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United States Imperialism

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Crimson King

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Being in staunch opposition to Big Government, and a proponent of Capitalism, I think the US has hit a new low:

http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2008/06/30/feds-seek-swiss-bank-records/


Getting pass the neo-con jargon, the IRS is pissed off because they realized that over $20 billion is invested in the Swiss Bank. The IRS requires citizens report and pay taxes for all values above $10,000 abroad. Here's why this is bull****: the money is in a bank in a country that the US cannot touch. People earned their money someway through hard work, and now the US wants to take that from them? On top of all of this, the US also threatens to bring in enforcement if the Swiss do not comply.

I am completely against paying our government to bail themselves out. They caused the current economic crisis, and now that the crisis is getting worse, they want to steal as much money from citizens as possible.

Any thoughts on this?
 

SkylerOcon

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Well if there's already a tax in place that requires you to pay if you have over $10,000 invested in a foreign bank, those citizens were breaking the law by not paying the tax.

The government though, should not be threatening the Swiss because of this. They should be punishing the people who did not pay that tax.
 

pockyD

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I think that the government's right to collect taxes should be kept separate with their failure to properly spend whatever they receive.

Are you saying that taxes are too high in general? Or simply that the government can't be trusted to properly allocate funds at this point?

Regardless, assuming that you recognize the government's right to tax (you might not, but if you don't have any taxes at all, you lose all sorts of stuff like police, fire department, etc), then you have to recognize that people that are evading taxes are breaking the law. I don't think two wrongs make a right here

Edit: I guess judging based on the title "Imperialism", the topic you wanted to discuss was if the USA is "threatening" Switzerland, and sure, if true, I believe that's wrong
 

Crimson King

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It's just another form of Civil disobedience. These people are investing their money in the Swiss Bank to make more money. The government once a piece of their pie without doing anything to earn that money. How is that right? The income tax pays the interest on the dollar and federal matters, you listed local matters which is a separate tax.
 

pockyD

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Well, the principle behind taxes being levied at all is the same

But once again, letting these people off the hook isn't the solution, either. The people who have Swiss bank accounts are likely to already be at least moderately well off, so in a sense, it would be equivalent to a tax break for the wealthy, while the poor still pay the same taxes.
 

SkylerOcon

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And there was already a law in place. They were going around the law, which is illegal. The government needs a way to make money and taxes are that way.
 

Crimson King

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Or cut massive spending and congressional raises. Instead of spending so much and then taxing to make up for, the government could easily cut spending, significantly, and work on getting out of their deficit for a while. In time, when the economy has recovered, completely cut taxes and let the market control the economy.

It doesn't bother anyone that we have higher taxes than kings imposed on serfs? Sure, the people didn't own the land, but the kinds had an invested interest in at least appeasing their peasants. Our leaders have only a 4 - 8 investment, then never have to worry about it again.
 

SkylerOcon

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The taxes help us get out of a deficit. I'm not saying that we should have ridiculous amounts of taxes, but putting money in foreign banks is an attempt to get out of government taxes.

I agree fully on that we need to cut our spending budgets. The only tax that I have any strong opposition to is the income tax.
 

Crimson King

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The income tax does not accomplish this. It just pays for the interest rates on our money. Even then, we do not have nearly enough to offset an constant deficit - ever. The deficit is nearing $10 trillion (http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/) and that will not be offset by taxes, a massive, costly war, and horrible social plans with no end in sight.
 

Amide

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The income tax does not accomplish this. It just pays for the interest rates on our money. Even then, we do not have nearly enough to offset an constant deficit - ever. The deficit is nearing $10 trillion (http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/) and that will not be offset by taxes, a massive, costly war, and horrible social plans with no end in sight.
Wait, so you think it's impossible to pay off the deficit? No matter changes in taxes and such?
 

SkylerOcon

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You need taxes to help a country make money. Don't get me wrong, I would love it if we didn't have any. But, countries need money. And taxes are a way to do that.

At this point, however, increasing taxes aren't going to help are massive debt. I agree with you on that. What we need to do is stop spending so much money.
 

