TSM | ZeRo - Let's Talk: Bayonetta Drama

In the Smash 4 community Bayonetta has been the current cause for drama and discussion. The newest DLC and essentially the winner of the Super Smash Bros. Ballot, Bayonetta has stunned many with her impressive combo game and many powerful tools. Some have called for a ban against her even this early on and the debates on her range from polite to fiery across the board. TSM's own ZeRo, the Chillean master of Smash 4 famous for his massive tournament winning streak, has created a video to share his thoughts on the matter and promote discussion on the subject. Agree with what he has to say?

A lot of points were made in this video and we encourage our readers to discuss them in the comments below. Where will Bayonetta end up in competitive play? Will she be nerfed? Only time can tell but we promise Smashboards will be there to report the story as it develops.

 

I'm starting to think the smash community are a bunch of babies.
Here is a solution, Learn the Match up! Just learn how to deal with her. Yes I agree she carries players, but that's what a character is supposed to do. People who complain about Bayonetta being to good are just looking for an escape goat.

If you don't want to learn the MU, pick up Bayonetta.

And if you don't want to do any of those things, then continue to lose.
Just don't blame something as silly as a character for a reason.
Hell she's not even that broken.

as a Bayo player myself, if they ban her,... XD

 

For real?
This is because of Sheik getting nerfed, isn't it?
Real talk tho, Bayo's moves are pretty laggy. Just learn the matchup.
Not like she's broken, geeze. A ban, lol..

 

I honestly don't like Bayonetta. She just isn't fun to watch or play against. All of her combos kind of look the same, and witch-time is kind of jank. Plus her ability to zero to death is really absurd.

Ban worthy? Nope. I don't even think she's won anything significant yet. Not only that, but she seems to have a problem with projectile heavy characters. I really don't think she's as bad as Zero Is making her out to be.

 

Yeah, it really does just feel like this is because of the Sheik nerfs. He may say it isn't but, he only puts this out right after she is nerfed.

I also don't think this really classifies as drama. That would imply it is a situation that is compelling and exciting to watch develop, but this is really just a bunch of people moaning about a character they can't deal with.

People told me that I should fear the MU with her, but as a Rosalina player, I'm doing just fine against her, and I don't think that's for no reason either. I did just sort of sit down and analyse the MU and ultimately didn't find it bad at all.

 

Very well said by Zero. As a Communications major I also appreciated the bullet points! Am I the only one that actually enjoys the MU though? My scene and I have been discussing this since we've watched Zero's video and there are plenty of other matchups that I'd prefer not to see as opposed to Bayo. Rosa and Cloud to name a couple. It's important for everyone to realize that Bayonetta is still relatively new. Only time will tell how she will fit in the meta, and by no means should we over exaggerate her inclusion to Smash 4. In the Michigan scene, there has already been a TO that BANNED her at his tournaments. A prime example of things we shouldn't even begin to consider at this point and time.

 

Adaptation is cool.

We Smash players should try it some time.

 

I think people should do a 'lil thing called "gitting gud".

EDIT: Haha, I'm such a jokester. I should have been more serious about this. Sorry.

 

I'm starting to think the smash community are a bunch of babies.
Here is a solution, Learn the Match up! Just learn how to deal with her. Yes I agree she carries players, but that's what a character is supposed to do. People who complain about Bayonetta being to good are just looking for an escape goat.

If you don't want to learn the MU, pick up Bayonetta.

And if you don't want to do any of those things, then continue to lose.
Just don't blame something as silly as a character for a reason.
Hell she's not even that broken.

as a Bayo player myself, if they ban her,... XD

100% my thoughts. Minus the fact that I don't main Bayo lol nope not interested in her

 

People excoriating Zero for this just aren't thinking clearly. You're seriously suggesting he needs to "git gud." He'd wreck you and take your money ALL DAY.

Zero is right. Everything he said in this video is absolutely correct and deep down even the dissenters know this is the case. I'm sorry your grasp of game design is limited to "lol nothing is broken lol just adapt cause the other player totally can't do that too" -- but that's just moronic.

