zeionut
Smash Apprentice
i know people say sheik has advantage over marth, some people say fox has advantage over sheik, but i need to know how to kill those two characters...
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trouble vs marth and fox >.>
- Thread starter zeionut
- Start date
for marth, i find it relatively easy to start a chain grab sequence with sheik's down throw and you can get up to around 54% if you time it correctly before they DI out of it. otherwise, i'd say that changing to Zelda is prolly gonna be your best bet since sheik is so heavy she's going to get the **** comboed out of her. also, zelda's heel is an amazing finisher move.
for fox, so long as you can slap it off the level, the side B is actually a decent edge guard against fox. you'll have to know how to use it though since if you continuously hit him with it, he'll be drawn closer rather than pushed away. Also, sheik's f-air has amazing priority and it's actually rather easy to use it on fox either before he can start his recovery, halfway through his recovery, or right after his recovery.
i don't know if that was actually helpful to you or not but that's just what i've learned from playing sheik. sorry if it's not that useful. =(
for fox, so long as you can slap it off the level, the side B is actually a decent edge guard against fox. you'll have to know how to use it though since if you continuously hit him with it, he'll be drawn closer rather than pushed away. Also, sheik's f-air has amazing priority and it's actually rather easy to use it on fox either before he can start his recovery, halfway through his recovery, or right after his recovery.
i don't know if that was actually helpful to you or not but that's just what i've learned from playing sheik. sorry if it's not that useful. =(
seigehyland
Smash Ace
for the fox when they are off the edge...you can use some needles to mess with their recovery...and if u edge hog against a fox, your back air is your best bet...it always pisses me off when i play fox against a sheik ...because a well placed Back air will always stop a fox. chain grabbing always helps against both of those chracters, but in some matches people will agree no chain grabbing, so dont rely too heavily on it...
my best advice is to just play smart. the more combos the better. a good combo is grab ,dthrow, ftilt, Dsmash. just try out different combos with the tilts too...they work for me.
Dont get me wrong..IM NOT A PRO!!...everyone plays differently, but this is what works for me, so good luck finding yur own style.
my best advice is to just play smart. the more combos the better. a good combo is grab ,dthrow, ftilt, Dsmash. just try out different combos with the tilts too...they work for me.
Dont get me wrong..IM NOT A PRO!!...everyone plays differently, but this is what works for me, so good luck finding yur own style.
CORRUPTiON
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2006
- Messages
- 159
Against marth, never approach him from the air. He'll **** you with pretty much anything he has. Down throw to f-tilt to aerial at lower-mid percentage. At higher percents just d-throw to aerial. Use b-air and needles to edge guard. Also, learn how to light shield edge guard.
For fox, at lower percentages, mainly go for grabs. If you try to tilt him, he'll be able to hit you before your tilt lag ends, so it's not worth it. You're going to want to d-throw to tech chase and end with d-smash or u-smash. A fun thing I like is to shffl a f-air to grab at low percentages. When he gets to around 40%, start dash attacking to f-air. You can also tech chase to dash attack. Edge guard respectively.
For fox, at lower percentages, mainly go for grabs. If you try to tilt him, he'll be able to hit you before your tilt lag ends, so it's not worth it. You're going to want to d-throw to tech chase and end with d-smash or u-smash. A fun thing I like is to shffl a f-air to grab at low percentages. When he gets to around 40%, start dash attacking to f-air. You can also tech chase to dash attack. Edge guard respectively.
smasher01
Smash Ace
mindgames wade
zeionut
Smash Apprentice
ur a juice bagg
smasher01=cokloss
owner of club carlos
the homosexual club for men
smasher01=cokloss
owner of club carlos
the homosexual club for men
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=3482483&postcount=82
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=3568386&postcount=198
First one is Fox/Falco
Second is Marth
Check my thread
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=3568386&postcount=198
First one is Fox/Falco
Second is Marth
Check my thread
elvenarrow3000
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,308
Uhhh... I'm pretty sure you can't chaingrab either Marth or Fox. Marth is too floaty, Fox is too... fast...fall...y.
Anyway.