Crimson King

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Definite impossible. At our current methods? Yes completely. Democrats are slightly smarter in this aspect in that they raise taxes and continue spending, but the smarter move would be to lower spending so that it is less than taxes.
 

manhunter098

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It doesn't bother anyone that we have higher taxes than kings imposed on serfs? Sure, the people didn't own the land, but the kinds had an invested interest in at least appeasing their peasants. Our leaders have only a 4 - 8 investment, then never have to worry about it again.
Well Im pretty sure serfs had lords, not kings, but that aside.

Serfs didnt get any benefits from their taxation other than a right to live on the land which they werent allowed to leave. So while we may pay more in taxes than they did, we are getting a lot more back from our taxation than they did.

And honestly, I dont like high taxes and I would much rather the government spend its money more wisely, but I also think that people should pay the taxes that they are required to by law or fight the law itself head on, rather than breaking a law that would cost them (since only the wealthy tend to stash money in foreign banks) very little of their quality of life if they were to follow it.

That said total reign of the free market fails. But government fails to do right to its economy often as well. That said you cant stop the cycle of depression and economic growth no matter how you run an economy, and its effects are the worst when there is nothing to help shorten and limit those effects, which is where the government ideally would come in, and do its best making wise decisions to limit the negative effects and duration of a recession.
 

marthanoob

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I'm pretty sure that the sub-prime crisis, outsourcing, issues with banks, and a number of other factors are contributing to the current "recession".
I doubt that the federal deficit is relevant to our current problem, although they probably would be able to pull us out given we weren't in an deficit.

As much as we would like to blame everything on the government, it's not always the government's fault.
 

Amide

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Definite impossible. At our current methods? Yes completely. Democrats are slightly smarter in this aspect in that they raise taxes and continue spending, but the smarter move would be to lower spending so that it is less than taxes.
Yeah, but then some people would scream "that spending was important, you can't get rid of those programs!" That's the problem, we're so used to the government babying us.
 

EC_Joey

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The US government needs to start making some hard decisions. They can't please everybody at once, but doing what's best for the country takes precedence over people complaining about this and that. Right now what's best for the country has taken a back seat to ridiculous things like the war in Iraq.

The government's too bloated, something big needs to happen for changes to be made for the betterment of the US.
 

Crimson King

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The problem is every branch of the government has gotten way beyond its natural intent. The Judicial Branch was never intended to be the end-all-be-all on constitutionality of laws. Congress was never ended to be a backseat to the president, and the president was never intended to be able to go to war at whim. When you have this imbalance of power, and Republicans who do not understand that conservative means not spending as much, you create a bad economic situation.

The War in Iraq proves how non-conservative the ruling party is. The war is a billion - trillion dollar a year deficit. A true conservative would have waited and thought the risk vs. gain of the war in Iraq, and re-evaluate it every year that we are there. Since the deficit is continuous with it and there is next to no progress overall, a true conservative would bow out gracefully after spending maybe a year tapering themselves out of the region. Now, the region is so reliant upon us, that the second we leave, it'll collapse.
 

derek.haines

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The US needs to, if only for a little while, become Switzerland. They need to just focus all of their energies within their own borders and just try to make some things right at home before we fight other's battles abroad. I'm all for helping the less fortunate peoples of the world, but I have trouble justifying it if it sacrifices the citizens that should be the first priority.
 

Amide

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The US needs to, if only for a little while, become Switzerland. They need to just focus all of their energies within their own borders and just try to make some things right at home before we fight other's battles abroad. I'm all for helping the less fortunate peoples of the world, but I have trouble justifying it if it sacrifices the citizens that should be the first priority.
This is exactly how I look at it. If we could help everyone in the world, that would be great. Unfortunately, as of now, we can't. There's so much problems at home, and so little money, that anything overseas makes little to no sense.
 

Crimson King

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Well, if we become Switzerland, the old US would have to find a way to threaten us. The fact is the US is much to large as it is to maintain with our life style. Either we revert to primitive society, or we break the US into smaller regions.
 

Aesir

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The thing Americans seem to have this idea if you don't own 2-3 town houses you're not living. Do we really need such exaggerated life styles? why can't we just admit to live comfortably? I feel Capitalism gets abused a lot in America, it's an easy system to abuse anyway but in American it's very easy to see the abuse.

if focused our money on making America a more secure nation and be more worried about the people inside the country rather then outside we'll become a more prosperous nation.
 

