True Down Throw to Up Air Setups

[Slice~]

So, some of us already talked about this, but never really looked into it:
Apparently, the Down Throw Up Air Setup is a real thing.
The timing is strict as f**k, but according to the game it's a true combo.

I roughly (10% steps, no DI) tested some chars without rage (in training mode on Omega BF).
The setup does work if the opponent does not DI or DI's behind you.

If he DI's into the direction Yoshi is facing, try following and bait out an airdodge etc. (ergo; read and try to catch him) (thanks to Silver Smasher for helping me out).
You should NOT PUMMEL your opponent if you are going for this setup, as it gives him time to react accordingly.
Try to mix it up and use it mostly for the kill setup, to surprise your enemy.

Here are the results:

Does not work
Does not work
Does not work
Does not work
Does not work
True from 0% to 95% (kills at 91%) (watch out for Luma -> always doublejump to tank hits)
Does not work
Does not work
Does not work
True from 0% to 240% (kills at 109%) (needs delayed doublejump at ~220% and above)
True from 0% to 105% (kills at 87%)
True from 0% to 350% (kills at 106%) (needs delayed doublejump at ~260% and above)
True from 0% to 230% (kills at 113%)
True from 0% to 180% (kills at 110%)
True from 0% to 180% (kills at 96%)


So, in a real game with approximately equal %, we might be able to kill a Sheik @ 80% with rage.
This is quite huge, as we always had to kill with a non grab move (which are quite slow and hard to set up).

It also works with UpThrow to UpAir in some scenarios, but it's less reliable, so we should just ignore it.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Oh... So it was without DI?

I'll at least mention a few things:

First being that Down Throw has low knockback scaling but not low base knockback which means rage might have a big part in when things work and don't work.

Secondly is how the training counter works. It seems to count when the opponent is able to airdodge and might be inaccurate by a % or so.

 

[Delta-cod]

For those looking to test DI and stuff, if you run in training mode at 1/4 speed, the game only runs if you hold a trigger (controller dependent). You can use this to set up situations and DI all by yourself.

Naturally there's the possibility it might not be 100% accurate, but it's a start.

 

[YoHeKing]

Might make fox a good mu for us though if it worked with di

 

[Masonomace]

For Shulk, was it just Vanilla that's true? I imagine Jump art makes Shulk much more easily combo'd by Yoshi's D-throw > U-air due to that the Jump art increases Shulk's gravity / fall speed & takes 1.22x more damage. So basically, the & Buster arts take extra damage from the D-throw which slightly affects the knockback formula, the Shield & Smash arts alter the knockback Shulk receives by a heavy or slight amount, & Speed art only increases Shulk's air speed for when he DIs the throw holding away or toward Yoshi on the joystick. You won't get D-Throw > U-air on Shield Shulk at early percentages because he barely goes nowhere. I'd stick with using F-tilt angled up or straightforward, U-tilt, Jab1 into Jab2, or even rising N-air? At later percents though, D-throw into U-air may work, but you have to keep in mind that the Shield art reduces knockback taken which leads to taking reduced hitstun, so Shulk can act sooner than anyone could. Smash Shulk receives more knockback thus he takes more hitstun, so you have a slightly better chance to string D-throw into U-air but at the same time you don't, since he does travel more distance. I think D-throw > U-air could work at early percents but not sure about anything higher.

With that said, I'm down to assist with labbing this. I'd rather work together with someone than do it myself in 1/4x (Hold L) in Training mode. Plus Rage is accounted for in the VS Mode format with a handicap we can set to test it precisely in 10% increments.

 

[Slice~]

I honestly won't go into all the monado arts, since I don't know too much about Shulk and will be busy enough to test all the other characters.
But if you want to help and bring some data, I'll add them to the OP asap.

 

[Skitrel]

So. What's the common rule between the characters this works on and does not?

What do Diddy and Link have in common?

What do Sheik and Shulk have in common?

I choose these 2 comparisons in particular because the results for them are almost identical - working from 0% to 180% and working from 0% to 230/240%

Either there is a combination of weight and fall speed that makes these characters similar, or there is something else in the game to consider in analysing matchups. My big thought here is that different characters are stunned by different moves for varying lengths of time.

Is the stun time identical for Bowser as it is for Sheik?

Is it just the distance the characters are knocked back by the down throw that makes it true or not?

I want to wholly 100% understand this interaction. Understanding it with complete certainty is necessary to knowing with certainty when it will and will not work if both players have varying amounts of damage and rage. When it comes down to clutch time I want to 100% know for certain that my opponent isn't going to airdodge>fastfall>uair me when I go for this.

 

[Lukingordex]

I tried it against the best sheik player in my region several times and it never worked, he just escaped by going away from Yoshi with DI every time.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

Down throw gets DI'd so hard. They move far enough away that you just can't touch them with U-air. You might be able to F-air, but it's easily air-dodged.

