Ultimate still uses Smash 3DS/Wii U's shortened music but can we change that? Twitter hashtag: #ExpandSong

[Frostwraith]

(Please, also check my post on r/smashbros: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/9ttvo3/smash_bros_ultimate_still_uses_smash_3dswii_us/)

As many of you probably know, back when Super Smash Bros. for 3DS/Wii U were released, something people noticed was how some songs, including songs from previous Smash Bros. games, got shortened and cut down. The reasons for this are unknown but may likely be related to memory issues. Brawl had a similar issue with some Sonic vocal songs such as Live & Learn, and Sonic is known to have been a late addition, so they probably were running out of resources or there may have been licensing issues as Sonic is a third-party franchise.

All this said, here is some evidence pointing towards it being memory issues include:

1. Some songs such as Xenoblade's Mechanical Rhythm, Brawl's Final Destination or the Mega Man 2 Retro Medley are around or even over 3 minutes long and got no cuts whatsoever. This refutes the idea that songs were cut down to fit with a 2 minute time limit (matching the default time battle ruleset), although that may have been used a reference when making the short edits.
2. The two 3DS-exclusive songs from Kid Icarus: Uprising that are 5 minutes long to fit with Smash Run's time limit, so shortening them would defeat their purpose as they don't even loop. They're most likely not in Ultimate as Smash Run isn't in it.
3. The original song lengths (before getting cuts) are very inconsistent and some would be shorter at full length than unchanged tracks in-game. One example is Melee's Brinstar which is originally around 2:45 long and got chopped down to around 1:40.
4. There isn't necessarily a correlation between song length and the memory space a song takes. A reason why the Mega Man 2 Retro Medley went over the 3 minute mark is most likely due to not taking as much memory for being an 8-bit chiptune song, whereas a fully orchestrated song is far more susceptible to sound quality changes, needing more memory to maintain a clear high quality sound.
5. For DLC, only Lost in Thoughts All Alone (original version) from Fire Emblem Fates got shortened from 6 minutes to 3 minutes, which is still longer than the shortenings to 2 minutes, and all Bayonetta songs getting in the game with no changes, even lengthier ones over 3 minutes. This is possibly the best evidence that memory is the key issue behind all this. Although in the case of vocal songs, the short versions could be due to licensing restrictions.

With Ultimate, the shortened version of the DK Rap had been heard in the E3 demo for the Kongo Falls stage. However, it was just a demo not reflective of the final product. In the August 8 Direct the total number of songs is confirmed to be over 800, having more music than Smash Wii U and potentially a need to cut corners again. After Sakurai published a Famitsu article on the Direct's contents, that's when my hopes got up that the shortened songs could be replaced by their respective full versions in the final game.

Quoting Sakurai: "This is a little bit of trivia, but thanks to improvements in compression technology, we were able to fit all this music into the game without sacrificing audio quality in only a quarter of the space it took in Smash for Wii U. It’s like magic!" (Source: https://www.sourcegaming.info/2018/...smash-direct-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-561/)

This time, memory was not an issue: Ultimate's soundtrack only takes 25% of the memory space the Wii U soundtrack. That's an incredible feat, and seeing that songs with lengths of even around 3:30 were spotted in the sound test in footage from the Direct, that is a sign that there is no need to shorten songs as they did in previous games. That means, it's likely that these shorter versions of music are simply a carry over from porting Smash 3DS/Wii U's soundtrack and building upon it, a smart move as it lessens the amount of resources, however, for a game that prides itself on its massive amount of content and being an ambitious crossover, the fact some songs aren't in their full versions as fans remember them sure leaves a sour mark on its majestic 800+ song collection spanning many games and many iconic, memorable and fan-favorite songs from across gaming.

With DLC still not having even started development, we're in time to make a change. I urge people to contact Nintendo and give them feedback on this matter so the songs can be patched to their full versions, but please, don't harass Sakurai or anyone else. With Ultimate, they've proven time and time again that they're listening to us and want to deliver the best product by catering to the competitive community, adding a new story mode, adding highly requested characters like Ridley and K. Rool and adding even more options to the game.