There are real, clear, obvious design problems with bayonetta. The data supports that. You can hide with your hands over your ears or you can listen to someone who understands the game far better than you ever will, humble yourself, and stop to think "y'know... maybe I'm wrong... maybe, just maybe, the best smash player in the world knows what he's talking about"

 

Adaption would only be relevant under the assumption that the game/character is balanced. Whenever I see someone say "adapt" but don't elaborate on the meaning, then I assume they mean pick a top tier. Which really isn't healthy for the community.

Edit: I also hate the "git gud" mentality. So if something is clearly busted (not saying that Bayo is) then I should just ignore it and get good? Alright. Then I guess Sakurai shouldn't have nerfed pre-patch Diddy or made Corrin's counter weaker. You guys just needed to "git gud."

 

People excoriating Zero for this just aren't thinking clearly. You're seriously suggesting he needs to "git gud."

Zero is right. Everything he said in this video is absolutely correct and deep down even the dissenters know this is the case. I'm sorry your grasp of game design is limited to "lol nothing is broken lol just adapt cause the other player totally can't do that too" -- but that's just moronic.

There are real, clear, obvious design problems with bayonetta. The data supports that. You can hide with your hands over your ears or you can listen to someone who understands the game far better than you ever will, humble yourself, and stop to think "y'know... maybe I'm wrong... maybe, just maybe, the best smash player in the world knows what he's talking about"

The problem with this line of logic is that it assumes ZeRo has never made a mistake.

Friendly reminder that he once considered Roy to be "top tier material". lol whatever happened to that?

Not to mention he had that famous video where he said "people need to stop complaining and just improve at the game and not make up excuses for their losses", and now what is he doing? Complaining because he doesn't like the direction things are going.

In general, I feel it's too early to complain about Bayonetta like this, especially when it's already been discovered she has trouble with certain characters.

 

It's good to be honest. If I were to say anything about it, I say just ban her from tournaments if it puts that much effect into it. I've always been on the train of"Just adapt" because of course you can adapt only because not every player is a top tier player even if they pick a top tier character, that and we've been a bit too whiny when it comes to patches so much so that it seems like you're giving a child a free toy at Toys R Us or something because they did nothing but cry instead of dealing with the fact that they can't get a new toy and have to just settle with what they have. To some degree you have to adapt, at the same time I can agree that Bayo carries some people. If it is so much of a problem then banning her from tournaments is fine, but ruining it with a patch is unfair to every other smash player who doesn't participate in tournaments and plays for fun.

 

Yeah, there's too much evidence and too many obvious design problems with the character. (she's low risk, insane reward, and effectively makes all her opponents options high risk.. )

There's a problem with the character, the empirical evidence shows it -- it's clear from an analysis of how the character functions in the context of the game and with the goal of a healthy, properly balanced risk/reward system in mind.

Zero's lending his credibility to something that's already extremely obvious. People responding with "git gud" or any variant are clowns. Sure, he could be mistaken -- so if you think something he said is actually wrong then provide a reasoned argument with data to back it up.

Don't pretend like there is no problem here, and people just need to fight the character more. Don't pretend like the problem is that people need to "git gud" (This is an absurd phrased only used by pubescent tryhards who lack the intellectual capacity for intelligent discussion... but that's beside the point). That won't fix the fact that witch-time can lead to death from a punished jab, or the fact that many of her pokes/combo starters are completely safe or punishable only by grab while a successful hit means death as long as the bayo player is competent enough to follow your DI.

Adaptation is NOT the answer to character imbalance, especially such an egregious example as we have here (You honestly think it makes sense for a character to be able to bait a jab or some typically low risk move and potentially KILL the other player -- without giving them any method of counterplay?)

A healthy meta where a variety of characters can thrive, where most of the game takes place between the players and there exists an optimal option for both players (but one that is difficult enough to do that human error will create openings) cannot be achieved by "adapting". Explicit balancing through nerfs is required.