You want to be setting up for fairs for both of them. Dthrow, ftilt/dtilt until they get into fair range. With Marth, don't be afraid to run off the edge and hit him with a fair. Just one fair or bair off the edge will usually kill him because he doesn't have much horizontal recovery. You can throw needles too, but they're not as effective. Don't let him get below you and don't be afraid to force him to approach you by throwing needles.
Fox can do some pretty nasty things to you with shines, so if you do get shined, try to DI away from them and hope they don't waveshine very far. Throw aerial needles at them when they try to recover and edgehog immediately after. If they try the Fox Illusion to recover, you can eat through it with a bair or a dsmash. Oh, and he'll edgehog you when you try to recover to force you to the ledge to usmash you in your lagtime, so be aware of that.
Anyway.
You want to be setting up for fairs for both of them. Dthrow, ftilt/dtilt until they get into fair range. With Marth, don't be afraid to run off the edge and hit him with a fair. Just one fair or bair off the edge will usually kill him because he doesn't have much horizontal recovery. You can throw needles too, but they're not as effective. Don't let him get below you and don't be afraid to force him to approach you by throwing needles.
Fox can do some pretty nasty things to you with shines, so if you do get shined, try to DI away from them and hope they don't waveshine very far. Throw aerial needles at them when they try to recover and edgehog immediately after. If they try the Fox Illusion to recover, you can eat through it with a bair or a dsmash. Oh, and he'll edgehog you when you try to recover to force you to the ledge to usmash you in your lagtime, so be aware of that.
Actually you can CG both of them lol
Marth you can CG for a long time as long as they DI away from you otherwise he can double jump before you can grab him again.
However you can CG marth no matter where he DI's from around 0 - 10ish
Fox you can CG around 150+ with up-throw............
Well for fox its pretty much not practical but marth on the other hand........
Marth you can CG for a long time as long as they DI away from you otherwise he can double jump before you can grab him again.
However you can CG marth no matter where he DI's from around 0 - 10ish
Fox you can CG around 150+ with up-throw............
Well for fox its pretty much not practical but marth on the other hand........
mecatomato
Smash Lord
i am sorry,
but for those who have said that sheik can chain grab marth and fox...
False.
You cannot chaingrab them IF the players are smart.
Fox.. actually you can chaingrab at very High percentage with down throw,
but at very high percentage... you would rather Fair him to kill than keep throwing him..
If you ask me, why sheik is not able to chain grab them...
i have to say that..
THEY CAN JUMP OUT OF THE CHAIN GRAB.
you can actually chain grab marth for once from 0% to 13%. (one throw and then re-grab)
but that isn't really effective against good marths.
but anyway.
Against marth, the first thing you should always remember is to
stay OUT or IN side of Marth's range.
if you are outside of his range, use needles,
if you are inside of his range, watch out for his grab, and you grab him or tilt him.
Dthrow to tilt to aerial usually works.
also, you always have to fight "OUTWARD" as in, from the center of the stage to edge.
once you got kicked out of the stage,
you are pretty much dead, unless marth makes mistake.
Ways to Kill Marth,
1. Wait for his Fsmash. you gotta find a way to dodge that sh*t and then during the lag of Fsmash, you should grab and then start combo or run-crouch cancel to Dsmash him.
2. After a Dthrow, if marth doesn't have a DI (when he is right above you), give him a Usmash. as long as he is right above you, you will get a sweetspotted Usmash, that kills marth at 80%. (90% in DreamLand 64. that explains?)
3. When you kick marth out of the stage, EdgeHog, and stay on the edge.
when he is about to use his UpB,
let go of the edge, and then use rising Nair.
you will exchange hits, but you should be able to kill him.
4. number 3 works when he is recovering from below.
if he is recovering from a height...
read the rhythm of his OverB, and hit him with Fair of Bair outside of the stage.
i cannot think of more right now.. but they are pretty much it for effective ways to kill marth.
I don't get enough Fox Practice.. so i am figuring this out, too.
Good Luck in vs Marth.
but for those who have said that sheik can chain grab marth and fox...
False.
You cannot chaingrab them IF the players are smart.
Fox.. actually you can chaingrab at very High percentage with down throw,
but at very high percentage... you would rather Fair him to kill than keep throwing him..
If you ask me, why sheik is not able to chain grab them...
i have to say that..
