Uniter Of The Worlds: Lloyd Irving for SSB4

[kikaru]

Oh dear... not Dawn of the New World... I will attempt to contain myself to the following:

Customization.
Kratos.
Emil.
Marta.

SIGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

While it was an alright game it could have done a million things better in my opinion.

 

[Popsydoodles]

Like being as awesome as the first TOS

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I have to yet get back to DOTNW.Some things could have been done better, so things can be off-putting as I can see to people and at times I dunno if I feel engaged to clear it on like I did with TOS. I refrain from final thoughts yet since I'm still going through the game.

I though really, REALLY wished they would have thrown the whole Pokemon-knockoffing mechanics to a bunker and just made the game better with more traditional things. Emil feels like belonging to a Pokemon-game at times more than a Tales Of-game everytime I have to do something with the monsters.

Also addin' you Popsy.

 

[Omega-Smasher]

Though I haven't played Tales f Symphonia, I am in full support of getting Lloyd into the game, even if his biggest contender is the world-famous PacMan.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

And the monster system had certain complexities that just weren't very well-made... I constantly was wondering why I would want to evolve my creatures. They should've just had a system where monsters reach the top of their current form and then you can evolve it into another creature with identical stats but more exciting abilities.

I forgot about the "stand there and look pretty" AI. That's why, Scoliosis, you should play the games with friends if possible.

How does the co-op play even work? Would my friends just control my party members? That's pretty cool.

 

[LaniusShrike]

How does the co-op play even work? Would my friends just control my party members? That's pretty cool.

Yep, you can have up to four players if you've got the controllers (in Tos1. In ToS2 you can only consistantly have two players I believe).
Problem is, the camera doesn't actually keep in mind players who are in the back lines, so you'd probably only want to have other people play melee characters (or really repetitive spellcasters)

 

[Popsydoodles]

did anyone ever come up with how he would use items?

 

[FlareHabanero]

did anyone ever come up with how he would use items?

He can pick them up using his hands.

 

[Popsydoodles]

He can pick them up using his hands.

Hahahahahaha...hahaaha...haha...ha...ugh... you're the embodiment of sarcasm.

@Horsetail

Some of the music is linked to the wrong page. Just a heads up.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Hahahahahaha...hahaaha...haha...ha...ugh... you're the embodiment of sarcasm.

Well. He's right.

Why would he pick up items any other way?

 

[Frostwraith]

He's probably referring to the fact that Lloyd wields two swords. That could be worked around easily, though...

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yeah. Link and Toon Link put their shields on their backs when they picks up an item. Lloyd can do the same.

 

[Frostwraith]

Yeah. Link and Toon Link putt their shields on their backs when they picks up an item. Lloyd can do the same.

Pretty much.

Whenever Lloyd uses a move that has him use both swords, the item would disappear for a while, as it happens with some characters when they use certian moves while holding items.

 

[Popsydoodles]

Yeah. Link and Toon Link put their shields on their backs when they picks up an item. Lloyd can do the same.

its funny because i never actually noticed that.

 

[Oasis_S]

Surprisingly, I actually have access to Tales of Symphonia, little did I know, BUT AM I GOING TO PLAY ITno.

 

[LaniusShrike]

Surprisingly, I actually have access to Tales of Symphonia, little did I know, BUT AM I GOING TO PLAY ITno.

Ah man, why not? It seriously is a good game. It's like playing Super Smash Bros: RPG.

 

[Popsydoodles]

Surprisingly, I actually have access to Tales of Symphonia, little did I know, BUT AM I GOING TO PLAY ITno.

meh. your loss

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Oasis: Hahahah, that's how I used to be too, until I played it...

Your decision though, and I don't think it's wholly a loss, really. Maybe might not really turn out to be your thing in the end if you went truly play it through? Who knows. (-ö3ö-)

 

[Deleted member]

Not a supporter, but I am warming up to the idea of a Tales rep getting in and I'm also now seeing a Tales rep as a possibility instead of blindly dismissing it like I once did.

While I still doubt we'll get one, I'm leaning towards us getting a Tales rep if we get a Namco rep for a few reasons.