Music is a big part of Smash Bros. and it's disheartening to me as a video game music fan that not all songs can be appreciated in Smash as their full versions, and it is my hope that we can make one more change and have Smash Bros. Ultimate even more deserving of its title.

With all this said, I thank you for reading this far, and hope the fanbase can unite on this matter and we can reach out to Nintendo and Sakurai to make this change happen.

Here is a list of the songs that were edited from their original counterparts. There are links to both renditions and next to them are the run times before a loop, so they may not match with the total length shown in those videos.

Spoiler: Super Mario Bros. series

Super Mario Galaxy
From: Super Mario Galaxy (Original)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBrwceBdDQQ (4:03)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXlbgSCkknM (2:50)
Amount of time cut: 1:13
Notes: Song still goes over the 2 minute mark by a significant amount. The edit removes some mid-sections of the song and it still doesn't have a proper loop, so that wasn't the purpose of the edit in the first place.

Spoiler: Donkey Kong series

Kongo Jungle
From: Donkey Kong Country (Smash 64 remix)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZSggYMBfUE (2:37)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSq9gpJkKPs (2:18)
Amount of time cut: 0:19
Notes: Slightly shortens the first part with the heavy drum beat. No other major changes.

DK Rap
From: Donkey Kong 64 (Melee remix)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU4vh4LX2Gk (3:34)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWr1jCLs66Q (1:58)
Amount of time cut: 1:36
Notes: Removes 4 of the song's 8 sections: the Lanky, Chunky and final verses as well as the outro before the loop.

Jungle Level
From: Donkey Kong Country (Brawl remix)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBP1Lxsj0wc (2:53)
Short version: https://youtu.be/XYWu50NYLUI?t=8710 (2:27)
Amount of time cut: 0:26
Notes: Similar to Kongo Jungle, the first part of the song is slightly shortened.

Jungle Hijinxs
From: Donkey Kong Country Returns (Original)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-Jk8SMLw3I (2:44)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JNoaWZC81s (2:07)
Amount of time cut: 0:37
Notes: As with Kongo Jungle and Jungle Level, the first part is made shorter.

Spoiler: Metroid series

Brinstar (Melee)
From: Metroid (Melee remix)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR47lpQoPc8 (2:48)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEF48FNMBJI (1:41)
Amount of time cut: 1:07
Notes: The song loops much earler than it originally did, skipping entirely on the second half with different instrumentation and a piano solo at the end.

Main Theme (Metroid)
From: Metroid (Brawl remix)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MRznLSFGFQ (3:26)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGQcJyqdaPU (2:16)
Amount of time cut: 1:10
Notes: As with its Melee counterpart, this song loops earlier than it originally did, skipping on the second half that doesn't feature the 8-bit chiptune as in the first half and has a guitar solo towards the end.

Spoiler: EarthBound/Mother series

Pollyanna (I Believe in You)
From: Mother / EarthBound Beginnings (Melee remix)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij0HptqoBxI (3:04)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0hjHunkbhQ (1:47)
Amount of time cut: 1:17
Notes: Loops much earlier than the full version, cutting the latter half of the song.

Spoiler: Fire Emblem series

Crimean Army Sortie
From: Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance (Original)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMTsEK3hR6U (3:24)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGnQ0AQLgiA (2:06)
Amount of time cut: 1:18
Notes: An entire mid-section of the song (starting around 1:32 and ending at around 2:50 in the full version) is cut off. The full version was previously featured in Brawl.

Ike's Theme (Eternal Bond)
From: Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn (Original)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dluQMPNLC8 (2:17)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qawJkfA3ew (2:01)
Amount of time cut: 0:16
Notes: Song loops slightly earlier than the original to an earlier point of the song. A minor change, but a change nonetheless. Pay close attention to how both songs flow at the 2 minute mark: the full version loops back to 0:23, while the short version loops earlier in the song and back to 0:06). The full version was previously featured in Brawl.

Id (Purpose)
From: Fire Emblem Awakening (Original)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bio99hoZVYI (4:00)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NryzZcSXQf4 (2:00)
Amount of time cut: 2:00
Notes: The song is about half of its original length, skipping various sections but keeps the beginning and ending parts and the loop is the same.