THEY CAN JUMP OUT OF THE CHAIN GRAB.
you can actually chain grab marth for once from 0% to 13%. (one throw and then re-grab)
but that isn't really effective against good marths.
but anyway.
Against marth, the first thing you should always remember is to
stay OUT or IN side of Marth's range.
if you are outside of his range, use needles,
if you are inside of his range, watch out for his grab, and you grab him or tilt him.
Dthrow to tilt to aerial usually works.
also, you always have to fight "OUTWARD" as in, from the center of the stage to edge.
once you got kicked out of the stage,
you are pretty much dead, unless marth makes mistake.
Ways to Kill Marth,
1. Wait for his Fsmash. you gotta find a way to dodge that sh*t and then during the lag of Fsmash, you should grab and then start combo or run-crouch cancel to Dsmash him.
2. After a Dthrow, if marth doesn't have a DI (when he is right above you), give him a Usmash. as long as he is right above you, you will get a sweetspotted Usmash, that kills marth at 80%. (90% in DreamLand 64. that explains?)
3. When you kick marth out of the stage, EdgeHog, and stay on the edge.
when he is about to use his UpB,
let go of the edge, and then use rising Nair.
you will exchange hits, but you should be able to kill him.
4. number 3 works when he is recovering from below.
if he is recovering from a height...
read the rhythm of his OverB, and hit him with Fair of Bair outside of the stage.
i cannot think of more right now.. but they are pretty much it for effective ways to kill marth.
I don't get enough Fox Practice.. so i am figuring this out, too.
Good Luck in vs Marth.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
marth
just grab him a lot and be hyper conservative. defensive play by sheik destroys him, so spam lots of needles, cc into grabs if he retreat fairs and doesn't sweetspot them when you approach. approach on the ground, don't do too much stuff from the air. he's going to try to outgrab you so just jab intelligently and when he starts reading those d-smash him so you can set him up for more camping and defensive play and just keep him out of your face until you're reading to grab him or whatever. be really gay with platforms and how you use them to tech chase him out of d-throw.
and edgeguarding marth is really easy, if you're smart he should be dead every time he's off the stage. ledgehopped aerials, bairs, needles, lightshield edgehog and all that crap should keep him dead.
fox
smash di shines, approach him if he lasers you and do it very carefully with spaced bairs and fairs. these are safe for sort of looking for patterns in how he blocks, namely whether he shields mainly or sidesteps and when he does those because d-smash or grab are big against fox. jumping over him and fairing is good periodically for catching him for jumping out of shield.
if he full jump nairs try to call him for it and uair. if he shffls one wd back and f-tilt or d-smash. bair against his approach is good so long as you maintain spacing. and proper bair use is hard for him to punish if you do it right.
when you b-throw at the edge just make sure he's dead. a lot of foxes like to double jump into air dodge onto the stage (stupid bam) so i like to d-smash them off when they do those before they land on the stage and then run off weak bair and then do whatever's appropriate from there. if they sweetspot with double jump you can time needles to gimp them or wavedash backwards and bair into another bair or edgehog and drop down double jump into bair or something gay. you can do a bunch of ****. just remember that they can sweetspot with their double jump if they're good and will air dodge to platforms or stage to **** with you so just react to those accordingly. and from there the usual crap applies. needles --> fair is good, bairs are good, f-tilting him out of illusion that isn't sweetspotted into f-air is good, d-smash for their unsweetspotted illusion is good, etc.
out of d-throw you have like three ways to tech chase. landing the d-smash is probably the most consistently doable tech chase option because of how easy it is. you just wd with their di and run towards their tech (or stand in place) and d-smash. if they don't tech you d-smash. very easy to do, good for getting percentage if you're not sure what to do. alternatively you can time and space an u-smash to cover 3/4 tech options (takes practice but it can be done kdj does it a lot in his vids) or you can try to regrab if you predict their tech spot properly. or mix between the three. at mid percentages go for a dash attack and then slap them off into some gay egdeguard. or d-smash them off if they tech in place.
u-throwing fox onto a platform is also good, i find. i'm not sure whether this works on chester, vwins, and bam because they're not used to it or because it actually works though so spam at your own discretion. this is really good on stages like stadium and yoshi's where the platforms are nice and low where your u-tilt pokes through them and sets up for combos and you can also chase them with aerials (which aerial depends on percentage; at low %s probably go for bair or you may be cced into u-smash, which used to be a problem when i went for uairs and nairs). d-throw will typically be better, however.