I've had more success with U-throw. Even though U-throw does little damage, it sends them straight up and provides opportunities to punish mistakes more easily.

My strategy with U-throw is to toss them up and bait their response. If the air-dodge, they'll probably land on the ground where they can be attacked or regrabbed. Once they realized I'm trying to chain-grab them, I'll start mixing in different techniques. I usually don't even go for the U-air until KO percents.

I don't know how stale throws work though. I'm not sure if there is less hitstun than a fresh one, but I might be having good success with U-throw because my playstyle gets it really stale.

 

[Slice~]

Just play tested it (thanks to Silver Smasher for helping me out):
The opponent can DI into the direction Yoshi is facing to get out "safely".
DI'ing behind Yoshi or not DI'ing at all sets you up for a guaranteed UpAir (see data above).
If the Opponent DI's away from you, you can follow pretty well and bait out an airdodge which can be punished.

So: I'll keep collecting the data as it seems to work if the opponent DI's poorly.
It might come in handy once in a while, since it still is a really good kill setup if executed properly.

Just don't pummel the opponent if you are going for a kill, as you just give them more time to react.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Usually DI'ing away from Yoshi after dthrow they can get away from Uair yeah, but usually we can bait out an airdodge and hope for fair or whatever.
Otherwise any other DI allows us to Uair or they might possibly be able to airdodge if they DI up to go higher up.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Maybe we can mix in grab releases to catch them with bad DI when they attempt to mash out? Also, before I forget, check to see if airdodge is their only option. A 50/50 is at least something.

 

[Slice~]

I believe that if you directly follow with a FAir it would hit a doublejump.
The AD window is still very short, even if they DI correctly.
And since we are slightly higher, FAir should easily hit a doublejumping opponent.

 

[YoHeKing]

I brought this up before but why would you want to DI away from yoshi at 120%+ near a ledge or something. You could mix up throws and possible get a KO or even put them in a bad situation.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

With the absolute worst DI at the very edge of the stage Fthrow starts killing Jigglypuff at 149%

edit: Starts killing Bowser at 196%

 

[YoHeKing]

Throwing bowser off even at 100% with bad DI kinda sets up easy edge guards. I guess it really depends on the character tbh.

 

[ReturningFall]

So it sounds like where this is going is:
1) Dthrow at about up to about 100-150%.
2a) they DI towards or neutral. React and get a Uair. Done. Kills at high percents or with a low ceiling.
2b) they DI away. Follow. It's now a guessing game.
3a) Immediate Fair beats jump, do nothing and very close range aerials. Puts us at a close-range frame disadvantage against AD.
3b) Delay Fair slightly. Loses to very fast aerials but can hit a baited air dodge.
3c) Do not immediately follow up. Turns into us chasing them with both in the air. Neutral/disadvantage/advantage is now character dependent. They have been pushed in the direction we face, but not enough to matter and not enough to make Fthrow obsolete.

Two questions:
1) is this an accurate description of what we're thinking?
2) might there be something more optimal against the DI away-AD? Say, empty hop->JC Usmash?

I find this interesting. I'd given up on Dthrow doing much more than getting my opponent above me since the WiiU patch came out (1.0.4) and people started to AD or DI out.

 

[Slice~]

Emtpy Hop UpSmash after Down Smash is a really good option, yeah.
works surprisingly often.

 

[Scootch]

What I try to do is Double Jab - Grab - Dthrow - Uair. I feel like such a beast when I pull it

 

[Eureka]

Are we sure forward air catches double jumps? Since the usual response to getting down thrown by Yoshi is to DI away and double jump, and considering how easy that is to do I'm not sure if fair with it's 16 frame startup can actually catch their double jump. Also with that much time they could probably just jump + air dodge out of any potential follow ups Yoshi has. I'm thinking the best potential outcome would be to tag them with an egg and try to juggle them. Now if there was a way to follow up after the egg then we'd be in business, unfortunately they'd likely be too far up to connect an up air in time or the egg would hit to early and Yoshi wouldn't be able to follow up in time.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

This is freaking huge. Now that I'm actually using Yoshi, this is just.......yeah, I have to practice and perfect this thang.

 

[HawkBlade]

From my experience, a good tactic to use is to down throw your opponent then jump to the height that you usually would be at when you do down throw -> up air. Except, don't actually do the up-air and, if your opponent air dodges, you can fall down with your opponent and get a free up air. It can be hard, and mixing it up by lobbing some eggs may be helpful

 

[Masonomace]

So after some labbing in Training Mode, I learned that this can work on Mega Man & Jump Shulk. Jump doesn't affect weight like I mentioned in my first post here, but Monado Jump increases Shulk's fall speed by a lot, making him a fast faller around Mega Man's fall speed as well. And since Mega Man & Shulk have the same weight value of 102, I thought I'd test them both.