Duty (Ablaze)
From: Fire Emblem Awakening (Original)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEuUuA29h-Y (2:45)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFALeA0CXeA (2:05)
Amount of time cut: 0:40
Notes: A few sections throughout the song are cut short.

Lost in Thoughts All Alone
From: Fire Emblem Fates (Original)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENwFAmeWEYk (5:56)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiwLQAA_V8E (2:39)
Amount of time cut: 3:17
Notes: The song is about half of its original length, skipping various sections in the middle of the song as well as having a shortened intro. Like the full version, there's no loop point, so in Smash, it starts all over from the beginning.
On another note, the links above might have the song slightly altered due to copyright reasons, which may have caused this being the only DLC song in Smash 3DS/Wii U to be shortened as well.

Spoiler: Xenoblade series

Engage the Enemy
From: Xenoblade Chronicles (Original)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wdc_cDaUNQ (3:46)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8W8biow12U (2:15)
Amount of time cut: 1:31
Notes: The song has a noticeable cut at around 1:37. The latter part is also cut presumably so the song loops better, so no objections there.

Gaur Plain
From: Xenoblade Chronicles (Original)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6UhV3E2H6w (4:05)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBFuJKM1VjI (1:39)
Amount of time cut: 2:26
Notes: Song loops much earlier than the original, skipping a large portion of the song that features different strings arrangements and a part focused entirely on piano and strings before building back up with percussion to the loop point.

Gaur Plain (Night)
From: Xenoblade Chronicles (Original)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjIY5_spXhE (3:05)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBW59VhvTFU (1:44)
Amount of time cut: 1:21
Notes: Song goes back to the very beginning, skipping the second part and repeating the intro part which the full version doesn't do.

An Obstacle in Our Path
From: Xenoblade Chronicles (Original)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGW35qInfAU (3:02)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCWS3KNK_p8 (1:56)
Amount of time cut: 2:06
Notes: At 1:27 in the short version, the song skips to a much later part of the song (2:34 in the original) retaining the original loop point.

Spoiler: Sonic series

Open Your Heart
From: Sonic Adventure (Original)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRlbbpWTC9g (4:25)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECojTutpYVE (2:15)
Amount of time cut: 2:10
Notes: Short version skips the part at around 1:37 ahead to around 2:37 from the full length version, and then loops right after the guitar solo section to the first verse.

Live & Learn
From: Sonic Adventure 2 (Original)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvF6b28AwPw (4:08)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GenfP0-Ftkk (1:57)
Amount of time cut: 2:11
Notes: Short version skips from around 1:23 ahead to around 2:30 from the full length version, then loops back after the guitar solo to the first verse.

Sonic Heroes
From: Sonic Heroes (Original)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCIMIqwmP2c (3:29)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCh91PNR308 (2:00)
Amount of time cut: 1:29
Notes: The short version skips from around 1:08 ahead to around 2:00 from the full length version. The final part of the song starting at 2:54 until the end was omitted in the short version for looping, so that's a necessary cut for the song to properly loop.

Seven Rings In Hand
From: Sonic and the Secret Rings (Original)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxTEcM7VSlM (4:55)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng_xHbvliBo (2:22)
Amount of time cut: 2:33
Notes: Short version skips ahead several parts of the origiinal song but retains the same loop point.
The skipped parts are around 0:44 ahead to around 2:05 and around 3:05 ahead to around 4:40.

Knight of the Wind
From: Sonic and the Black Knight (Original)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNB4Cy4mftI (4:30)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1HQMKmaudA (2:17)
Amount of time cut: 2:13
Notes: As the full version doesn't loop, there'll always be a need to shorten it for looping purposes, however, the short version in Smash skips various middle sections.

Reach for the Stars
From: Sonic Colors (Original)
Full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eUswq5owJk (4:05)
Short version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HwpY7m6xb0 (2:46)
Amount of time cut: 1:49
Notes: The short version has the song loop towards an earlier point of the song as the full song doesn't have a loop, so in this case, it can be presumed it got shortened so it could properly loop.