in short... bair is good. d-smash is also good. f-tilt is very good. and grab whenever you can. sh uair him out of stupid things if he jumps at you high and make sure he's dead whenever he's off the stage. space jabs so you don't get ***** by cc shines and u-smashes.
oh and if he's attacking you, he's probably doing you a favour. sheik wants to be able to play defensively against fox because she has more priority and range. fox is best vs sheik when he lasers to make her attack him and then looks for mistakes because he's actually fast enough to punish them.
just grab him a lot and be hyper conservative. defensive play by sheik destroys him, so spam lots of needles, cc into grabs if he retreat fairs and doesn't sweetspot them when you approach. approach on the ground, don't do too much stuff from the air. he's going to try to outgrab you so just jab intelligently and when he starts reading those d-smash him so you can set him up for more camping and defensive play and just keep him out of your face until you're reading to grab him or whatever. be really gay with platforms and how you use them to tech chase him out of d-throw.
and edgeguarding marth is really easy, if you're smart he should be dead every time he's off the stage. ledgehopped aerials, bairs, needles, lightshield edgehog and all that crap should keep him dead.
fox
smash di shines, approach him if he lasers you and do it very carefully with spaced bairs and fairs. these are safe for sort of looking for patterns in how he blocks, namely whether he shields mainly or sidesteps and when he does those because d-smash or grab are big against fox. jumping over him and fairing is good periodically for catching him for jumping out of shield.
if he full jump nairs try to call him for it and uair. if he shffls one wd back and f-tilt or d-smash. bair against his approach is good so long as you maintain spacing. and proper bair use is hard for him to punish if you do it right.
when you b-throw at the edge just make sure he's dead. a lot of foxes like to double jump into air dodge onto the stage (stupid bam) so i like to d-smash them off when they do those before they land on the stage and then run off weak bair and then do whatever's appropriate from there. if they sweetspot with double jump you can time needles to gimp them or wavedash backwards and bair into another bair or edgehog and drop down double jump into bair or something gay. you can do a bunch of ****. just remember that they can sweetspot with their double jump if they're good and will air dodge to platforms or stage to **** with you so just react to those accordingly. and from there the usual crap applies. needles --> fair is good, bairs are good, f-tilting him out of illusion that isn't sweetspotted into f-air is good, d-smash for their unsweetspotted illusion is good, etc.
out of d-throw you have like three ways to tech chase. landing the d-smash is probably the most consistently doable tech chase option because of how easy it is. you just wd with their di and run towards their tech (or stand in place) and d-smash. if they don't tech you d-smash. very easy to do, good for getting percentage if you're not sure what to do. alternatively you can time and space an u-smash to cover 3/4 tech options (takes practice but it can be done kdj does it a lot in his vids) or you can try to regrab if you predict their tech spot properly. or mix between the three. at mid percentages go for a dash attack and then slap them off into some gay egdeguard. or d-smash them off if they tech in place.
u-throwing fox onto a platform is also good, i find. i'm not sure whether this works on chester, vwins, and bam because they're not used to it or because it actually works though so spam at your own discretion. this is really good on stages like stadium and yoshi's where the platforms are nice and low where your u-tilt pokes through them and sets up for combos and you can also chase them with aerials (which aerial depends on percentage; at low %s probably go for bair or you may be cced into u-smash, which used to be a problem when i went for uairs and nairs). d-throw will typically be better, however.
in short... bair is good. d-smash is also good. f-tilt is very good. and grab whenever you can. sh uair him out of stupid things if he jumps at you high and make sure he's dead whenever he's off the stage. space jabs so you don't get ***** by cc shines and u-smashes.
oh and if he's attacking you, he's probably doing you a favour. sheik wants to be able to play defensively against fox because she has more priority and range. fox is best vs sheik when he lasers to make her attack him and then looks for mistakes because he's actually fast enough to punish them.
zeionut
Smash Apprentice
wow u guys r giving me alot of help cant thank u all enough
i hope other trouble sheik players r reading this cuz it is good info to know!, lol
i hope other trouble sheik players r reading this cuz it is good info to know!, lol
TheKneeOfJustice
Smash Lord
None of that was correct at all.
