True Skills being held back?

[slikvik]

Praxis, most people won't understand that post but it was a **** good one

 

[BSP]

Well my opinion, I use mario, luigi, sonic, and ness the most. I don't really think they hold me back(dont think im that great anyway) but if they did, i dont think i would use anyone else. I try to get as good as possible with my characters. Maybe if I get into a higher level of play i would use others, but not at my level.

 

[18.15.2.15x12.9.14.11]

You're ignoring a pretty important factor in how well you do against your friend, and that's YOUR FRIEND. He knows the Link matchup, and he knows how you play Link. He doesn't know how you're going to be playing MK/Snake (at first at least), and I'm willing to bet he doesn't know the matchup nearly as well as he knows the Link matchup. I'm assuming that he's still playing the same character(s) against you right? That gives you a pretty big advantage.

I'm not arguing that MK/Snake aren't easier to win with, of course they are, that's why they're top tier, but such a huge disparity in your performance against one person with Link vs with MK has a lot more factors than just "I do better cause I'm playing MK"

True, but even matchup familiarity doesn't distort something from ~50:50 to get 3 stocked. x3

And "I do better cause I'm playing MK" isn't a factor, it's the result. :b

Unlike Melee, where a "Yomi moment" results in a series of hits, a Yomi moment in Brawl results in only one

Says the peach main. XD

 

[Riickable]

I play it cause Peach is my favorite nintendo character.

I love you. xD

I wish there were more people like you in the Brawl Community.

I full out respect people who use a character cause they like him.

99% of MKs and Snakes have never played their respective games.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

well Dark Pch remember that people r naturally better with some chars than others. So peach can be the char u have most potential with naturally. If that is the case...your peach will still do better than a high tier char.

 

[Praxis]

Praxis, most people won't understand that post but it was a **** good one

Haha, ty, I suspect it'll go way over most people's heads sadly.

 

[Green_Ace]

if you look at these PRs (top 10) I dragged up recently and look at character distribution you get this for how many people used them in some way out of 120 people and 169 character representations you can get a vague idea of how difficult it is to be successful with that character:

Very Easy

MK 33
Snake 23

Relatively Easy

Marth 15
Wario 10
Diddy 10
Olimar 7
DDD 7

Moderate

GW 6
ICs 6
Falco 5
Toon Link 5
Kirby 5
DK 5

Moderate Hard

Pikachu 4
ZSS 4
ROB 4

Hard

Sonic 3
Luigi 3
Fox 3
Wolf 2
PT 2
Lucario 2
Ness 1
Peach 1

Representation only with Higher Backups

Jigglypuff 1
Mario 1
Ike 1

No Current Representation
Pit 0
Zelda 0
Bowser 0
Sheik 0
Yoshi 0
Link 0
Captain Falcon 0
Ganondorf 0
Lucas 0
Samus 0

120 people 169 different character representations


Peach is just naturally a harder character to do well with. (of course their are different variables there aren't accounted for in the data like how many people use each char/regional differences/etc... , but it still gets the point across).








As of August 16th/2009


Florida

1 Seibrik mk/ddd
2 C018 ddd
3 NickRiddle ZSS
4 Hrnut Snake/MK/Marth
5 Afrothunder Snake/wario
6 Chaz Marth/MK
7 Esam Pikachu
8 Hungrybox DDD/Jigglypuff
9 GDX Diddy/GW
10 Mero MK

Ohio

1Overswarm MK/ROB
2 Quivo Toon Link
3 AlphaZealot Diddy
4 Shugo Sonic
5 YBM Kirby
6 Nope Snake
7 Infern Angelis Snake
8 Pops Wario
9 Capem MK
10 Champ Falco

North Carolina

1 Sushi Man MK
2 Dr Peepee Marth
3 Stingers ROB/MK
4 NC-Echo Olimar
5 Ragnarok DK
6 Lord Karn Snake/MK/ROB/Wario
7 Shady Penguin Snake
8 Duo Fox
9 Mitsurugi MK/Wolf
10 Keith Snake

New York

1 Anti Snake
2 Shadow MK
3 Snakee ZSS
4 Ninjalink ?
5 Dabuz Olimar
6 Jash Toon LInk
7 MikeG GW
8 Mintyflesh Marth
9 Blackwaltz Olimar
10 Wes Sonic


MD/VA

1 Meep ICs
2 Omni MK
3 ChuDat Kirby
4 Neo Marth
5 Candy Snake
6 PyronicStar Olimar
7 Boss Luigi
8 Chillindude Snake
9 Forte MK
10 G-Reg Snake

Socal

1 Tyrant MK
2 Fiction Wario
3 MikeHaze Marth
4 DSF MK
5 Dehf Falco
6 Havok MK
7 Leepuff GW
8 TKD MK
9 BarDull Marth
10 RichBrown Olimar

Alabama

1 TheReflexWonder PT/Wario
2 Will MK/DK
3 George Kirby
4 DanGR Olimar/?
5 Elev8 DDD/Diddy
6 Moogle Fox/GW
7 Nice1 Snake
8 Munkus Beaver MK
9 TheONEjanitor Snake
10 Cam Pikachu

