Unofficial Kirby Gripes Thread

[Frost | Odds]

Let me immediately preface with the fact that the current iteration of Kirby is my favorite character in any smash bros, ever. PMBR, you've done a fantastic job. Thanks again for making Kirby feel so fluid and fun. I just think it's probably a good idea to have a place to post specific facets about his design that might be a little off. In my humble opinion, Kirby is probably bordering on tournament viable, but might have a lot of problems keeping up with much of the cast.

Without further fanfare, let's open it up:

• Neutral B used to swallow projectiles such as Waddle Dees, and Diddy's peanuts (there's probably others of which I'm unaware) feels way, way too slow -much slower than getting hit by the attack itself, or simply suffering shieldstun. It seems as though it actually has *negative* frame advantage in these cases. This is very much a situation of the solution being worse than the problem - much like using Mewtwo's Confusion to deflect projectiles in Melee: which you guys quite rightly fixed for his PM iteration.

Spoiler

I think that having a solution like this to projectiles is very reasonable and in-theme for Kirby, especially considering that he is himself a highly mobile character without any form of projectiles himself. Kirby's design seems to essentially encourage use of a wide variety of slightly-mediocre but versatile tools to add up to something that's more than the sum of their parts by playing to his opponent's weaknesses. Allowing neutral B to swallow projectiles quickly would be very fitting. It would also be very thematically appropriate (and tactically interesting) to allow him to spit these back as stars. I don't, however, think that the choice to spit would be nearly as important as a simple dramatic increase to the speed of his swallow animation for projectiles.

Dedede and Diddy are already very hard matchups for Kirby; having the suck work as unintuitively as it currently does, only damages the situation further.

Not being able to waveland after shooting the Diddy Hat popgun also feels gross; but I'm sure you guys are working on that already.

• It seems like there's very little reason to use the upsmash under basically any circumstance- the hitbox of Fsmash seems bigger and better, with more kill power even on maps with far blast zones.

I could just be bad, though: this will require further testing.

• Dsmash could use a bit more range, maybe? Sweetspotting this feels like it's probably unnecessarily difficult.

Spoiler

Kirby's only real grounded approach option (the dash attack) typically has 1 of 3 results: you pass waythrough the other guy (or his shield) with a crossup, you hit him with the sweet spot and open up an aerial combo; or you get hit/grabbed out of it. If you're approaching from the air, you have more options, but an aerial suck sends the enemy away; aerials will push him away (esp. with new shield mechanics), and will almost never find yourself near enough to hit with a proper downsmash. Almost none of Kirby's combos lead into a ground attack, so hitting with his smashes is almost strictly a hard-read or tech chase situation; and the range on Dsmash combined with its lack of benefit compared to Fsmash makes it a super undesirable risk for its potential rewards.

There is one obvious exception: the drill. I think drill->grab might be (but maybe not) a true combo, but am pretty sure that drill->any smash is absolutely not; so we can safely ignore it.
In principle, I'm completely okay with hitting his smashes be pretty much dependent on hard reads; but Kirby's *awfully* short on other options to get kills once opponents get to high %'s. The hammer is great and all (i've practiced B-reversing/wavebouncing/fastfalling the hammer at various heights for a combined total of probably 8 hours now), but actually hitting with it is next to impossible against a competent opponent who's playing carefully at high %'s.

Which brings us to:

• Grabs: there doesn't appear to be any reason to ever use any throw other than dthrow.

Spoiler

*with the exception of high% bthrows offstage into edgeguards. Even facing off the stage at high %, Dthrow sends opponents at a much lower, more edge-guardable angle than up or fthrows. F-throw is, as far as I can tell, completely useless 100% of the time. It does next to no damage, sends opponents way out of combo range, and quite high, making it ineffective as an edge-guard opening.
I can understand having a few useless throws on a character who otherwise has a lot of options for every scenario (Sheik and her uthrow are an easy example), but Sheik's dthrow and bthrow are both super useful in general *and* can lead to kill moves at kill percentages. Even her Fthrow is situationally useful to setup edgeguards.

According to what I perceive to be Kirby's design philosophy as noted earlier, imo it's totally okay for Kirby to have a mediocre grab game (particularly considering the power of the suck as a command grab), but I think that each grab should probably be at least situationally useful, and allow Kirby to cover some situations where he would otherwise be screwed. Ie. when he's damaged a light, mobile character such as Mewtwo to 200% on a large map, and is simply unable to land any of his hard-read-requisite kill moves.