I also realized that this is a very very tight window to combo Yoshi's Dthrow > Uair. Even though the combo counter doesn't count it, it is a true combo given that you input it correctly & they try doublejumping away. To combo Vanilla Shulk, Yoshi has to Full Hop at early percents & not input Uair too early or else you cancel the jumpsquat animation & get Usmash instead. If you Short Hop Uair, you won't reach Shulk but you can reach Mega Man when they're spamming jump to doublejump away. So have some numbers:

Disclaimer: No DI

Down Throw > SH Uair
: True from 0% to around 44%
(Jump art): True from 0% to around 75%


Down Throw > FH Uair
: True from 0% to around 80%
(Jump art): True from 0% to around 225% (kills at 114%) (Deadly Blow effect spark shows at 115%)


Down Throw > SH or FH (FH extends the combo perentages) > DJ Uair
: True from 0% to around 340% (kills at 117%) (Deadly Blow effect spark shows at 119%)
(Jump art): True from 0% to around 370%


EDIT: BONUS combo = Down Throw > Usmash
Disclaimer: No DI
(Hyper Jump art): True from 0% to 29% (at 30%, you'll get a glancing blow which means you almost hit Shulk)

BTW, Yoshi Down Throw > Uncharged Usmash looks like this with the Hyper Jump damage taken multiplier, which is 1.464x:

4% x (1.464) + 14% x (1.464) = 26.352%

Bad news is that it's not a true combo when HJump Shulk holds away & doublejumps, but it is true if they DI in. Even if you tried to dash & get a hyphen Usmash, you can't reach, This depends on how you feel with custom specials, but at least you can get a likely true combo out of Down Throw dealing over 25% so eh. HJump Shulk has 102 weight, but his fall speed is even higher than Fox which is why this is true in the first place.


Locke 06 if you wanna double check these numbers, I'm very open to that since I'm not a Mega Man player. I did account for Rush Coil at 0% but it doesn't help against a frame perfect Down Throw to Up air combo unless it happened at later percents or of course Rage effect tampering with the combo.

EDIT: Yoshi Down Throw > Up smash almost works on King Dedede at 0%.

 

[Locke 06]

So after some labbing in Training Mode, I learned that this can work on Mega Man & Jump Shulk. Jump doesn't affect weight like I mentioned in my first post here, but Monado Jump increases Shulk's fall speed by a lot, making him a fast faller around Mega Man's fall speed as well. And since Mega Man & Shulk have the same weight value of 102, I thought I'd test them both.

I also realized that this is a very very tight window to combo Yoshi's Dthrow > Uair. Even though the combo counter doesn't count it, it is a true combo given that you input it correctly & they try doublejumping away. To combo Vanilla Shulk, Yoshi has to Full Hop at early percents & not input Uair too early or else you cancel the jumpsquat animation & get Usmash instead. If you Short Hop Uair, you won't reach Shulk but you can reach Mega Man when they're spamming jump to doublejump away. So have some numbers:

Disclaimer: No DI

Down Throw > SH Uair
: True from 0% to around 44%
(Jump art): True from 0% to around 75%


Down Throw > FH Uair
: True from 0% to around 80%
(Jump art): True from 0% to around 225% (kills at 114%) (Deadly Blow effect spark shows at 115%)


Down Throw > SH or FH (FH extends the combo perentages) > DJ Uair
: True from 0% to around 340% (kills at 117%) (Deadly Blow effect spark shows at 119%)
(Jump art): True from 0% to around 370%


EDIT: BONUS combo = Down Throw > Usmash
Disclaimer: No DI
(Hyper Jump art): True from 0% to 29% (at 30%, you'll get a glancing blow which means you almost hit Shulk)

BTW, Yoshi Down Throw > Uncharged Usmash looks like this with the Hyper Jump damage taken multiplier, which is 1.464x:

4% x (1.464) + 14% x (1.464) = 26.352%

Bad news is that it's not a true combo when HJump Shulk holds away & doublejumps, but it is true if they DI in. Even if you tried to dash & get a hyphen Usmash, you can't reach, This depends on how you feel with custom specials, but at least you can get a likely true combo out of Down Throw dealing over 25% so eh. HJump Shulk has 102 weight, but his fall speed is even higher than Fox which is why this is true in the first place.


Locke 06 if you wanna double check these numbers, I'm very open to that since I'm not a Mega Man player. I did account for Rush Coil at 0% but it doesn't help against a frame perfect Down Throw to Up air combo unless it happened at later percents or of course Rage effect tampering with the combo.

EDIT: Yoshi Down Throw > Up smash almost works on King Dedede at 0%.