Texas

1. Dojo (Metaknight)
2. Razer (Snake)
3. Gnes (Diddy)
4. Infinity (Kirby/MK)
5. Roy_R (Marth)
6. DMG (Wario/Diddy)
7. Zac (Game&Watch)
8. Light (Metaknight)
9. Hylian (Game&Watch/Ice Climbers)
10. PhantomX (Wario)

Norcal

1 Zex Marth
2 Erow Snake/ZSS
3 Sean MK
4 Meep Snake/MK/Wario
5 F0cus Snake
6 REDJ Marth/Diddy
7 The Nanerz Diddy
8 Choice Wolf/Pikachu
9 C@tnip MK
10 Sal Snake

New Jersey

1. ADHD (Diddy Kong)
2. Atomsk (Dedede, Ice Climbers, Meta Knight, Luigi)
3. ksizzle (Meta Knight, Ice Climbers, Lucario)
4. dmbrandon (Meta Knight)
5. Inui (Meta Knight, Snake, Ike)
6. Zucco (Lucario)
7. Keitaro (Falco, Snake, Pokemon Trainer)
8. Kai (Sonic, Diddy Kong)
9. Eazy (Marth, Meta Knight)
10. Izumi (Meta Knight, Toon Link)

Washington

1 Chip Toon Link
2 Jem MK
3 Weruop Olimar
4 Praxis Peach
5 Bladewise Marth
6 Uchiha Marth/Fox
7 Zeionut Snake
8 Jamnt0ise ROB/Wario/Snake/MK/DDD
9 Felix Diddy/ICs
10 Nerd Falco/Marth

Vegas

1 SK92 Falco/DK
2 FOW Ness/ICs
3 LeoFTW DDD/Wario
4 Z Pikachu
5 Xero Olimar
6 Mi. Snake
7 Ninewind DK/Marth
8 Kokaloo ZSS/Luigi
9 Zro Kirby/DK
10 JWN3d Mario/Toon Link

You forgot the New England Power Ranking: http://allisbrawl.com/group.aspx?id=6677

Put a 1 next to that Yoshi.

 

[Wiscus]

No.

Appraisal skill trumps Yomi; ESPECIALLY in Brawl.

Even David Sirlin concluded on Yomi as the #2 most important quality. And Brawl is a game of appraisal over Yomi. Unlike Melee, where a "Yomi moment" results in a series of hits, a Yomi moment in Brawl results in only one, and often players simply have too many options to force a true rock-paper-scissors situation because of the depth of options in the game.

Rather, Brawl plays almost like an RTS; option tracking, option reduction, option picking, making constant safe choices until you can reduce your opponent's options down to none and hit them or few and force a rock-paper-scissors Yomi game between their remaining few; these things are more important than the Yomi, though Yomi does come in to play.

The character in Brawl that can truly play off of setups and thus benefits the most from Yomi guessing games is Metaknight. Perhaps that is why he is so popular among Melee players (Mew2King often says he's the only character he has fun with). Players like Fiction and Ally, meanwhile, favors appraisal and option control over Yomi.

I was just lurking in here and wasn't going to say anything but...this is the best post in this thread. Read it, people! quoting the whole thing makes it so that there is twice the chance of people reading it.

 

[.Marik]

The answer should be obvious.

You went Peach. You placed 13th.

What is there to discuss? You win, and enjoy playing her.

Stick with Peach.

I play Yoshi, although he's a pretty mediocre character. Do I enter Tournaments knowing I'm not going to win? Yes, I do.

But do I enter Tournaments knowing my Yoshi is insane regardless, and that I feel proud representing a character that's deemed "lol bottom tier", and doing well with him?

Of course. You made up your mind, there's not much to it.

Again, the answer should be blatantly obvious you should continue using Peach. Like you, I'm a fanboy of the character I main.

<3

 

[Dabuz]

scrub question: what is YOMI?

 

[slikvik]

scrub question: what is YOMI?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeM0rH_4ung

 

[Praxis]

Yomi is basically the ability to read/predict your opponent's next move, primarily in rock-paper-scissors style guessing games.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/7-yomi-spies-of-the-mind.html is where the term was coined in relation to fighting games, and it is explained well.

 

[Weruop]

WA PR has been updated btw

 

[Tien2500]

Frankly based on the OP I have to wonder why you would even play Brawl Dk Peach. You mention several times in the OP that you don't like Brawl and only play it for Peach. If you seriously don't like the game I would think you could find some sort of pursuit you would find more rewarding. If you really love Peach that much that proving her as a viable character in a fighting game gives you great joy then more power to you I guess but I can't really understand being that into a character that I would throw hours and hours into a game I didn't like. (And I'm assuming based on your tournament ranking and overall reputation that you must spend a decent amount of time playing Smash).

But assuming you have your reasons for not giving up Smash altogether... I would say you're holding yourself back by not having a secondary. If you want to show what your character could do but you also have to be realistic about what she can't. And while you said money isn't your prime concern I'm sure having a few extra dollars for your efforts would be nice anyway.