 

Not to Bash ZeRo, but can someone link me the "Lets talk Sheik Drama" video? Can someone link me the "Lets talk Diddy kong drama" video? Hell can someone link "Lets talk Brawl Meta Knight drama" video to me?

 

I'm so happy to see this from ZeRo. Bayonetta, in my opinion, is really hurting the meta. If she doesn't get nerfed, it WILL make a huge impact. I'm scared for the future of Smash 4. I'm scared for all the work I and so many others have put into this game. I don't want to see it go down the same path as Brawl with characters like MK and Ice Climbers.

Also, as others have said, adaption is not a solution to Bayonetta. You can't adapt to a character that can kill you from just a single hit. It'll be sad if she drags the meta down with her. I love Smash 4 so much. All I can hope for is that the development team gets the message.

If, however, she doesn't get nerfed, I think banning her is certainly in the realm of possibility. Considering the extent to which she hurts the game, it will probably be the only way. She could end up being worse than anything Brawl had to offer.

Anyway, it's sad to see this happen. Please, PLEASE let her get a nerf as soon as possible!

 

You want to beat Bayonetta? Play a defensive character. There's plenty.
Villager, Palutena, Zelda, Duck Hunt, Mega Man and Olimar all have high-tech spacing and defense game that can guard (and most can reflect) against Bullet Arts, slow her down, or bait her into a massive KO move.

 

Yeah, there's too much evidence and too many obvious design problems with the character. (she's low risk, insane reward, and effectively makes all her opponents options high risk.. )

There's a problem with the character, the empirical evidence shows it -- it's clear from an analysis of how the character functions in the context of the game and with the goal of a healthy, properly balanced risk/reward system in mind.

Zero's lending his credibility to something that's already extremely obvious. People responding with "git gud" or any variant are clowns. Sure, he could be mistaken -- so if you think something he said is actually wrong then provide a reasoned argument with data to back it up.

Don't pretend like there is no problem here, and people just need to fight the character more. That won't fix the fact that witch-time can lead to death from a punished jab, or the fact that many of her pokes/combo starters are completely safe or punishable only by grab while a successful hit means death as long as the bayo player is competent enough to follow your DI.

Adaptation is NOT the answer to character imbalance, especially such an egregious example as we have here (You honestly think it makes sense for a character to be able to bait a jab or some typically low risk move and potentially KILL the other player -- without giving them any method of counterplay?)

A healthy meta where a variety of characters can thrive, where most of the game takes place between the players and there exists an optimal option for both players (but one that is difficult enough to do that human error will create openings) cannot be achieved by "adapting". Explicit balancing through nerfs is required.

Bayonetta has exploitable weaknesses in that:

-She is designed to be easily punishable on whiff. Bait and punish characters can thrive against her.

-Floaty characters CAN DI out of her combos, with consistency, and many can punish her for letting them out.

-Kirby can use her Neutral B MUCH better than she can, because he's so small. Bayonetta would have an obnoxious neutral B if she wasn't tall, but Kirby fixes this problem and can pelt her all day with her own move, and it's not like she can Witch Time the Inhale Move either. Combined with fact that Kirby is a small, floaty target, she doesn't have the easiest time with him, it's actually a very well balanced MU and Kirby is already proving to be potential counter material to Bayonetta. There are other characters but this is probably the most obvious example. I'm not saying Kirby completely destroys Bayonetta, it might be an even MU, but he is an obvious threat to her. Most people didn't even believe Sheik had this much (though that wasn't true either).

-Just as Bayonetta can bait people into Witch Time, her opponent can bait her to perform Witch Time. Not only is it punishable on whiff, but even if Bayonetta fails to trigger Witch Time, she still suffers a permanent reduction to her Witch Time duration the next time she succeeds with it, until she loses a stock. Bayonetta effectively has a 3 strike rule for Witch Time until she loses a stock, it's duration becomes too short to be useful after 2 or 3 attempts, and can even lead to her being punished on a successful Witch Time. There are characters that are particularly good at doing this, like Rosalina & Luma (Rosalina won't be effected by Witch Time if Luma is caught in it, as long as she is out of Bayonetta's immediate range. The reverse is also true with Luma).