Hi,

1. Using tilt stick allows you to buffer up airs from jump squat.
2. At higher %'s you can airdodge before you can attack before you can jump (in that order). This makes double jump airdodge, which is a good option, a rather difficult one to execute since you have to recognize that you jump before you airdodge, otherwise you will just airdodge.
3. Rush coil has intangibility starting like.. f8, which is worse than jump>airdodge at low %'s (but you don't risk losing your double jump).
4. I always learned to DI Yoshi's throws away and then react to what he does since nothing was guaranteed. I don't understand how dthrow>up air is "true" from such a large % range. Did something change?

 

[Masonomace]

4. I always learned to DI Yoshi's throws away and then react to what he does since nothing was guaranteed. I don't understand how dthrow>up air is "true" from such a large % range. Did something change?

Disclaimer: No DI

The "No DI" is very important to note. All I did was do this in 1/4x speed Holding L & mashed jump button for the escape. If you hold away during the Down throw, Yoshi won't be able to string into Up air. If you hold towards Yoshi however, you make it easier for Yoshi to combo you.

The three other points were educational.

 

[Eureka]

4. I always learned to DI Yoshi's throws away and then react to what he does since nothing was guaranteed. I don't understand how dthrow>up air is "true" from such a large % range. Did something change?

Down throw to up air is a true combo only if the opponent does not DI away. To clarify, these percent ranges weren't obtained using the combo counter in training mode right Slice~ ? Because that thing is horribly flawed.

 

[Masonomace]

Right. The combo counter not counting whether it was a combo or not doesn't matter, but yeah It's not perfect just that it's okay. I didn't rely on the combo counter for my percentages since I literally did everything in 1/4x (Hold L) speed so that I knew for myself if it combo'd before the victim could doublejump away.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Airdodge can come out quicker than jump btw, so be sure to test both whenever you test something.

 

[Masonomace]

Airdodge can come out quicker than jump btw, so be sure to test both whenever you test something.

Yeah I remember performing airdodge first before doublejumping, but when Mega Man & Jump Shulk get Down thrown, they can airdodge before Up air always, so I focused on doublejumps instead.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Wait. Even without DI, it doesn't work at any % for airdodges??

 

[Masonomace]

Wait. Even without DI, it doesn't work at any % for airdodges??

Not for Mega Man & Jump Shulk when I tested them. They'd avoid Up air with airdodge but cannot avoid Up air when trying to doublejump.

 

[Eureka]

So we haven't even tested if this can be air dodged through? I thought that was already taken into consideration. It's hardly a "true" setup if it is the case.

So I hope I'm wrong on this. But from what I'm gathering we don't actually have a true kill confirm from down throw. Apparently the best we can get instead is a 50/50 only if they DI wrong and Yoshi doesn't have any rage at all (lol down throw base knockback). Still better then nothing, but that's still pretty lame.

The timing is strict as f**k, but according to the game it's a true combo.

Can you please explain what you meant by this? I'm not trying to be rude, but if you were referring to the combo counter then this whole thing is kinda moot.

 

[Slice~]

Yep, only if they DI wrong.
Tested it with combo counter and with real inputs (airdodge).

It's just a possibility.
Yoshi's grab/throw game still sucks.

 

[CalebGamer14]

Thanks bro this is great.

 

[Genuine_Angus_B33F]

I wanna see this brought back, because I think it has more potential than we've really given it.

Yes, it's super easy to DI. You don't even have to think about it, it's almost a reflex, and if you do you can air dodge out.

But what about using down B to cover that for fast fallers? Or using back throw so if they DI in you can space an Fsmash to I think if Yoshis grab game is at least somewhat developed it could benefit his offense and give him some incentive to grab for KOs instead of the inconsistent egg lay

 

[White_Pointer]

But what about using down B to cover that for fast fallers? Or using back throw so if they DI in you can space an Fsmash to I think if Yoshis grab game is at least somewhat developed it could benefit his offense and give him some incentive to grab for KOs instead of the inconsistent egg lay

Still doesn't really work. If they DI away you won't connect anything. Even if they don't DI an air dodge often gets the job done.

Down throw doesn't true combo into anything, at any percent. If you can DI out, it's not a true combo.

The only way I get any kind of follow up off down throw is by forward or back throwing them the entire game then suddenly throwing a down throw into the mix. Sometimes they don't DI properly cause of the conditioning, giving me an opportunity to land an up air or something. But even that's kind of rare.

 

[DJlive]

Maybe we can work this out by preconditioning using bthrow. That normally sets the opponent for possible fair spike set ups for easy kills anyway. What this does is make the opponent want to di behind Yoshi more so once we're going for dthrow uair for the kill, they've already been used to DIing behind that it could become guaranteed.