Crimson King

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It's their money they can do with it as they wish. Capitalism is about the freedom to make mistakes. If I want three luxury suites, there is no reason why I should not be able to own it. To say we should limit stuff like that is bordering on socialism.
 

pockyD

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There's not really "abuse" in capitalism, but it does naturally produce a big divide between the rich and the poor.
 

Aesir

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I would consider it an abuse in capitalism especially when 5% of the population owns more then half the worlds wealth.

Maybe I am bordering on socialism, it's not like the US doesn't take ideas from socialism anyway. Library's, schools, police service, firefighter's service. we all pay for that via taxes, but it's a social service it accessible to everyone who needs it.
 

Eor

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Perhaps I have a different definition of Imperialism, but doesn't imperialism imply foreign policy and conquering? This seems more like the Ron Paul definition, which means nothing more then paying for welfare and social programs, which has nothing to do with an empire.
 

Crimson King

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They threatened Switzerland with "Enforcement" if they don't comply. That's stiff arming to get what they want.
 

SkylerOcon

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It's ridiculous that the government is going to punish Switzerland for what their own citizens did. Why doesn't the government punish the people who violated the law?
 

blazedaces

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Guys, I agree with you, but take a quick look at the quote from the article again:

newsarticle said:
The U.S. government is trying to cooperate with the Swiss government and the bank, Deputy Assistant Attorney General John DiCicco said. But he added, “We are prepared to seek enforcement if that process is not successful.”
I realize the quote is being placed right after mention of the swiss government, but the general only said if "that process" is not succesful. For all we know he was just talking about people not cooperating with the taxing process.

I realize it seems otherwise, but I just think we should consider the idea that he's being misquoted is all...

-blazed
 

Crimson King

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Well, if the Swiss hand over the documents, they will have all the names they need to press charges. If they don't, the government has nothing.
 

Johnthegalactic

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The problem is every branch of the government has gotten way beyond its natural intent. The Judicial Branch was never intended to be the end-all-be-all on constitutionality of laws. Congress was never ended to be a backseat to the president, and the president was never intended to be able to go to war at whim. When you have this imbalance of power, and Republicans who do not understand that conservative means not spending as much, you create a bad economic situation.

The War in Iraq proves how non-conservative the ruling party is. The war is a billion - trillion dollar a year deficit. A true conservative would have waited and thought the risk vs. gain of the war in Iraq, and re-evaluate it every year that we are there. Since the deficit is continuous with it and there is next to no progress overall, a true conservative would bow out gracefully after spending maybe a year tapering themselves out of the region. Now, the region is so reliant upon us, that the second we leave, it'll collapse.
Actually, Mr.President is also known as the Commander in Chief of the armed forces, he can have the military do what he wants, although he cannot declare the US in a state of war.
It is officially police action, not war.
 

Aesir

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Actually, Mr.President is also known as the Commander in Chief of the armed forces, he can have the military do what he wants, although he cannot declare the US in a state of war.
It is officially police action, not war.
He needs the approval of congress, that's the whole point of our 3 part government to prevent abuses in power so no part of the government has to much power.
 

Crimson King

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Actually, Mr.President is also known as the Commander in Chief of the armed forces, he can have the military do what he wants, although he cannot declare the US in a state of war.
It is officially police action, not war.
Yeah, that was never the original intent. In fact, the forefathers were against "police action" of any type. It would be hypocritical for the US, a rebellious colony, to support something like it when they could have easily been the victims of it.
 

Kur

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The problem is every branch of the government has gotten way beyond its natural intent. The Judicial Branch was never intended to be the end-all-be-all on constitutionality of laws. Congress was never ended to be a backseat to the president, and the president was never intended to be able to go to war at whim. When you have this imbalance of power, and Republicans who do not understand that conservative means not spending as much, you create a bad economic situation.