One proposed solution to kill a fistful of birds with one stone:

Spoiler

- Increase the kill-power of the upthrow. I don't remember the exact percentage offhand, but it currently kills Mewtwo at something like 180% on Battlefield, contingent on Kirby landing on the top platform. I think it would be quite reasonable to reduce this significantly to 130-140% or so: slightly weaker than Mewtwo's upthrow as a kill move even if you hit a platform, but still a legitimate desperation option that doesn't mean you've already lost the game. This solution also rewards players for stage awareness, and getting the grab under specific circumstances.
- Similarly to your solution for Sheik: set up some sort of DI trap situation with his other throws. I think it might be interesting, for example, if Kirby's fthrow sent opponents parabolically *backwards* past Kirby after they hit the floor. This would encourage opponents to combo DI backwards, and survival DI straight up if near the ledge. This might also let Kirby set up some more interesting tech chases: and conflicts with the appropriate DI for his downthrow.
-> Note that this change in and of itself might be too strong. If something like this were done, I'd investigate increasing Kirby's lag frames after the throw, and possibly increasing the base knockback on dthrow slightly to encourage the use of the DI trap instead of mindlessly dthrowing.

• The nair is really, really good.

Spoiler

As of now, it's just fine; but I worry that it obsoletes Kirby's other aerial options (especially uair and fair, but even bair sometimes) just a little too often. If some of the other buffs were considered, I'd take a hard look at the nair and how it fits in with Kirby's aerial game. It may need some tweaking; but again, only if Kirby's other options are buffed imo.
Anyway, in summary, I think the biggest problem with Kirby atm is his complete lack of kill potential. In fact, his entire game seems to fall off once the opponent hits 130%: because combos don't work anymore. The hammer is a great option; but is still very slow, and as Kirby's only viable kill option at the moment; it's *incredibly* easy for a decently intelligent opponent to smell a Hammer coming a mile away.
So, uh, holy hell I wrote way more than I thought. Whatever, man

EDIT: I think it might also be cool to

Spoiler

allow Kirby to cancel his upwards up-b into a jump, similarly to Bowser's down-b and how Kirby's same up-b, when performed sideways, already allows you to act out of it. Letting Kirby combo vertically a little better and/or hit an up-air while higher in the level would also help mitigate his kill-potential problems. I have exactly no idea what technical or balance challenges this may present, and so present it only as offhand food for thought.

It's worth noting that all of these problems are much worse against characters that outrange Kirby. Sword characters, Mewtwo, D3, Bowser, maybe Charizard (dat jab) all seem like pretty brutal matchups for Kirby. That being said, his combo game against the bigger characters might be enough to mitigate that quite a bit in their case.

All of this, it should be noted, is pretty minor stuff. I could also very well be wrong about any or all of it. Input on my input is, of course, more than welcome.

EDIT: APPARENTLY I'VE KILLED THE KIRBY FORUMS SORRY GUYS

 

[Frost | Odds]

At the expense of probably getting crucified for double posting, I'd like to rebut a couple of my own points, now that I've had a bit more experience.

- The upsmash is better than I thought - the sweetspot appears to extend upwards in front of kirby quite a bit. There's still a ton of overlap with the fsmash, but it does seem situationally useful - particularly when facing an opponent in KO percentage, but from the wrong side of the stage.

- I think Kirby might already beat Bowser and Charizard pretty handily. Not sure about Ike or D3, but Marth and Roy are pretty hard. That said, they appear winnable - and considering that those are probably Kirby's worst matchups, there's not really that much to complain about.

- The Dsmash's design still feels strange to me, but I do find myself occasionally using it, so who knows.

- up-B cancel would be WAY op for edgeguarding. It was a silly suggestion anyway.

- u-throw seems situationally useful against fastfallers who are DI-ing towards you for some reason. Using it still seems super unnecessarily risky to me, though.

- ALL of kirby's aerials are crazy good. The nair, though, feels borderline broken. Not in and of itself, really - but its low cooldown and HUGE hitbox combined with Kirby's mobility makes it seem kinda silly. I'm not gonna complain unless/until I start seeing a ton of sellout Kirbies, in any event.