Windy Hill
From: Sonic Lost World (Original)
Full version: https://youtu.be/RdHliM2iXoE (3:40)
Short version: https://youtu.be/phDac5VXh8s (2:34)
Amount of time cut: 1:06
Notes: Short version cuts loops back to around 1:28 at around 2:34 cutting everything after. In the full version, the song is much longer and loops back to the 0:11 mark.
Thanks to Mario & Sonic Guy for this information.

Total amount of time cut: 35 minutes and 31 seconds, which is nothing compared to 28 hours of music and likely wouldn't take as much memory, especially with the enhanced compression.

 

[Yosher]

Hmm. Admittedly I never really noticed this in Smash 4. All I noticed in that game was that some songs just awkwardly started over after playing fully, giving a short moment of silence when the song ended, and that was honestly much more disturbing to me personally and I hope that if these songs are included again, that they'll properly loop this time.

Do you really think it's a good idea to patch the full songs into the game though? This won't necessarily replace the old, cut-off song as those will still be in the game's memory, and I don't think they could just easily copy-paste the missing parts of songs into the game, so they'd need to put the full, un-cut version in there through a patch. And even with that compression technology, depending on the amount of songs that will need to be patched that way (which, by the sound of it, are quite a few), it will take up a fair amount of memory on the Switch, memory that not everyone will have available.

That said, due to the fact that they also allow users to use their Switch as a music player with this game, along with that Sakurai quote you put up.. I don't think there's too much to worry about on this department yet, but of course it remains to be seen once the final product lands. I do love me some video game music as well and I do hope most, if not all songs will be available in their full versions, but I'm not sure if fixing that through patches is really the way to go. Maybe they could offer a free 'Music Fix Pack' in the eShop for those that want this.

I'll look forward to the list you'll be compiling though, I'm rather curious now which songs got edited and cut down in Smash 4. Just to be sure though, are you sure the 'missing parts' aren't just loops, though? I'm sure your list will clarify things more for me when you post it, but I just never really noticed it myself (possibly due to being too engaged in the action to pay enough attention to any missing parts).

 

[Frostwraith]

Hmm. Admittedly I never really noticed this in Smash 4. All I noticed in that game was that some songs just awkwardly started over after playing fully, giving a short moment of silence when the song ended, and that was honestly much more disturbing to me personally and I hope that if these songs are included again, that they'll properly loop this time.

Do you really think it's a good idea to patch the full songs into the game though? This won't necessarily replace the old, cut-off song as those will still be in the game's memory, and I don't think they could just easily copy-paste the missing parts of songs into the game, so they'd need to put the full, un-cut version in there through a patch. And even with that compression technology, depending on the amount of songs that will need to be patched that way (which, by the sound of it, are quite a few), it will take up a fair amount of memory on the Switch, memory that not everyone will have available.

That said, due to the fact that they also allow users to use their Switch as a music player with this game, along with that Sakurai quote you put up.. I don't think there's too much to worry about on this department yet, but of course it remains to be seen once the final product lands. I do love me some video game music as well and I do hope most, if not all songs will be available in their full versions, but I'm not sure if fixing that through patches is really the way to go. Maybe they could offer a free 'Music Fix Pack' in the eShop for those that want this.

I'll look forward to the list you'll be compiling though, I'm rather curious now which songs got edited and cut down in Smash 4. Just to be sure though, are you sure the 'missing parts' aren't just loops, though? I'm sure your list will clarify things more for me when you post it, but I just never really noticed it myself (possibly due to being too engaged in the action to pay enough attention to any missing parts).

I've updated the OP with song links and details on how the songs were shortened, except for the Sonic songs that I'll be doing later and that I'm less familiar with and may involve licensing issues. Please take a listen! There are not many of them, but as you can see, Donkey Kong, Fire Emblem and Xenoblade got shafted in particular. It's a small amount of them and in 800 songs, adding the missing parts to them probably wouldn't be much of

As for the rest of your comment, I think it's a matter of not knowing until we try to have a solid campaign to change this. The game hasn't even released, yet there's evidence that the shortened songs from Smash Wii U are back in Smash Ultimate as opposed to their full versions.