The War in Iraq proves how non-conservative the ruling party is. The war is a billion - trillion dollar a year deficit. A true conservative would have waited and thought the risk vs. gain of the war in Iraq, and re-evaluate it every year that we are there. Since the deficit is continuous with it and there is next to no progress overall, a true conservative would bow out gracefully after spending maybe a year tapering themselves out of the region. Now, the region is so reliant upon us, that the second we leave, it'll collapse.
The Supreme courts only job is supposed to be interpreting the constitution. They were never supposed to create laws, ban anything, support anything, or anything of the sort.

It seems right now that congress is running the country. It doesn't help that there is a democratic majority right now either. They are the ones not doing what needs to be done to get this economic slow down to end. They are the ones preventing us from drilling for oil, denying our rights, and forcing ridiculous laws on us.

I agree that the ruling party right now is not conservative, but not because of the 'war'.

Yes the war costs a lot of money, but guess what? Right now you are paying less taxes than you were before Bush was elected AND the national deficits rate of growth has not changed.

And there HAS been undeniable progress in Iraq. The surge worked. Their government is taking hold, terrorism around the world has gone down 40% since the 'war' started, Saddam is out of power, 50 million people have been liberated, and the Iraqi citizens who left the country because of the war are beginning to go back.

So claiming the 'war' isn't going well so we should leave just doesn't work.

Also, if you are going to weigh the risk/reward of being in Iraq, you have to look at the consequences of pulling out, even if gradually over a year. The newly forming Iraqi military would be split by the 3 ethnic groups of Iraq leading to a civil war. The terrorist organizations that we have on the run would find a heck of a home base in the form of the entire country of Iraq. Leaving would be sure sign of weakness to countries like Iran, North Korea, etc. And we have a responsibility to our allies in the area. We have to show that if they need our help, we won't cut and run just because the liberals back home are protesting.

There is a lot of bad that would happen if we left before finishing the job. Not a whole lot of good would happen if we left either.

And true conservatives realize all this. That is why true conservatives do not want to leave Iraq until the job is finished.

And of course the region is reliant upon us. It has been since before the 'war' even started. If we spent one year there taking out Saddam and then leaving, it is not like the country would just pick itself up and do all the things needed to establish a working democracy. As soon as our foot was out the door, al'Queada's foot would be in the door, or Irans, or whoever else.


He needs the approval of congress, that's the whole point of our 3 part government to prevent abuses in power so no part of the government has to much power.
He got the approval of congress. The War Powers Resolution Act. It was not a police action, it is not a declaration of war, it is a specific action for the purposes of protecting the United States. It is also very limiting in what it allows the president to do.

And just FYI, the constitution does not limit in anyway the power of the president to go to war. It simply states that congress has the sole power to declare war. If you really look at the wording, what is that saying? 'declare war'. It just means that congress has the sole power to acknowledge that the country is at war. Just as the president can 'declare' someplace a disaster area. That doesn't mean it wasn't a disaster area before he got there.

Make war and 'declare' war are two different things. It would have been very sloppy of the founding fathers to make that mistake. A declaration of war is what suddenly gives the president more power than what he had before, giving him freedoms and responsibilities used for all out war, such as what the president could do during WW2.

This 'war' in Iraq is NOT war. It is an action for the purposes of protecting the country. No declaration of war is needed.

Under the constitution the president has the power to "take care that the laws be faithfully executed" and Article VI affirms that treaties are part of the "supreme law of the land."

When Congress overwhelmingly approved the 1945 U.N. Participation Act (UNPA), the unanimous House report explained that the ratification of the U.N. Charter "resulted in the vesting in the executive branch of the power and obligation to fulfill the commitments assumed by the United States thereunder." Quoting the unanimous Senate report urging charter ratification, the House report added that the use of U.S. armed forces to enforce the charter "would not be an act of war but would be international action for the preservation of the peace," and thus "the provisions of the charter do not affect the exclusive power of the Congress to declare war."

Even without the 1945 UN Participation Act, the wording of the constitution gives the president power to use the military to enforce laws, enforce treaties, and take action against threats to the US or the ideas of the constitution.

By now you may be asking where the checks and balances are in this situation? We all know the founding fathers were all about checks and balances.

The balance is that Congress funds the military. The president is the commander in chief, but without the funds from congress, he can't do anything. If congress really wants Bush to stop what he is doing in Iraq, all they have to do is cut funding. It is specifically written in the constitution that Congress alone funds the military.
 
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