choknater
Smash Obsessed
Alright, so I've been playing a lot of friendlies and trying new things. Here's my two cents on two very little used special moves of the Ice Climbers: up-B and down-B
part 1: BELAY
Pros
- Nana has a LOT invincibility
- Knockback kills floaties at 100+ percents
- DI after the belay can confuse opponents
- you are fairly safe afterwards if it connects, but the percent has to be high enough (sometimes if it is a fast faller, you still won't be safe)
- as long as nana is not in a tumbling animation, you can teleport her to popo for the belay from a good distance. this helps both to save nana for the recovery and sometimes to help nana dodge an attack.. for example, if popo was knocked off and you are trying to recover, sometimes you can save nana from an fsmash by pressing up-B right before she gets hit. this may or may not benefit you, but it's definitely another option
- DID I MENTION NANA HAS INVINCIBILITY?
Cons
- Extreme Lag, you WILL get hit afterwards (possibly to death) if you miss
- Not useful as an attack at low %'s because popo has way too much hangtime when coming down
- smart opponents might wait intil nana is completely on the ground and standing still before they attack because they know about the invincibility frames
- don't belay parallel to the ledge because if you are interrupted by a projectile (like laser or missile) then you might be screwed.
- i consider that fancy belay cancel where popo sweetspots and nana goes up a CON because it frees up nana for DEATH lol.
- even though i listed more pros, the cons are much more prominent.
Right now, I'm going to discuss belay as an attack. I am well aware of its uses as a recovery, and I'm sure most of you do too. But have you ever considered abusing its invincibility for attacking? I remember Gimpyfish saying that one has to look at the strong points of a character and accentuate them with your knowledge of that character's weaknesses... ever since then, I have been freely experimenting with less used moves like Belay, dtilt, blizzard, squall, and nair in friendlies.
Belay is VERY situational as an attack, but finding those situations can be very valuable when you can find no other options to continue a combo. Given, this attack usually doesn't combo after anything, but the fact that Nana is invincible at first makes it very useful for vertical kills at high percents. This attack can make Yoshi Story or Pokemon Stadium even MORE useful for the IC's.
Here are some situational things that matter when trying to attack with this move
- the opponent must be above you, obviously
- you have to have hit the opponent high enough to be able to anticipate his fall
- the opponent must be at a high percent, like 80 or above, depending on the stage
- if the opponent is like 100% or over, you can likely kill on PS or YS
- you must not miss
some cool things to know:
- belay will cancel pretty much anything nana is doing (is there anytime you CAN'T belay besides when nana is tumbling?)
- you can double jump with popo and still teleport nana for the belay, which makes you go VERY high (high enough that popo will gain percentage on the top magnifying glass)
- way more useful against floaties than fast fallers, because it hits them higher and they are less likely to punish
- if you use it right... it is great against peach, luigi, samus! guys... isn't that awesome? and can you find other possibilities?
- unexpected move. obviously. if this move ever becomes a popular option, though (which is unlikely), people might start to adapt and expect it. you see, ice climbers to me have always been a learning process. people evolve and adapt to new moves, which is why i wrote the no-grabs guide. counter picks are always changing because this character isn't used very much. ic's used to **** falco, now the match is even. now, IMO, i'm not struggling with peach nearly as much as i used to. fox is easy, falcon is a breeze, sheik is hard, and samus isn't that hard. times are changing.
so yeah, for now, belay is an unexpected attack! use it while it's still unpredictable!
here is an excellent example of a belay kill, but unfortunately my only one caught on video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uMQ1MCER4BA
skip to the very last KO
part 2: BLIZZARD
Pros
- jump and short hop blizzards shoot in the same direction. this is very important. ground blizzards are useful too if you want the defensive coverage on both sides, but more than likely you will want to do an SH blizzard for more damage and reliability
- stops many, many, many non-projectile approaches
- basically they are holding out a long distance shield in front of them that also damages, and sometimes freezes
- stops people in their tracks
- don't forget bout the high % freeze, if you react fast enough, you can punish hard
- spotdodge/roll desynch blizzards are very useful defensively
- if you are ever doing a continuous desynch, it is interesting both defensively and offensively if you alternate between nana blizzards and various popo attacks (tilts, smashes, ice blocks, tilts, short hop aerials, taunts... belay?) nana's blizzards will cover your front while popo is free to do anything in between
- because of nana's blizzard duration, it is a very easy and effective desynch move for nana
Cons
- sometimes if you mess up a desynch and blizzard will popo, nana will always blizzard behind you afterwards, even if she is already doing a desynched attack. this leaves her open facing the opposite direction (no ice, no ice-shield!) which leaves popo open also
- doesn't stop missiles/lasers/other projectiles
- there is little lag before and afterwards, but overall the move is slow and very punishable (though less punishable than most might think)
- requires precision timing and spacing because if you are too close/too far/too early/too late, it could be bad news
- once again, i listed more pros, but the cons weigh more heavily. it is better to know both and accentuate the pros.