-Witch Time doesn't work well on rapid moves. Sonic's Down B is a good example, it's multi-hit, so Bayonetta always eats it, and because Sonic moves so fast, he still moves fast enough to get away even if he doesn't hit Bayonetta. Plus, if the opponent hits Bayonetta while under it's curse, they break it.

-She lacks a good approach game, another reason why Kirby can thrive against her. Her only good approach option, B-air, just doesn't work against a Kirby who can just crouch to avoid it.

These are just a few ways in which you can adapt to Bayonetta.

 

-Just as Bayonetta can bait people into Witch Time, her opponent can bait her to perform Witch Time. Not only is it punishable on whiff, but even if Bayonetta fails to trigger Witch Time, she still suffers a permanent reduction to her Witch Time duration the next time she succeeds with it, until she loses a stock. Bayonetta effectively has a 3 strike rule for Witch Time until she loses a stock, it's duration becomes too short to be useful after 2 or 3 attempts, and can even lead to her being punished on a successful Witch Time. There are characters that are particularly good at doing this, like Rosalina & Luma (Rosalina won't be effected by Witch Time if Luma is caught in it, as long as she is out of Bayonetta's immediate range. The reverse is also true with Luma).

First of all, thanks for making a reasonable counter argument.

Floaty characters can't DI out of her combos at low percents assuming she uses the right version of the combo and Bayo follows their DI. This is a common misconception. SDI possibly, but that's not possible to consistently do on reaction even by the best players.

I'll skip the stuff relating to the Kirby match-up as I'm not familiar with that Matchup. I think her bullet arts are pretty inconsequential. They aren't a major part of what's wrong with the character.

I don't really agree (primarily because I don't think "try to play around a borked risk/reward option" is ever really a good argument against it being borked). If you both can bait, and she gets a lot more reward from success then you do -- then there's something wrong with that option.

Just because a few characters have an answer to it, doesn't it's not a problem (That's not where I want to see smash 4 go). However the fact that WT can be baited doesn't make it less threatening. Yes, you can bait it -- the problem is that the reward you get from baiting it is insanely out of proportion to the reward she gets from landing it -- which is potentially death from blocking a jab. Multi-hit moves (which only some characters have) can clank, but she can just shield to deactivate the hitboxes and then carry on with business as usual. If her reward was proportional to the risk of the action she was countering, I think the move would be fine.

Anyway, trying to counterplay her is a good idea, I obviously advocate for this. However if you have to make twice as many good decisions or reads as she does to get the same results... that's still a problem.

 

I didn't think it would come to this at first. I just thought it would somehow work out but it didn't and now Bayonetta is harming the community and the scene.

 

And people are always like " Just Di out its like soooo easy" when in reality no not really. 9 times out of 10 you won't DI correctly and will die. Im sick of everyone just saying git good and adapt bro like seriously stop. Sometimes its not that easy.

 

You want to beat Bayonetta? Play a defensive character. There's plenty.
Villager, Palutena, Zelda, Duck Hunt, Mega Man and Olimar all have high-tech spacing and defense game that can guard (and most can reflect) against Bullet Arts, slow her down, or bait her into a massive KO move.

I play R.O.B. and have never had any problems against Bayo. Maybe it's because my experience is mainly from For Glory, but I'm pretty sure that's where most of the complaints are coming from.

 

First of all, thanks for making a reasonable counter argument.

Floaty characters can't DI out of her combos at low percents assuming she uses the right version of the combo and Bayo follows their DI. This is a common misconception. SDI possibly, but that's not possible to consistently do on reaction even by the best players.

I'll skip the stuff relating to the Kirby match-up as I'm not familiar with that Matchup. I think her bullet arts are pretty inconsequential. They aren't a major part of what's wrong with the character.