For God's sake, this has 150 views. Someone has to have an opinion on Kirby's throws and nair if nothing else. :<

i'm so lonely

 

[Ginge]

I have no gripes about Kirby at this time. He plays brilliantly. Literally the only changes I'd like to see are fixes to his copy abilities (which has its own discussion thread) and perhaps the lag from swallowing a Waddle Dee/Doo or bombs (which you get the delay AND damage for. I know it's how it was in Brawl, but it might need some minor work.

Please continue to make a great game, PMBR

 

[FreeGamer]

I'm going to give my opinions on all the moves. :D

-Jab: Does its job, still trolls people who don't know how to sweetspot

-F-Tilt: Easily the best of his ground moves, quick and strong with great coverage
-D-Tilt: The 10% damage and Kirby's small hurtbox during the move are nice, but its KB angle doesn't make it useful for anything other than pokes and situational edgeguarding
-U-Tilt: One of his best moves in every Smash, and it's good to see they knew better than to mess with it here

-F-Smash: Really strong, but too slow to use aside from hard reads... I'd want to trade some of that power for less startup if I were designing this character
-D-Smash: Also seems too slow to have much use, and I remember it having a lot more disjoint in Melee and Brawl
-U-Smash: Slow, but its speed is actually justified by that amazing sweetspot it has. No complaints here

-Dash Attack: Once the worst in the game, now it's one of the best. Bravo, PMBR
-Getup Attack: Does it job
-Ledge Attacks: Nothing wrong here

-Grab: Good range, decent pummel. What more could I ask for?
-D-Throw: Tech chase from Melee, complete with its meager 8% damage... I'm guessing Brawl's D-Throw would be toxic?
-F-Throw: Oh boy, a useless throw that doesn't set up anything unless the other person has bad DI
-B-Throw: See above
-U-Throw: All it does is set up combos against bad DI, and maybe kill people around 200%... would it really be too toxic if it were buffed to kill reliably around 140-150%? :/

-N-Air: Such speed, much range, very priority, wow. It pretty much eclipses his other aerials because of how effective it is in almost every situation
-F-Air: I like that this move can actually kill people offstage ^_^
-B-Air: Still as spammable as ever, but its laughable kill power means I have to land it offstage if I want it to kill anything... fair enough given how safe it is
-U-Air: Why is this the kill move from Melee? He already has Hammer and F/B-Air if he wants to kill things in the air, so wouldn't it be more useful if it juggled similar to the way it did in Brawl? Does he need it as a finisher?
-D-Air: I can see they made it a compromise between 64 and Melee, where it comes out fast and does a lot of numerical damage, but its actual KB is pitiful for trying to combo/gimp anyone. What I don't get is why it doesn't have a landing hitbox. Would it be toxic if he could follow up an L-Canceled landing hit like G&W can?

-Inhale: Was it really necessary to sacrifice so much range in exchange for air mobility and faster startup? I liked it better when it could get people above and below him... and less lag when swallowing things would be nice. Also, why does copying only do 3%? >_>
-Hammer: This move is amazing, and I'll go the extra mile to say it's easily his best kill move right now
-Final Cutter: I really like it, despite the crippling risk of losing all your jumps if you get hit out of it ^_^
-Stone: I'd like to see it explored for a while before I pass judgment on it... not sure what I think of it at this point

-Cook Kirby: where is mah crash ability >:O

 

[meow]

Hello, I've been playing a loy of Kirby too. I agree with the uselessness of all other throws besides up throw and down throw. However not every character needs an amazingly useful throw. B-Throw and F-Throw at least have some use for instance throwing into someone/something for teams and/or off the stage.

D-Smash, I don't know when to use it since it's range is so short. Any tips here?

U-Air is a bit strange, I don't understand why it's a kill move and when he has better options. I really thought it would be a juggle when I picked it up.

I don't understand stone at all besides using it as a safe/quick way to get down,. I've been trying to use grounded stone but it's range is too small so I don't know. Any tips again guys?

I don't remember any lag problems with inhale but 2 things bother me. Lucas and Mewtwo. Why their side-b? Also some abilities are still Brawl...

 

[Ginge]

I don't remember any lag problems with inhale but 2 things bother me. Lucas and Mewtwo. Why their side-b? Also some abilities are still Brawl...

The lag problems we're talking about is when you inhale Dedede's side-B minions (Waddle Dee, Waddle Doo). Kirby gets very large and can't act for a second or so. So not only does it make him a bigger target, he's incapable of acting during this time. It's like saying "Look at me, I'm a target!". And if you inhale, say, Link's bombs, you have the same thing happen. Only you also take damage from the bomb blowing up inside you. He inhales other items, too. The only thing they turned off is Kirby's inhaling of Sandbag on the Training Room stage. If you play with items on and a DIFFERENT Sandbag shows up, he can inhale that one. But the default one on the stage is immune.