Both match-ups aren't too hard.
Marth:
Stay grounded for the most part. You will both be looking for grab openings. Fortunately, you have a projectile, and good one too. Work around with dash dances, dash cancel f-tilts, needles, and jab cancels until you can work in a grab and combo away. Marth can't be RELIABLY chain-grabbed, so just work on racking up damage as fast as you can.
Space back airs so you are tipping his shield if you have too. Also learn to wavedash out of your shield so you can get grabs off when he lands behind you.
Be aggressive off the edge, but be careful too. Try to time a sweet spot Bair or Fair in between his over+b recovery, and use needles when applicable. And of course, light shield edge hogs can be an easy guaranteed kill.
Try to stay of platforms.
Fox:
Grab. A LOT. YOu have a lot fo good tools here. Mainly for me at least: Grabs, Tilts, and Bair. Also, you can Fair him out of a lot of stuff. At low percents I usually go for grabs -> tech chase and try to force him near the edge. You can also back throw and try to go for the double Bair kill. Just try to get get him off the edge very fast, and watch out for his obvious u-smash/uair set-ups.
mecatomato
Smash Lord
no. you should not stay on platform.
you should be below marth.
Marth's Fsmash is ******** enough to get the sweetspotted Fsmash on us if we camp around on the platform.
you need to use platform to change position with marth. not to fight from above.
True. Grab is essential.
BUT,
good (level of semi-pro or above) foxes always shine after the aerials.
it makes the grab more difficult for us.
there are few frames of fox's L-cancelling time that we can actually grab him, but that is too risky.
once you get shined, fox will perform shine -> grab Uthow -> Uair OR shine-> Usmash
PLUS, good foxes will always keep distance from you by Dash Dancing and Wave Dashing back.
it makes even harder to grab him.
so you gotta make setups for it.
What i can recommend you for now are these
1. Needles to Grab (jump -> needles -> grab)
2. above 50%, Ftilt or (Dtilt->jab) to grab. Parenthesis as in one.
3. jab a lot in front of him. jab should cancel fox's shine if you got it right. Then, fox would have lag from broken shine. that is the time for you to grab.
4. grab after a dash attack, IF fox doesn't have DI much.
I cannot guarantee that you will ALWAYS success with those.
I am still working on it too.
PLUS...
not like Falco's, Fox's UpB has a hitbox around him. Also, his UpB is Ridiculously long.
FURTHERMORE, Fox and Falco have NO LAG after their UpB.
which means that if you are not 100% sure that you can kill fox outside of the stage,
don't try too risky things.
there are situations that you NEED them. I agree.
But you don't success that ALL THE TIME, right?
be smarter (no offense to anyone).
Try to think what would be the best choice at the certain situation.
zeionut
Smash Apprentice
alright i got a couple of vids of me playing my playing partners
so tell me wat u think
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=198951054286804519
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7999093354884307787
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1442202553431769948
ill get the one vid of me vs smasher01s marth up soon
p.s. sorry for it being on google video, youtube says it failed to upload or sumtin, o and sorry bout the quality, it kinda sucks cuzz of the big black line that shows up every once and a while
so tell me wat u think
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=198951054286804519
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7999093354884307787
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1442202553431769948
ill get the one vid of me vs smasher01s marth up soon
p.s. sorry for it being on google video, youtube says it failed to upload or sumtin, o and sorry bout the quality, it kinda sucks cuzz of the big black line that shows up every once and a while
mecatomato
Smash Lord
hmm
1st thing to improve is DI.
you seem to have decent combo. it's good. good.
anyhoo. you should down throw more.
No Uthrows...
Uthrow only when you are under the low platforms.
if you send him up to the platform, wait till he stands up,
Nair (which covers whole platform,,, pretty much)
or go up to the platform at wait till he stands up and re-grab.
don't use needles too much when you are recovering.
I did that a lot, too, but it has more negative impacts.
1st. needle in the air stops your momentum...
2nd. if you missed your opponent with needles, then you are losing the distance of the recovery + more chance to kill you for your opponent.