One is that a Tales rep is probably the most wanted Namco character. ChronoBound has mentioned very strong demands for a Tales rep in Japan, although they can't agreed on who should be in. Lloyd Irving also seems to enjoy mild popularity within the Smash Bros. community at the very least in the West and has the benefit of having the general consensus there. Compare that to Pac-Man in that a lot of his "demand" is based off the expectations of him getting in and not because people actually want the character. I think Sakurai wants to stay away from "expected but not wanted" third-party character which describes Pac-Man pretty well, but a Tales rep have avoided this.

Another thing is Namco interest. While they seem to be leaving the fate of a Tales rep up to Sakurai, Namco has still expressed interest in a Tales rep whereas we have seen no such interest in Pac-Man. Normally a lack of interest publicly expressed in a character wouldn't hurt too much since Sega never publicly expressed interest in Sonic and Konami never publicly expressed interest in Snake, but the thing is that not only has Namco not expressed interest in Pac-Man but that Namco has expressed interest in a Tales rep getting in (and even entertained the idea of a Tekken rep by stating that if there's enough demand that they would push for one, not that I think it would happen). There's the off-chance that Namco is hiding Pac-Man's appearance, but considering that they have expressed interest in a Tales rep, I'd say that a Tales rep is more of what Namco has in mind for their third-party character.

And while this is a stretch, there's also the fact that the Tales's battle mechanic is similar to that of Smash. Third-parties are known for being incredibly difficult to fit in and a Namco rep won't be an exception, but Tales's battle mechanic can help with smoothing the translation of a Tales character getting into Smash. I have a feeling that the reason why Namco expressed interest is because of Tales's game play mechanic and there's the off-chance that Sakurai would agree.

Again, I don't consider a Tales rep likely, but those are some good food for thoughts here. If we do end up getting one in, it'll be either Lloyd Irving due to the West having a general consensus on him or Cress Albane, who is seen as the face of the franchise (at least in Japan) and appears in the Tales logo.

 

[FalKoopa]

My interest in Lloyd has waned over time... (Lloyd is the only Namco rep that interests me now, although less than before.)

I'll still be happy to see him though.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Seems like time can change hearts (a bit)?

I mean, I don't expect Lloyd fully either, you can say I'm more of grasping that only rope that is Tales Of-series getting interest when spoken about Smash Bros so far... But really, I just feel like he'd be more than home in Smash. (-;^;- )

Also about Cress, I wouldn't mind him in Smash too. Maybe because it'd appeal to the more original title that was on SFC back in old days (once to be even published by Nintendo, but they turned that offer down because they had to concentrate on N64, according to Wikipedia's article for ToP.) Arche Klein as an Assist Trophy and you bet I'd go head over heels giddy.

From what I've seen BTW, Yuri Lowell seems now more of an icon to the series (or he's just so popular he's now a poster boy of the series, he had to be actually be taken down from popularity polls due always scoring as 1st according to some rumors.)

One more thing, I think Lloyd Irving (or other Tales Of-rep) would really benefit, and even if, be capable of showcasing well what Sakurai planned SSB4 to be (in means of customizing): since Tales Of-games lets you customize your special moves to B-button (or similar) and so on, I think it wouldn't be too far off it characters we're given some more special moves than before (even if it might lead to some broken gameplay?). At least some perk over Pac-Man in that department as it can actually contribute to SSB4's presumed direction to gameplay.

 

[LaniusShrike]

The Tales series is perfect for Smash inclusion and it really is super popular in Japan. And, Tales of Symphonia has had two games come out for Nintendo consoles, one of which being exclusive to the Wii so it's the obvious choice for Smash. Finally, Lloyd is the main character, so...

In short, if a Tales character gets in, I'm super confident that it'll be Lloyd. Even if he's not my first choice for a Tales character.

As far as Namco representation goes... I'd rather see Dig Dug.