Blizzard is an amazing option I discovered while playing my friend's DK. A lot of you might not know about the DK vs IC's matchup, but DK's fight it by spamming bairs, running away, and charging the giant punch. The giant punch is VERY difficult to avoid, it is safe when it hits your shield, and it hits nana very often. One climber vs DK isn't very pretty...
Unless of course, you spam blizzards ^_^. I discovered this when I realized that DK doesn't have any projectiles. So what if I started using my projectiles? Well ice blocks are too small and don't have much effect on DK since he is already running away and can easily jump over them or dtilt them. So I tried sh blizzards and defensive blizzards, and they stopped him in his tracks EVERY TIME. They even stopped his giant punch when I spaced correctly. Blizzards stopped all his approaches, and I was free to approach with fairs and smashes (the hard this and disjointed hitboxes make them hard for him to punish, and abuse his bad shield.) When I discovered this, I was able to breeze (pun intended!) through the matchup because DK had no options left against me but to run away and TRY to bair me.
Even though giant punches were still very deadly, using blizzards made it much easier for me to get grabs in, especially after Nana blizzards because DK is such a noob at getting away from blizzard chase to grab. His spot dodge sucks and his roll opens him up for more blizzards. He can do pretty much nothing if you just come at him with a running sh blizzard. Remember he has no weapons and projectiles and a bad shield. This means he can GET GRABBED, and get *****.
DK is just one example that shows blizzard's usefulness. Here are other possibilities where I have found it useful:
- Peach vs IC's is all about ground control. IC's are ground based, and Peach's dsmash covers all their approaches... except the blizzard!! short hop blizzards will stop her if she is just camping there and dsmashing! it is free damage! However, it is actually better to approach her with blizzards than camp her with them, because her turnips will go through them.
- Blizzards are very similar to a tap reset when edgeguarding! spot dodge > nana blizzard > turn around wd ff edgehog! very effective edgeguard against people recovering from underneath! if they try to sweetspot, you are edgehogging... if they go over, they will be tap resetted by the blizzard! time this right when you know the person will try to recover. (one time against a falco he was tapped by the blizzard and he fell and didn't upB in time and i edgehogged im! YAYUHZZZ!)
- ever been laser camped by falco? and he's not getting hit by ice blocks? throw yourself at him with a double short hop blizzard. you will get hit by a laser while nana keeps going with ice in front of her. this can set up a grab or smash!
- captain falcon likes to approach with short hop attacks that come straight at you. if you sh blizzard, it may disrupt his approach and possibly set him up for a grab. reverse dair for a 0-death!
discuss belay and blizzard!!
__________________
notes from choknater:
These are certainly not all the possibilities, but I hope they have opened your eyes to some uses of less-known moves. They are not combo moves, but it's alright because we already know everything about IC uair combos and grab combos and stuff. They are moves that abuse disjointed hitboxes and invincibility for offensive and defensive purposes.
Once again, my main objective when giving IC's advice is to inspire CREATIVITY. My threads are always the tip of the iceberg when it comes to expanding your IC play. My goal is to help everyone develop that mentality that cookie cutter ice climber strategies are very easy to counter. If you play a regular ice climbers, you will not succeed. A great ice climber player is noted NOT by his ability to wavesmash and chain grab, but by two things:
1. his creativity in his gameplay
2. his ability to play solo popo
let's take a looksee at the good ic's of today:
ChuDat has pioneered this character from the start, and has invented/perfected almost every basic/advanced IC technique that we use today. one person once said "every ic player is an afterthought of chudat" which is true
wobbles likes to infinite, and has worked his gameplay around the infinite. since then, he has morphed into this very technical and risk-taking ic's that is very unique and his combo inventions are off the chain
azn_lep has taken to heart every grab combo in existence and uses them very well. he is a very experienced ic's and has given advice to every ic player on these boards. i like him a lot lol, he is good and helps me out. if it wasn't for him, i wouldn't have taken a round off silentspectre.
as for me, i am known for NOT KNOWING how to wobble correctly, and chain grab poorly, so i make up ridiculous combos and techniques and i have to master my mobility to be able to get those grabs in. i always expect people to escape my CG's and infinite attempts, so i do a couple cg's/wobble hits and then do something else. that's me. that's my ice climbers.
so now i ask you, what makes YOU a good ice climber player?