 

[slikvik]

Yomi is basically the ability to read/predict your opponent's next move, primarily in rock-paper-scissors style guessing games.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/7-yomi-spies-of-the-mind.html is where the term was coined in relation to fighting games, and it is explained well.

I explained all that in my previous post.

 

[CRASHiC]

The character in Brawl that can truly play off of setups and thus benefits the most from Yomi guessing games is Metaknight. Perhaps that is why he is so popular among Melee players (Mew2King often says he's the only character he has fun with). Players like Fiction and Ally, meanwhile, favors appraisal and option control over Yomi.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Other characters are quickly showing that they too have the ability to pay off a successful Yomi set up.
At SNES we saw Diddy Kong landing huge Naner combos, earning him 54% combos at certain times.
ZSS can land either a 30+ downsmash combo off of one mistake by her opponent at any percentage, which can at times lead to an early death, as well as her dash attack lock, which can lead to any one of her tilts.
Against 2/3ds of the cast, D3 can enter a chaingrab, that in some cases can be followed up with a dtilt at the edge.
Losing to ICs on Yomi means the loss of a stock.
Let's not even go into the huge punishment opitions at Pikachu's disposal.
Even the mid tier Lucario can effectively punish a player with a true combo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdIR9pEkAoo

In my opinion, Pikachu benefits the most from Yomi, since not only does he have some pretty terifing combos, but he also has one of the longest lasting standing chaingrabs in the game with guaranteed follow ups.

 

[Praxis]

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Other characters are quickly showing that they too have the ability to pay off a successful Yomi set up.
At SNES we saw Diddy Kong landing huge Naner combos, earning him 54% combos at certain times.
ZSS can land either a 30+ downsmash combo off of one mistake by her opponent at any percentage, which can at times lead to an early death, as well as her dash attack lock, which can lead to any one of her tilts.
Against 2/3ds of the cast, D3 can enter a chaingrab, that in some cases can be followed up with a dtilt at the edge.
Losing to ICs on Yomi means the loss of a stock.
Let's not even go into the huge punishment opitions at Pikachu's disposal.

I'm not saying Yomi isn't rewarded, I'm saying that Yomi isn't the primary skillset of Brawl. There are exceptions; MK heavily rewards Yomi, and thus can be played either way (in guessing game situations, he always profits most off of winning, unless his opponent is an Ice Climber).

Yomi is a very important skill. But opponents can take safe options to prevent Yomi moments from occurring. Yes, Dedede can run up to his opponent, initiating a "should I spotdodge or attack his grab" guessing game that the player who reads his opponent best in will win, and a guessing game Dedede profits heavily off of winning. But in high level play his opponent can space to prevent such a game from ever occurring. One of the keys to beating Metaknight, at least with Peach, is adjusting your spacing to remove guessing games any time one might occur, because Metaknight profits far more off of winning them. This is APPRAISAL, not Yomi.

That's why I say Appraisal is the key skill set rewarded by Brawl, and Yomi the second most rewarded.

Even the mid tier Lucario can effectively punish a player with a true combo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdIR9pEkAoo

This isn't remotely a true combo. You can SDI out of the jabs, you can grab-break Lucario's force palm at under 30% with a quick button mash (a very obscure fact that very few people know, which is why some people might get away with this), you could've also SDI'd the jab down and spotdodged the force palm, the jab cancel to rejab to forcepalm isn't guaranteed at all and Lucario's dair can be SDI'd out of.

In my opinion, Pikachu benefits the most from Yomi, since not only does he have some pretty terifing combos, but he also has one of the longest lasting standing chaingrabs in the game with guaranteed follow ups.

Have you ever seen a player fight a Pikachu with a character like Falco that gets 0-death'd and simply NOT GET GRABBED? It's not that the Falco is constantly winning every guessing game and reading game, it's that the Falco is managing his options to never let the Pikachu put him in a situation where it comes down to a Yomi/reading guessing game. Especially since the Pikachu isn't utilizing his own option-reduction, since he doesn't want to damage the Falco with thunderjolts too much or else he loses his ability to CG.

Same reason Falcos and Ice Climbers have a really hard time grabbing MK.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This isn't remotely a true combo. You can SDI out of the jabs, you can grab-break Lucario's force palm at under 30% with a quick button mash (a very obscure fact that very few people know, which is why some people might get away with this), you could've also SDI'd the jab down and spotdodged the force palm, the jab cancel to rejab to forcepalm isn't guaranteed at all and Lucario's dair can be SDI'd out of.

I'm still surprised most players don't know about this. It was discovered around June of 2008 and still I see players get away with it all of the time.

As for that "combo" Lucario can follow up with other methods to mix it up if he predicts or notices your SDIing the jabs or DI.

But you know, yomi and all that.

 

[CRASHiC]

I wasn't doubting what you said about aprasiel, that made perfect sense to me, I misinterpreted the part about Metaknight gaining the most off of Yomi, since he was used in the same sentence as Melee, I was under the assumption that you meant that because of things like his upair combos that he was the one who gained the most profit.