Edit: Who here has played Tales of Vesperia? Yuri Lowell is super popular because he is undeniably a better character. Out of all the JRPGs I've played, Yuri may be my favorite main character.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I haven't, but I can see why everyone likes Yuri (and would prefer him over Lloyd.)
Sadly Vesperia hasn't been in any Nintendo-console, even if Yuri was in Project X Zone. (But being in a crossover on a Nintendo-console doesn't really lend much to be in another crossover, right?)

Anyway, working now on an argument page.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Argument page's done!

- Arguments and Counterarguments -

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• "Lloyd is a nobody compared to Pac-Man." (GameFAQs)

Belittling Lloyd's (or other Bamco-reps) chances and recognizability because he isn't in par of of Pac-Man's is slightly unappreciative for these characters, as they're known for their own games and things they have done. None of the characters mentioned above will ever be as famous as Pac-Man, anyway.

Going on, Lloyd and his series have their own career, big fanbases and their own category of recognizability. But if Lloyd was truly a nobody, there wouldn't be much of support for him in SSB4.
In fact, I wouldn't have ever seen it being brought for Brawl (Where he was actually marginally higher supported character compared to Pac-Man.)

Which brings me to this: the ones who support other well-known VG characters other than mascots see something in them that make even the most famous mascots less interesting choice than the character they're supporting. But it's up to the supporter though to explain and tell how they would work in the environment of the game, and if they have chances as well, especially if there's mascot or more well-known characters in the way.

Anyway, there won't ever be two mascots, which is why it's pointless to compare characters to a mascot when they won't ever be as well-known as them. It also doesn't mean that everyone from the said company can't represent themselves in a game along with the mascots, when you can consider that even the most unexpected can happen, that is, the mascot character not even appearing in the game at all, considering how Sakurai had added 3rd Parties in the past (Snake due personal request from Kojima and Sonic due world-wide popularity and demand leading to last-minute addition.)

Pac-Man being not mentioned by Bamco so far (mentioning Tales Of instead in terms of Bamco-reps) might affect this, so unless Pac-Man is shown in upcoming E3's SSB4 unveil, one can't say he's entirely a shoe-in.

• Isn't Tales Of-series is a niche series?

Tales Of-series is regarded as the "3rd" of the most popular and biggest JRPGS behind Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy, both in Japan and international countries.
In Japan, it is massive in popularity and media, including a slew of spin-off console-based games, radioplays, four animation series, a theatherical movie, drama CDs, merchandise, magazines and fan conventions throughout the world, where the producers tend to come for visit as well.

Tales Of-series main con though is it's somewhat low profile and lack of active marketing push to make it more popular outside of Japan, as most of the media related to the series outside of main games aren't usually released outerstates. It can be compared a lot to Fire Emblem's situation Pre-Melee.
Tales Of though is seeing a big surge in popularity and recognition through the latest critically acclaimed Tales Of-title, Tales Of Xillia, which is coming overseas this year.

If Tales Of-series would make it in Smash, it would truly increase the recognition of the series for more broader audience, maybe even prompting more games to Nintendo-systems since Japan-only Tales Of Graces.

• Lloyd is a bland and uninspired character.

This is brought a couple of times, but it's more of a subjective argument than anything. Lloyd has also some amount of personality that he can show as a fighter, such as being somewhat unbright but idealistic hero in his taunts and victories.

(Though I have to also admit that he's pretty uninspired.)

• There's many other protagonists that could also be added to the game. (Also Tales Of-fans debating and not being able to decide which protagonist to want )​
  ​

Let's bring in other prptagonists from other titles chronologically on Nintendo-consoles:

Cless (Tales Of Phantasia, SNES, GBA)
Lloyd (Tales Of Symphonia, GCN)
Luke (Tales Of Abyss, 3DS)
Ruca (Tales Of Innocence, DS)
Caius (Tales Of Tempest, DS)
Asbel (Tales Of Graces, Wii)

Looking at it from the standpoint of which games were most influenced by Nintendo, Cless and Lloyd would be the fortrunners, with Luke probably following as the 3rd.