I don't really agree (primarily because I don't think "try to play around a borked risk/reward option" is ever really a good argument against it borked). If you both can bait, and she gets a lot more reward from success then you do -- then there's something wrong with that option.

Just because a few characters have an answer to it, doesn't it's not a problem (That's not where I want to see smash 4 go). However the fact that WT can be baited doesn't make it less threatening. Yes, you can bait it -- the problem is that the reward you get from baiting it is insanely out of proportion to the reward she gets from landing it -- which is potentially death from blocking a jab. Multi-hit moves (which only some characters have) can clank, but she can just shield to deactivate the hitboxes and then carry on with business as usual. If her reward was proportional to the risk of the action she was countering, I think the move would be fine.

Anyway, trying to counte-rplay her is a good idea, I obviously advocate for this. However if you have to make twice as many good decisions or reads as she does to get the same results... that's still a problem.

I'm not out to prove that Bayonetta doesn't have some problems. She has some, not gonna lie.

But people thought the exact same with Sheik and ZeRo defended her to her nerfed grave. Using "CAN'T ARGUE CUZ ZERO SAID IT" is not a good argument here. And don't try to say she didn't have anything borked herself.

Smash will always have characters that have janky stuff or shut down MUs. I would easily say Rosalina has more characters she blatantly shuts down than Bayonetta does (especially looking at someone like Ness). I also don't necessarily agree that Bayonetta is the undisputed best character. She's just a bit easier to get into than other top characters, and she's new, so people are still wrapping their head around her.

IMO, for someone as big as ZeRo, it seems very unbecoming of him to cry foul on a character this soon, especially when he defended and played characters that were obviously borked in some ways himself, and tried to damage control any criticisms people had against them.

I also want to leave this quote here, from another user who doesn't want to get involved, so I won't name them.

"Toxicicity"/damage to the meta is not objective, and neither is the belief that "lame play" is boring.

 

Quantumpen
Uh, people didn't say ban Sheik even though she could camp, rule the neutral with her throw game, and had a 50/50 guaranteed combo at high percents to close the stock.

But let's be constructive:

Zelda is a flawed character, having to rely on high risk/high reward moves, as you described. She has several terrible moves and a couple extremely powerful but risky moves. This is bad design, I think most of the Smash community can agree.

Bayonetta has moves that yes, are hard to punish, but they're also laggy and one even leaves her open if she misses.
One of her combo starters is also predictable and easy to block.
Her Witch Time is much less effective at lower percents or used more than twice.
Her jab isn't all that good. Her recovery is pretty amazing though, that could be nerfed a little, but it's still a little predictable.

I'll just say that her recovery and her Witch Time could be slightly nerfed, but to say she needs explicit balancing is a bit much if you ask me.

I mean, just watching the recent videos of Pink Fresh's Bayonetta, for example, it's not like it was easy, he still had to have skill to pull off those wins. Or are you saying it wasn't the result of many hours spent practicing, as well as skill?

Mario has super fast aerials and smash attacks, a guaranteed combo at low percents on fastfallers, a reflector, a decent projectile, a walljump, at least three effective options for edgeguarding, and a decent recovery. How is that not around the same level as Bayo?

Rosalina can nullify projectiles and act out of a jab with any move. May I say that again? Yeah, she can get free smashes in. Just like Bayo. But hers aren't limited like Bayo's.

I just don't understand how someone could suggest banning a character who's clearly not broken in any way.

tl;dr Bayo could take a couple slight nerfs, but she's definitely not broken. It's just silly to think that.

 

No, the complaints are not coming from for glory. For glory bayo's don't know why the character is good, the people concerned are people who actually understand what the character is capable of and believe those options are so powerful they could negatively affect the meta-game, and there are very good reasons for these believes grounded in well established principles of competitive game design, like balanced risk/reward.

Anyway, I think that Sheik was pretty ridiculous pre-patch too. Her nerfs were completely justified, but even she wasn't as powerful as Bayonetta. I think zero did a reasonable job of explaining the difference in his video. It really comes down to how borked Bayo's risk/reward ratio is on most of her moves, and the fact that she can explicitly shut you down by turning all your moves into insane risk moves. Sometimes you might bait witch-time... but if you do and she's not at high percents, what do you get? jack. What does she get?