Discuss.
part 1: BELAY
Pros
- Nana has a LOT invincibility
- Knockback kills floaties at 100+ percents
- DI after the belay can confuse opponents
- you are fairly safe afterwards if it connects, but the percent has to be high enough (sometimes if it is a fast faller, you still won't be safe)
- as long as nana is not in a tumbling animation, you can teleport her to popo for the belay from a good distance. this helps both to save nana for the recovery and sometimes to help nana dodge an attack.. for example, if popo was knocked off and you are trying to recover, sometimes you can save nana from an fsmash by pressing up-B right before she gets hit. this may or may not benefit you, but it's definitely another option
- DID I MENTION NANA HAS INVINCIBILITY?
Cons
- Extreme Lag, you WILL get hit afterwards (possibly to death) if you miss
- Not useful as an attack at low %'s because popo has way too much hangtime when coming down
- smart opponents might wait intil nana is completely on the ground and standing still before they attack because they know about the invincibility frames
- don't belay parallel to the ledge because if you are interrupted by a projectile (like laser or missile) then you might be screwed.
- i consider that fancy belay cancel where popo sweetspots and nana goes up a CON because it frees up nana for DEATH lol.
- even though i listed more pros, the cons are much more prominent.
Right now, I'm going to discuss belay as an attack. I am well aware of its uses as a recovery, and I'm sure most of you do too. But have you ever considered abusing its invincibility for attacking? I remember Gimpyfish saying that one has to look at the strong points of a character and accentuate them with your knowledge of that character's weaknesses... ever since then, I have been freely experimenting with less used moves like Belay, dtilt, blizzard, squall, and nair in friendlies.
Belay is VERY situational as an attack, but finding those situations can be very valuable when you can find no other options to continue a combo. Given, this attack usually doesn't combo after anything, but the fact that Nana is invincible at first makes it very useful for vertical kills at high percents. This attack can make Yoshi Story or Pokemon Stadium even MORE useful for the IC's.
Here are some situational things that matter when trying to attack with this move
- the opponent must be above you, obviously
- you have to have hit the opponent high enough to be able to anticipate his fall
- the opponent must be at a high percent, like 80 or above, depending on the stage
- if the opponent is like 100% or over, you can likely kill on PS or YS
- you must not miss
some cool things to know:
- belay will cancel pretty much anything nana is doing (is there anytime you CAN'T belay besides when nana is tumbling?)
- you can double jump with popo and still teleport nana for the belay, which makes you go VERY high (high enough that popo will gain percentage on the top magnifying glass)
- way more useful against floaties than fast fallers, because it hits them higher and they are less likely to punish
- if you use it right... it is great against peach, luigi, samus! guys... isn't that awesome? and can you find other possibilities?
- unexpected move. obviously. if this move ever becomes a popular option, though (which is unlikely), people might start to adapt and expect it. you see, ice climbers to me have always been a learning process. people evolve and adapt to new moves, which is why i wrote the no-grabs guide. counter picks are always changing because this character isn't used very much. ic's used to **** falco, now the match is even. now, IMO, i'm not struggling with peach nearly as much as i used to. fox is easy, falcon is a breeze, sheik is hard, and samus isn't that hard. times are changing.
so yeah, for now, belay is an unexpected attack! use it while it's still unpredictable!
here is an excellent example of a belay kill, but unfortunately my only one caught on video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uMQ1MCER4BA
skip to the very last KO
part 2: BLIZZARD
Pros
- jump and short hop blizzards shoot in the same direction. this is very important. ground blizzards are useful too if you want the defensive coverage on both sides, but more than likely you will want to do an SH blizzard for more damage and reliability
- stops many, many, many non-projectile approaches
- basically they are holding out a long distance shield in front of them that also damages, and sometimes freezes
- stops people in their tracks
- don't forget bout the high % freeze, if you react fast enough, you can punish hard
- spotdodge/roll desynch blizzards are very useful defensively
- if you are ever doing a continuous desynch, it is interesting both defensively and offensively if you alternate between nana blizzards and various popo attacks (tilts, smashes, ice blocks, tilts, short hop aerials, taunts... belay?) nana's blizzards will cover your front while popo is free to do anything in between
- because of nana's blizzard duration, it is a very easy and effective desynch move for nana
Cons
- sometimes if you mess up a desynch and blizzard will popo, nana will always blizzard behind you afterwards, even if she is already doing a desynched attack. this leaves her open facing the opposite direction (no ice, no ice-shield!) which leaves popo open also
- doesn't stop missiles/lasers/other projectiles
- there is little lag before and afterwards, but overall the move is slow and very punishable (though less punishable than most might think)
- requires precision timing and spacing because if you are too close/too far/too early/too late, it could be bad news
- once again, i listed more pros, but the cons weigh more heavily. it is better to know both and accentuate the pros.