Lloyd hails from the most popular and well-known game in the series at West. According to producer Hideo Baba, Symphonia actually got supported by Nintendo during it's development (presumably under some advertising like a Symphonia-based Gamecube bundle in Japan only and maybe the movement of it to outerseas as it was showcased in E3 2004.
Symphonia also got a sequel for Wii exclusively, as well as Lloyd being featured in Soul Calibur Legends, also for Wii only.
(Psst, the Gamecube bundle's based on Gamecube-looking device which appeared ingame in Yuan's base. )

Cless is from the most first game of the series, also on Nintendo-console originally, and has been a cult classic as well on SNES, though less so than Symphonia. Cless is also seen somewhat as the mascot of the series as his silhouette is on the Tales Of-logo. Something to also consider is that Phantasia is set on same world as Symphonia, although in much different timeline, which might make "Aselia"-based titles (Symphonia and Phantasia's homeworld) most sensible to be represented about Tales Of when it comes to Nintendo-based history for Smash Bros.

Luke comes from Tales Of Abyss, originally a PS2-exclusive only released on Japan and US, but was ported to 3DS in 2011, and was released to Europe along with it as well. The game is also fairly popular, though Luke being rather backwards compared to Lloyd and Cless (coming from Sony-platform) might hinder his chances. Snake was an exception to this though, but it's true that Luke's support is rather silent when compared to Aselian protagonists.

Ruca and Asbel were from JPN-only titles, though Asbel's game was remade for Playstation under Tales Of Graces F, which was localized outside of Japan. His game being Japan-only on Wii though and being less know that three protagonists above leads him having less support. Same can be said about Ruca and Caius.

Looking from these, Cless would be the only good fortrunner for spot with Lloyd, but since Lloyd's more well-known outside of Japan and from most popular game in general, he might be more considered for Tales Of-representation.

Now consider this. If Lloyd (or Cless) gets in, it might do more well to the series he hails from, so if there's an actual chance to have a representative from those series. So if you're a Tales Of-fan, there's a chance we'll see more representation from the series, including the characters.

(I would really approve Cless though.)

• Why would Sakurai consider Lloyd anyway?

Tales Of-series uses "Linear Motion Battle System" to execute it's battle scenarios in the series. Instead of being turn-based like most JRPGS, this is a real-time battle engine similar to Smash Bros.
Characters move in 2D plane and attack with regular attacks and special attacks (Artes), also mapped similarly to Smash Bros. In fact, once a fighting game spinoff was made based on this engine, titled Tales of VS. (Japan-only)

With this, one could say that Lloyd (or in fact, almost any Tales Of-character) would feel just home in Smash and would be easily translated to it's fighting engine. If Sakurai would be to look for an easy 3rd party to implement, Lloyd would be pretty much the fortrunner.
This doesn't quarantee Lloyd's inclusion very much, however.

But what again would actually contribute to his inclusion over other Bamco-reps, is the fact that Sakurai wanted to make SSB4 more "customizable" experience. This is where LMBS's functionality of special moves being customizable and to a lesser extent, Grade-system, comes in.

In Tales Of-games, LMBS lets you customize your special moves to B-button (or similar). Some can be upgraded to better moves or spells, or even be worked to an all new move under certain circumstances.
If Sakurai was to make more new special moves for characters, Lloyd would be a great showcasing and working character around this trope as he has plenty of artes for this purpose.

The Grade-system, first introduced in Tales of Eternia, is a reward mechanic where "Grade" is awarded to the player based upon the player's performance in a battle. Doing well gains it, while doing poorly can subtract from the value. After completing the entire game, this accumulated Grade can be used in the "Grade Shop" to buy certain bonuses for the next playthrough. This can also be added to SSB4 in more streamlined form of being acguired in single-player modes to customize characters, buy upgrades or other features, and so on.

With this, Lloyd would have some more perk over other Bamco-reps in that his game series can actually contribute to SSB4's presumed direction to customizable, individual experiences and gameplay.

___________________________________________________________________________________

Feel free to throw more arguments, as I think the first one is a prime reason I can't find more arguments to tackle at. It's annoying and overly done, especially in GameFAQs.

EDIT: Toned the aggressive tone down as requested from some people here. Dunno if it's enough, but you can tell me.