Be precise with it, or better not do it.
and as i have mentioned,
shine makes grab waaaayyyyy harder for sheik.
wait for their mistake, or make a setup for grab.
oh,
and you do too much run-crouch Dsmash on the edge.
you should REACT to your opponent's move.
spamming Dsmash in front of them is not a very good choice. i have to say...
hope you don't take my post as an offense.
I should go back to study. =P
got exam tomorrow and day after tomorrow. T-T
hopefully, i get to record some matches with Cunning Kitsune and NJzFinest.
if i get to record, i will put them up on Youtube.
hope they would help.
peace
1st thing to improve is DI.
you seem to have decent combo. it's good. good.
anyhoo. you should down throw more.
No Uthrows...
Uthrow only when you are under the low platforms.
if you send him up to the platform, wait till he stands up,
Nair (which covers whole platform,,, pretty much)
or go up to the platform at wait till he stands up and re-grab.
don't use needles too much when you are recovering.
I did that a lot, too, but it has more negative impacts.
1st. needle in the air stops your momentum...
2nd. if you missed your opponent with needles, then you are losing the distance of the recovery + more chance to kill you for your opponent.
Be precise with it, or better not do it.
and as i have mentioned,
shine makes grab waaaayyyyy harder for sheik.
wait for their mistake, or make a setup for grab.
oh,
and you do too much run-crouch Dsmash on the edge.
you should REACT to your opponent's move.
spamming Dsmash in front of them is not a very good choice. i have to say...
hope you don't take my post as an offense.
I should go back to study. =P
got exam tomorrow and day after tomorrow. T-T
hopefully, i get to record some matches with Cunning Kitsune and NJzFinest.
if i get to record, i will put them up on Youtube.
hope they would help.
peace
smasher01
Smash Ace
got some advice for me
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
watched the fox and falco vids.
your edgeguarding is in need of a lot of improvement. sheik only keeps up with space animals with gimps so when he's off stage he should be dead. many times he'd be firefoxing and you'd do nothing and i keep thinking... if you're not going to jump off and fair/bair/nair him and kill him, at least try to needle him or time the tilt/d-smash to kill him. but he lives.
ex: at 0 : 19 in the falco vid, you have him off the stage firefoxing, you jump off and then rather than slap him and kill him, you let him recover. this confuses me.
you need to be much, much, much more active against falco. he stands and lasers while you shield. then hits your shield and combos you a little. then goes back to laser. and you keep standing there.
stop trying to shield grab both of them out of their aerials. shine will **** that every time and give them free combos.
less f-smash and more f-tilt. you f-smash at bad times when f-air would have worked (mostly during combos) or not doing anything (or doing something safer) would have been better (and not gotten you near killed or punished badly). as for f-tilt, you barely f-tilted at all and it's really crucial against fox for poking him and setting up f-airs to kill him.
also stop killing yourself when you recover.
your edgeguarding is in need of a lot of improvement. sheik only keeps up with space animals with gimps so when he's off stage he should be dead. many times he'd be firefoxing and you'd do nothing and i keep thinking... if you're not going to jump off and fair/bair/nair him and kill him, at least try to needle him or time the tilt/d-smash to kill him. but he lives.
ex: at 0 : 19 in the falco vid, you have him off the stage firefoxing, you jump off and then rather than slap him and kill him, you let him recover. this confuses me.
you need to be much, much, much more active against falco. he stands and lasers while you shield. then hits your shield and combos you a little. then goes back to laser. and you keep standing there.
stop trying to shield grab both of them out of their aerials. shine will **** that every time and give them free combos.
less f-smash and more f-tilt. you f-smash at bad times when f-air would have worked (mostly during combos) or not doing anything (or doing something safer) would have been better (and not gotten you near killed or punished badly). as for f-tilt, you barely f-tilted at all and it's really crucial against fox for poking him and setting up f-airs to kill him.
also stop killing yourself when you recover.
zeionut
Smash Apprentice
alright alright
im goin to improve on wat u guys said and hopefully i can get better vids up soon, i tend to screw up more in front of a camera, lol
im goin to improve on wat u guys said and hopefully i can get better vids up soon, i tend to screw up more in front of a camera, lol
zeionut
Smash Apprentice
o ya almost forgot, heres the me vs smasher01s marth
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4267450422857453037
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4267450422857453037