Blizzard is an amazing option I discovered while playing my friend's DK. A lot of you might not know about the DK vs IC's matchup, but DK's fight it by spamming bairs, running away, and charging the giant punch. The giant punch is VERY difficult to avoid, it is safe when it hits your shield, and it hits nana very often. One climber vs DK isn't very pretty...
Unless of course, you spam blizzards ^_^. I discovered this when I realized that DK doesn't have any projectiles. So what if I started using my projectiles? Well ice blocks are too small and don't have much effect on DK since he is already running away and can easily jump over them or dtilt them. So I tried sh blizzards and defensive blizzards, and they stopped him in his tracks EVERY TIME. They even stopped his giant punch when I spaced correctly. Blizzards stopped all his approaches, and I was free to approach with fairs and smashes (the hard this and disjointed hitboxes make them hard for him to punish, and abuse his bad shield.) When I discovered this, I was able to breeze (pun intended!) through the matchup because DK had no options left against me but to run away and TRY to bair me.
Even though giant punches were still very deadly, using blizzards made it much easier for me to get grabs in, especially after Nana blizzards because DK is such a noob at getting away from blizzard chase to grab. His spot dodge sucks and his roll opens him up for more blizzards. He can do pretty much nothing if you just come at him with a running sh blizzard. Remember he has no weapons and projectiles and a bad shield. This means he can GET GRABBED, and get *****.
DK is just one example that shows blizzard's usefulness. Here are other possibilities where I have found it useful:
- Peach vs IC's is all about ground control. IC's are ground based, and Peach's dsmash covers all their approaches... except the blizzard!! short hop blizzards will stop her if she is just camping there and dsmashing! it is free damage! However, it is actually better to approach her with blizzards than camp her with them, because her turnips will go through them.
- Blizzards are very similar to a tap reset when edgeguarding! spot dodge > nana blizzard > turn around wd ff edgehog! very effective edgeguard against people recovering from underneath! if they try to sweetspot, you are edgehogging... if they go over, they will be tap resetted by the blizzard! time this right when you know the person will try to recover. (one time against a falco he was tapped by the blizzard and he fell and didn't upB in time and i edgehogged im! YAYUHZZZ!)
- ever been laser camped by falco? and he's not getting hit by ice blocks? throw yourself at him with a double short hop blizzard. you will get hit by a laser while nana keeps going with ice in front of her. this can set up a grab or smash!
- captain falcon likes to approach with short hop attacks that come straight at you. if you sh blizzard, it may disrupt his approach and possibly set him up for a grab. reverse dair for a 0-death!
discuss belay and blizzard!!
__________________
notes from choknater:
These are certainly not all the possibilities, but I hope they have opened your eyes to some uses of less-known moves. They are not combo moves, but it's alright because we already know everything about IC uair combos and grab combos and stuff. They are moves that abuse disjointed hitboxes and invincibility for offensive and defensive purposes.
Once again, my main objective when giving IC's advice is to inspire CREATIVITY. My threads are always the tip of the iceberg when it comes to expanding your IC play. My goal is to help everyone develop that mentality that cookie cutter ice climber strategies are very easy to counter. If you play a regular ice climbers, you will not succeed. A great ice climber player is noted NOT by his ability to wavesmash and chain grab, but by two things:
1. his creativity in his gameplay
2. his ability to play solo popo
let's take a looksee at the good ic's of today:
ChuDat has pioneered this character from the start, and has invented/perfected almost every basic/advanced IC technique that we use today. one person once said "every ic player is an afterthought of chudat" which is true
wobbles likes to infinite, and has worked his gameplay around the infinite. since then, he has morphed into this very technical and risk-taking ic's that is very unique and his combo inventions are off the chain
azn_lep has taken to heart every grab combo in existence and uses them very well. he is a very experienced ic's and has given advice to every ic player on these boards. i like him a lot lol, he is good and helps me out. if it wasn't for him, i wouldn't have taken a round off silentspectre.
as for me, i am known for NOT KNOWING how to wobble correctly, and chain grab poorly, so i make up ridiculous combos and techniques and i have to master my mobility to be able to get those grabs in. i always expect people to escape my CG's and infinite attempts, so i do a couple cg's/wobble hits and then do something else. that's me. that's my ice climbers.
so now i ask you, what makes YOU a good ice climber player?
Discuss.
.
thnx!