We got Lucas's side-B because his neutral-B is the charge up ability. It doesn't work as well on Kirby. Plus having a projectile is kinda more important to Kirby in the long run. And the reason we got Mewtwo's disable I believe had something to do with whether the PMBR was able to add an article (they can't right now) to an attack. Meaning the projectile would be too hard to have added in. Disable is pretty useful in Turbo Mode, but I haven't found a use for it in regular matches. Lucas's side-B choice is probably based on Olimar getting that treatment instead in vBrawl and Project M. What good would plucking Pikmin be if you had no way to use them? So instead he has a pluck & throw. That only works on the ground.

 

[Phan7om]

Here's My Synopsis:
~Of the things mentioned above~
1. Cancelling Kirby's FC with a jump seems that it would either be useless or broken. Lets say if you were recovering from low, Kirby could cancel his FC into the rest of his 5 midair jumps... seems a little broken. Then you could also say that it could leave your with 2 midair jumps like the CD (cutter dash) does, but the last 2 of Kirby's midair jumps are pretty useless.
Solution: The only solution to this would be for the PMBR to program it so that it only cancels when you are on stage, which will still enable him to use the rest of his midair jumps when canceled.

2. Kirby's up-air seemed fine as is. It CAN still properly juggle at low %s, which was the same as it was in Brawl... but the % range is a lot smaller than it was in Brawl. In Brawl you could juggle until like 100% only if it was staled, while in PM Kirby could juggle to about 30%. Plus reverting it to Brawl I feel would make it a pretty useless move because it cant kill, and is still possible for a person to escape the juggle with good DI. Plus Kirby's up air spikes when hit from the back which can really mind-game your opponent into causing them to DI wrong. At kill % they wont know whether to DI up predicting a B-air, DI sideways predicting the Up-Air, or DI up predicting the Up-Air spike.
Solution: I could see it where the knockback growth of this move was changed, being the Brawl juggle move at low %s and the Melee kill move at higher %s.

3. Kirby's F-throw can be DIed basically 5 ways, away, down, back, up, or none. When using the move, react to the player's DI for a followup. You should never use this on Fast-fallers. Most usually the opponent will DI away/down, you CAN follow this up with a CD and then make a read/react to DI after that move to follow it up even more... this only really works at low-mid %s. If they DI up, you can follow this up with a rising F-air or rising Up-air which can kill floaties around 95% (on FD, obviously changes with the stage) or even lower if they DI the Up-Air wrong. If they dont DI or DI back you can hit them with a FFL Up-Air and regrab/tech chase them (depending on their falling speed).

4. Kirby's B-throw is ACTUALLY a pretty useful move, and should be used just as much or more than D-throw. This should always be used, along side D-throw on Fast-fallers. I've learned from watching M2K that 9/10 times, you should throw your opponent off of the edge to setup for an edgeguard. This can best be setup in 2 ways. (There are more, almost infinite, ways)
a. The first way would be to resort to the ledge the moment your opponent starts to approach you (rather it is the beginning of the match or when they are coming back from death), bait a reaction, waveland onto the stage Grab > B-throw. Unless they are Puff/MK/Kirby/DDD/Pit, this should always be the desired throw when close to the ledge.
b. The second way would be to bait their sheild and then B-throw them. Condition them to sheild/sg your attack, get them into that same situation, and grab them.
*Yes, even if you can CG them or combo them with something else, when by the ledge, always get them off of it. Kirby is a gimping machine, and with his B-throw sending them at a lower angle, it was meant for this... not for comboing. Just think, it is always better to kill your opponent at low % (such as < 30%) rather than to combo them to ~100% and get them with a kill move. When offstage your opponent's options are limited. They can jump (which you can intercept with an aerial/inhale/special), they can up-b (which you can read and intercept), they can side-b(which you can read and intercept), they can aerial (which you can read, avoid, and punish), and much more... basically unless they are extremely good, they will continue trying to do stuff to force their way onto the stage which usually involves a move.

I should probably make a thread on this, but idk if anyone would listen to me because my credentials are low.

 

[Frost | Odds]

You seem to have a pretty good idea what you're talking about, Gohan.