The answer to that question is the problem with the character. Lame play doesn't counter bayonetta. Lame play gives you something of a chance, but she only has to outplay you a few times to take the game even if you play ultra lame. She's not the only character with powerful tools, but hers are the most powerful and the way they impact the meta is unique. Not quite as bad as pre-patch diddy, but pretty bad.

 

So many people in denial...

 

So many people in denial...

And so many people who just jump on the Bayo hating bandwagon. Stop acting like she's Brawl Meta Knight when's she's clearly not and maybe things would go better.

You act like she automatically kills you if she lands one witch time. If you cared to watch videos of tournament matches, you'd see several times that that isn't true and is dependent on the context. You know, like Mac's KO punch. Oh yeah, he can guarantee that out of a setup, too. Only difference is Mac has a glaring weakness that makes him almost unviable. (Although some have showed off some good Mac play, so there's hope in some matchups).

Bait and punish, as well as defensive characters, have decent matchups with her. Unless you're saying that the fact that there are a bunch of characters that can beat her means she's broken? I can't say I understand that.

 

Right, so she only sometimes gets to punish your jabs with KO's... that's so much better.

Sure, if bayo died at 30% it'd be ok. You can always counter balance unusual strengths. Bayo however has a lot of unusual strength without any particular glaring weaknesses.

 

Right, so she only sometimes gets to punish your jabs with KO's... that's so much better.

Sure, if bayo died at 30% it'd be ok. You can always counter balance unusual strengths. Bayo however has a lot of unusual strength without any particular glaring weaknesses.

Question, how good is her grab?

 

i think the way zero addressed bayonetta was on point, minus the part where she "carries players". even though i lowkey agree with him on that, it makes the video seem whiney, hence why a lot of people seem to be countering with "just adapt and get gud lol" in the comments.

also, the sheik thing was overly apologetic. even if sheik took some learning, you were rewarded with a character with no bad matchups that barely had to commit to anything. once you knew sheik, the hardest part about her was probably just guessing the right 50/50 kill option.

 

You act like she automatically kills you if she lands one witch time. If you cared to watch videos of tournament matches, you'd see several times that that isn't true and is dependent on the context.

This right here. It's important to note that if Bayonetta lands a Witch Time, it's still possible for the victim to perform a quick action while they're suffering from slow down, including putting up their shield or throwing out a quick counter, although the availability of said moves depends on how much end lag the victims' last attack had.

Heck, I've seen a Bayonetta perform Witch Time on another Bayonetta WHILE she was stuck in Witch Time.

 

She's still only as good as Rosalina and Luma, honestly. Cloud and Mario can also beat her. As can Sonic.

She's beaten by some characters that aren't high tier. Obviously this is a very good thing.

So what if she beats some high tier characters. That is absolutely not a problem in itself at all, and is not hurting the meta in any way. The way she does it is arguably a problem, but that's different.

In fact, middle and lower tier characters being brought out for certain matchups is a great thing for the meta. It would be best to have everyone balanced, for sure, but it's not a bad thing at all to give a character a reason to be in the competitive scene.

I mean, we all agree Smash 4 is pretty balanced overall, don't we? Just look at Melee's balancing, and compare. I guess if you don't believe that, then I can see how you disagree with me, but guess what, I do believe that, because it's true.

Hopefully in future patches, characters will be balanced even further. But as it is, it's much better than Brawl or Melee's balancing, with rows of characters who are completely unviable.

 

This particular drama needs to be ceased.

 

[deleting]

 

 

Adaptation is cool.

We Smash players should try it some time.

Cause clearly the bayo player can't do that too am I right

 

 

 

It'll eventually happen. This piece of news is pretty new, so it's bound to stop in at least 2 or 3 days.

If not, then

 

This will probably just be until people understand how to counter everything she's got. Similar to cloud when he was new.