 

[LaniusShrike]

Well-written. Also, it makes me smile that you even admit that he's not a super inspiring character.

 

[FalKoopa]

Erm, the tone of the Arguments is kinda aggressive. I think it should be toned down.

 

[LaniusShrike]

Eh, yeah- FallKoopa's right, it is a bit combative. I'd consider stating the arguments against as questions and then have your responses seem more like answering the question instead of arguing. I still think the points are well-considered, though.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Well-written. Also, it makes me smile that you even admit that he's not a super inspiring character.

I won't deny it. I think he felt least developed character in the game despite some things happening to him in the game that might have prompted him to do so, really. Mostly his friends saved his hide and he saved them before in return.

Why I want him though is mostly for Tales Of being seen in Smash, and how it'd work in the world Smash overall. Also more characters appearing too which would be a great plus.

Also thanks. (-lvl-)

EDIT: Refined OP and fixed things up mentioned before, while adding an Article-page with some of the articles regarding Tales Of with Smash Bros and Symphonia in West. Might add more if I can find.

EDIT 2: Really? I didn't really think it as that aggressive, more of just getting to point. But it wouldn't hurt to look over and tone down some things.

On the other hand I'm more of tackling the actual arguments which are brought when speaking about Lloyd, so I went more with counterargumenting them.

 

[kikaru]

Wow, the arguments look solid, good job Horsetail! And I never once considered upgrading attacks/utilizing grade as tributes to the series.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Wow, the arguments look solid, good job Horsetail! And I never once considered upgrading attacks/utilizing grade as tributes to the series.

Yeah, I think it is why Tales Of would IMO do more to the gameplay aspect of SSB4, something I don't think Sakurai would shaft out if getting to know more about.

Who knows, this might even be why producers of Tales Of are on the boat with Bamco and Sakurai to make SSB4 if based on this concept. A wild throw of a guess, I think.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Okay guys, sorry for the double post, but I dunno if I'm really feeling like doing this, so asking your opinions:

Should I try posting my argument page on GameFAQs? I've seen Lloyd's HIGHLY unpopular there and thus was pretty sure I'd get into all kinds of arguments and maybe insults about Pac-Man being million times better than Lloyd or none wanting to play as Lloyd (and people ****ting on ones who want to.)

Just wondering is it worth to even try changing their heads around?

 

[FalKoopa]

Eh, I think you might give it a shot.

 

[Frostwraith]

Okay guys, sorry for the double post, but I dunno if I'm really feeling like doing this, so asking your opinions:

Should I try posting my argument page on GameFAQs? I've seen Lloyd's HIGHLY unpopular there and thus was pretty sure I'd get into all kinds of arguments and maybe insults about Pac-Man being million times better than Lloyd or none wanting to play as Lloyd (and people ****ting on ones who want to.)

Just wondering is it worth to even try changing their heads around?

Yeah, I think you could give it a try... Just ignore the trolls and stupid people, like dedekong for example.

Even among the majority of stupid people, there are still some decent users.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Okay, done now. Let's see what the outcome will be.

 

[FalKoopa]

Okay, done now. Let's see what the outcome will be.

please?

 

[Frostwraith]

please?

Here's the . (Click on the Link icon. )

 

[FalKoopa]

Here's the . (Click on the Link icon. )

The comments are mostly positive. (except dedekong. )

 

[Frostwraith]

The comments are mostly positive. (except dedekong. )

You were expecting anything else from dedekong?

 

[FalKoopa]

You were expecting anything else from dedekong?

I'm not familiar with GameFAQs, so I don't know many of the notorious users there. (I came to know about dedekong only a few days ago.)

 

[Frostwraith]

I'm not familiar with GameFAQs, so I don't know many the notorious users there. (I came to know about dedekong only a few days ago.)

As a long-time lurker of the GFAQs boards, I know well who dedekong is. He's anti-third party characters, makes horribly biased comments, thinks Dark Pit should be in the game and is rather loud about it. (Think Diddy Kong with Impa, but worse.) Also, his threads always have a random word in CAPS for some reason.

That's all. Now... we should get back on topic.