 

[Beethro]

i agree that the throws are pretty lack luster and some changes would be nice but im too much of a noob to know how tweaks would fit the meta and whatnot. i am a bit disappointed that theres no f/b throw kirbycide anymore though. also up throw feels like it should have some kill power after playing charizard so much. but whatever happens in that department happens i suppose.

my only real "gripe" with kirby right now is that they didnt give him his down-a slide tackle from the actual games, haha. it would make my day if they found some way to incorporate that into his moveset. other than that though, im really loving playing new kirby. hes in my top 3 right now after never even giving him a second thought before hand

 

[Frost | Odds]

So under what circumstances would you ftilt instead of dtilting?

 

[meow]

i agree that the throws are pretty lack luster and some changes would be nice but im too much of a noob to know how tweaks would fit the meta and whatnot. i am a bit disappointed that theres no f/b throw kirbycide anymore though. also up throw feels like it should have some kill power after playing charizard so much. but whatever happens in that department happens i suppose.

my only real "gripe" with kirby right now is that they didnt give him his down-a slide tackle from the actual games, haha. it would make my day if they found some way to incorporate that into his moveset. other than that though, im really loving playing new kirby. hes in my top 3 right now after never even giving him a second thought before hand

they did that in brawl -

 

[666blaziken]

Well there was one funny moment where my kirby maining friend was against a peach user. The peach person pulled out a stichface and I suddenly yelled out, "eat it!" just as the death turnip was thrown, my friend pressed b. The result was hilarious.

 

[skellitorman]

So under what circumstances would you ftilt instead of dtilting?

Ftilt not only does 1 more damage, but can be used as a fast move to get a KO at the higher percents. Since it has way more knockback power than dtilt it can also be used to just hit them off stage to where you can chase them and edgeguard. It may also have slightly more horizontal range, but it can also hit higher due to dtilt only having a hitbox near the ground. You can also angle ftilt to hit even higher, which can be very useful to have such an attack that can hit aerial opponents.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Makes sense. I'll have to do some testing of ftilt vs fsmash. The latter seems to have next to no priority for some reason, and tends to get me killed a lot. If ftilt has remotely comparable power with more range, it might be a suitable option at high %'s.

Additional gripe: wow, Kirby's crowd chant is profoundly unpleasant. I mean, it doesn't even really register as a concern for me in comparison to balance, but it is seriously grating

 

[chaosscizzors]

there's a couple of thing about kirby i found odd.
his utilt isn't the anti-air i was expecting and it usually trades with everything. i was hoping for for something closer to 64 with a much smaller hitbox or maybe even closer to brawl. in that same vien i was hoping for brawl's uair since it was a nice approach/comboed into utilt. the forward version of uB gives kirby a really strong recovery which he doesn't really need. dB is a bit of an odd move now. it's supposed to be used as some sort of counter but i find his nair to be much better at breaking combos and it's just an extremely powerful move overall. i could settle for kirby as-is if they just gave utilt a wider hitbox or even just made his leg disjointed.

 

[skellitorman]

there's a couple of thing about kirby i found odd.
his utilt isn't the anti-air i was expecting and it usually trades with everything. i was hoping for for something closer to 64 with a much smaller hitbox or maybe even closer to brawl. in that same vien i was hoping for brawl's uair since it was a nice approach/comboed into utilt. the forward version of uB gives kirby a really strong recovery which he doesn't really need. dB is a bit of an odd move now. it's supposed to be used as some sort of counter but i find his nair to be much better at breaking combos and it's just an extremely powerful move overall. i could settle for kirby as-is if they just gave utilt a wider hitbox or even just made his leg disjointed.

Indeed his options hitting directly above are weak hitbox wise, but uptilt at least still functions well in combos. The only main situation I see this being a particular problem is when you use inhale and copy since the opponent is directly above Kirby and recovers before him which is stupid. Obviously it's a problem in AA situations as well, but at least you can move and use his other attacks.

The forward version of uB was a very good idea since it helps alleviate one of his severe weaknesses (being his lack of mobility). When a character with no projectile and little range is slow in both the air and on the ground, it becomes difficult to mount an offense against characters who have superior mobility and range, which many characters do. Chasing an opponent down horizontally to continue a combo or to continue his offense was also a problem for Kirby because of this. With Cutter dash and the new dash attack, he can now continue his offense once he gets you.

