney legal, mid air still being the better, volcano kick was stronger than the punch in melee killing very early if u landed it, the brawl volcano kick in brawl had trancendent sour spots and the hitbox was massive but damage output was lower than the punch but it killed better at higher damage. that was probably equally as confusing lol

 

[JUGGERNAUT043]

i really dont think project m is really trying with ganon to much, they put him as melee form minus 2 moves, brawl did actually give ganon some buffs on launch trajectory and hitbox size and animations that matched him better, i thought project m would give ganon the best bits from both games like they did to the other heavyweights( hitbox size,power, shield damage) but along with dedede hes kinda just being left alone

 

[leelue]

i really dont think project m is really trying with ganon to much, they put him as melee form minus 2 moves

If you count dacusing as a move, that's pretty substantial. And I'd say that ganon's forward B is the biggest buff given to any character in the top half from melee. Eazy.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Suggestion for a change:

I want it !!