A patch to fix this wouldn't take a lot of memory in the first place considering the factors described in the OP. Anyway, thanks for the comment and hopefully, you'll support this idea.

 

[Deleted member]

This is an excellent topic here. With only around twenty songs or so, it would not take up a lot of space. It's a win-win situation and I want to see this happen.

#ExpandSong

 

[Arthur97]

I just want DK Rap and Id (Purpose) full length.

 

[Frostwraith]

Updated the OP with some of the Sonic songs. Not all of them covered yet as I'm not as familiar with Sonic music besides those in the OP right now.

If you're on Twitter and want to spread the word, use the hashtag #ExpandSong. Thanks for the support!

 

[RawkHawk2010]

Nintendo really, really needs to heed this, especially after they hired an actress to promote Ultimate as a portable music library.

#JusticeForDKRap #JusticeForPollyanna #JusticeForEngageTheEnemy

 

[Frostwraith]

Nintendo really, really needs to heed this, especially after they hired an actress to promote Ultimate as a portable music library.

#JusticeForDKRap #JusticeForPollyanna #JusticeForEngageTheEnemy

Doesn't make sense to have such an option and then have songs that clearly aren't as we remember them.

Engage the Enemy is such an egregious case with the cut being so abrupt, it sounds unnatural and it's hard to believe it was done by a professional at their audio team.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

The only one that bothers me is the DK rap...and I don't even like the remixed version in the first place. Just gives us the original ripped Melee version, and I'm good.

Honestly, I never even noticed the others.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Just so you know, Windy Hill in Smash Wii U always repeats the second half of the BGM, instead of restarting the loop at the first half. Also, the second half is shorter than in the full version of the BGM.

Full Version: https://youtu.be/RdHliM2iXoE (loop begins at 3:40, restarting at 0:11)
Shortened Version: https://youtu.be/phDac5VXh8s (loop begins at 2:34, but the BGM restarts at 1:28)

 

[Frostwraith]

Just so you know, Windy Hill in Smash Wii U always repeats the second half of the BGM, instead of restarting the loop at the first half. Also, the second half is shorter than in the full version of the BGM.

Full Version: https://youtu.be/RdHliM2iXoE (loop begins at 3:40, restarting at 0:11)
Shortened Version: https://youtu.be/phDac5VXh8s (loop begins at 2:34, but the BGM restarts at 1:28)

I had no idea about that song and that means I might be missing more songs that also got shortened.

All feedback is welcome especially if it brings other such cases to light. Thank you!

 

[MOV_Games]

Even Studiopolis Zone's looping point is slightly different than the original in game version, instead of looping at another "Lights, Camera, Action!" it has a different section used for the loop. It's a really weird change, and you can hear what I mean from these two videos:
Original: https://youtu.be/lXPlQHHS4XU?t=1m36s

Smash: https://youtu.be/6UV_T1F8188?t=1m36s

Thanks for the list of cut down tracks, I now know exactly what to turn off in my music. I absolutely cannot stand butchered music tracks. At least all the additions not from WiiU seem to be uncut, Darkest Lord from Miitopia for example is the full four minute loop.

 

[Giveaway412]

The SSBU version of SSB64 Training Mode is also abridged.

Original: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deVC2Zx3JMQ

Abridged version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZemKQaTn8A

 

[MOV_Games]

The SSBU version of SSB64 Training Mode is also abridged.

Original: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deVC2Zx3JMQ

Abridged version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZemKQaTn8A

Damn, I thought they had stopped cutting down the newly added tracks in Ultimate.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

More like #ExpandDong, amirite.......? (Proceeds to cry over short music loops).

 

[DarkMarxSoul]

In Smash Wii U, "Battle! (Champion) - Pokémon X/Y" was shortened as well—a bit off the end near the loop. I don't know if it still is in Ultimate.

 

[Xelrog]

This would require far too much effort for Nintendo to bother to change. If we're choosing between two things that will never happen, I'd rather invest my argument in getting Nintendo to allow modding. At least music modding. I had a lot of fun replacing the audio tracks in Smash Wii U.