Furthermore Kirby's recovery isn't nearly as strong as many others especially as it was before. Yes having multiple jumps is very good for recovery but trying to counter certain characters who jumps off the stage to edgeguard can be difficult since Kirby doesn't have the range nor priority in his attacks to stop such an attempt nor does he have that superior air speed like Jigglypuff to outmaneuver them. Furthermore Final Cutter as it was, was easy to counter, due to its slow, obvious startup, its small range, and its single trajectory.

At least now, Kirby can change it up with a forward dash that also has weak priority. Furthermore he could use the dash to gain more horizontal distance so he could recover from above rather than from below.

 

[chaosscizzors]

my main gripe was that he's fundamentally different from the kirby i've known all these years. i wanted WD utilt and SHFFL uair approaches. i had no problem working with kirby's old recovery and i thought it was fairly decent as is. personally i feel like a lot of recoveries are unnecessarily powerful even if no where near OP. i feel like dash attack is all he needs for an approach and if he had the utilt and uair i was hoping for then he could zone out of fireball and keep the gap small similar to marth. like i said i just wished i got my anti-air utilt. 64/brawl is all the kirby i played and so my kirby was more walling and defense with utilt being the main tool in that strat. i just really, really, really want to RAR WD utilt people but it always trades. =(

tbh i have a bunch of gripes about various things within this game's development path but i still love it. that's just how i feel. as it's been said before, PM is its own beast unlike any other smash title so far.

 

[Shell]

U-tilt has some invulnerability on his outer foot and has pretty large hitboxes, not to mention the low startup. I'm rather surprised that it's not working as an anti-air.

Perhaps a silly question, but you are trying to use it to hit foes behind and slightly above Kirby, right? Like most moves, the priority is better earlier in the attack and then diminishes for the later hit directly above / in front of Kirby.

 

[chaosscizzors]

yeah like i said, i'm trying to RAR WD approach with it or stuff SH approaches with it. for example, i'll try to utilt through mario's nair while i'm facing away from him but it seems like his nair keeps hitting my leg during utilt resulting in a trade. i'm a marth player so i'm trying to get them with the tip of utilt so that might be my problem, but then wouldn't i have to get even closer to hit someone with the first few frames of utilt while they're at the peak of a SH? seems like i'd be getting hit in that scenario too since my body's hurtbox might be in range of nair's hitbox at that point. i don't suppose there's some hitbox gifs around here is there? that would make this whole thing a lot simpler for me.

 

[FreeGamer]

Can someone compile Kirby's hitboxes/frame data? I'd like to know whether or not I'm lying when I say his smashes feel slow. :/

 

[skellitorman]

If I had to take a guess. I'd say down smash is the fastest and starts at around 7 frames. Up smash is the second fastest and starts at around 9 frames. Forward smash is the slowest and starts at around 13 frames. I don't feel that his smashes are slow relative to the cast. For the power and range that they have, the startup fits quite well.

However. I do feel that the sweetspot hitboxes for up and downsmash should be changed or removed altogether however. I don't see why upsmash needs to be done so close to the opponent when characters like Fox and Pikachu have way better Up smashes compared to Kirby in terms of speed, and power while not having that hitbox problem. I think it would be way more fair for a character like Fox and Pikachu to have such a small sweetspot instead of Kirby having it.

 

[Shell]

Correction - I misspoke about the invuln, no invuln on U-tilt, sorry.

 

[chaosscizzors]

ah ok. that makes more sense then lol.

 

[Rᴏb]

What do you guys think of Kirby's dair? Tbh I'm kinda disappointed in how lackluster it is. It really sucks at gimping and is really hard to combo out of. The only thing that works after using dair onstage is fishing for a grab so you can d/bthrow. I guess you can dsmash to get your opponent offstage at an early percent, but I think Kirby needs a better gimping move to follow this up for it to be effective. If I could change it I would change it in either of these ways:

1. Add a landing hitbox. The move would become much more useful because it would be able to set you up or combos after doing a good amount of damage. It would be similar to G&W's dair, but probably better.

2. Lower the damage dair does and increase the knockback. This change would be reminiscent of Kirby's 64 dair because it would be a great gimping tool. I would prefer this change, but I don't know if it would be as good as the other one.

 

[Rizner]

Dair is good for gimping some of the cast - if only starting frames hit its meteor.
Throws are now mostly for stage control instead of combos, so I'd agree with gohan's post.
For killing, dthrow to usmash works wonders.
Also, his uair can now kill like in melee, so that's an option