Trouble KOing with Fox

[Hom3fly]

What are your most reliable kill set ups, and how/when do you know which to use? For example, in my opinion the most reliable set up is shff dair to upsmash, but they can tech or jump out and it seems to not work past 130% (like most of his set-ups.) I'm also aware of weak nair to upsmash, double jab to the ledge downsmash/upsmash, uptilt uair, side-b uair and obviously bair or uair. However, I always end up in the situation where I gain a quick lead and either try to wait for an opportunity to use one of these set ups and eventually get killed, or continue fighting my opponent until they're at 200%+. This frustration has led to me borderline giving up on and losing confidence in my Fox, as I seem to get better results with other characters who kill much easier. But I don't want to quit Fox. I want to get better and learn to use what he has. Please help.

 

[BradLeeTee]

I was going to give u the thread that talked about kill set ups but seems like u already know all of em so that won't help much. Just saying being a player who doesnt get impatient and throwing out USmashes around kill percents is a good start, anyways there's a few things u may not know that help me get my kills. My Fox amiibo actually taught me about how good a jump cancelled up smash out of shield can be. Whenever I fought him as Fox I'd throw out moves that I thought were safe like a FTilt at point blank, UTilts, NAirs from above his shield and sometimes a dash atk and everytime the USmash came out quick enough to punish these, so learn to start doing this instead of shield grabbing when theyre within kill range. I've also gotten a few kills by full hopping then fast falling and using an UAir at the same time to punish say a whiffed grab, or smash atk, this can kill from the ground at about 140%~. Also if u can catch ur opponent with a short hop FF FAir by reading a jump or aerial and they miss the tech afterward that's either a free USmash or DSmash for u no matter the percent. I'm sure uve also come into contact with players who camp in their shields when their percent reaches a high number, this can be extremely frustrating since Fox wont be killing with a throw until 300%. The only thing I can say is just grab them and throw them in the air or offstage, this does put ur opponent at a disadvantage since theyre now in a position where u can then either go for an airdodge read or an edgeguard attempt with a NAir, DAir stage spike, FAir spike or ledgetrump them if they need to grab the ledge to recover. If that's not working for u, u can always try applying pressure by approaching with BAirs since they're safe on shield due to them auto cancelling

 

[EndlessRain]

In more general terms than BradLeeTee, you have to pressure them. If you catch your opponent slipping, you can land a nair, a pivot ftilt, a utilt, a dtilt, etc. and from there you can kill.
Move around a lot, run in but don't commit to anything, weave in and out of their threat range (while avoiding attacks, obviously), just generally keep them on their toes without actually hitting them. That way, they'll start to commit to stuff as you come in, be it a defensive measure or an attack to punish your movement. Once they commit, they're dead, because you are waiting for them to commit.
Fox has pretty crazy mixups, and you gotta use this trait to its fullest. You have another advantage in this position as well: the moves you're throwing out (nair, utilt, ftilt, dtilt and so on) are very, very fast, and low-risk, but give you the highest reward possible: the stock. Whereas to kill you, your opponent has to commit to something altogether more risky. If they do something weak but safe and hit, you're not going to die. If they miss with something weak but safe, you can still get a conversion with your "weak but safe" moves and kill. If they whiff something risky, well, it's risky for a reason.
And yeah usmash OoS is fantastic.

 

[Commander Keen]

You can land a Dair and running up smash to kill, it actually K.Os Ness at 95 and yoshi around 115

 

[Rhus]

Random tip that's underutilized: Fox's moves stale badly, so before going in for the kill, try to make sure the move is fresh. Lasers are of course excellent for this, as are jabs.

Fox's fresh Usmash is very powerful, but the staled one is blah. Try to hit the fresh one. If you miss one, don't fish for it after, it'll just make it worse.

 

[Hom3fly]

I appreciate the tips guys. This is exactly what I was looking for. I feel like there is (of course) a lot of discussion about what is guaranteed to kill, but much less so what we can do to get into those scenarios. I am not too good at fast fall fair jab lock set ups, but I've been working on them. I've been grinding out learning double jab set ups and really trying to learn against what characters do they work, can they break out and at what %s with what move, do they link into kill moves, etc etc. The MySmashCorner video has an excellent list on this and really helped me with the Ness matchup since you can jab him all day long and combo it into upsmash. I'm pretty sure this applies to Lucas as well.

 

[Stilll Alive]

its really stupid how easy you can connect dair to up smash

 

[Bloodcross]

ftilt, bait shieldgrab, upsmash

$$$$

 

[Jaroking]

I cant get the fair spike down, I meteor people with fair but they can always recover even at 200%

 

[EndlessRain]

See, it's not actually going to kill them on its own. What has to happen afterwards is them messing up their recovery (obviously, you should never count on this) or you getting them with a footstool before they can gain enough height to avoid dying to it.

 

[AvengerV]

There are a few ways I get my KO's.

DAir -> Up Smash
NAir -> Up Smash
Short hop fast fall FAir at the ledge (Can gimp characters with bad to mediocre recoveries like Mario, Falcon, etc)
Short hop fast fall -> Down Smash
Short hop fast fall -> Up Smash
Side B -> Up Air
Jab Jab -> Up Smash
You can also kill with Up B but its pretty risky so I wouldn't do it especially if a character has a counter.

 

[EndlessRain]

Jab1->Jab2->spaced Jab1->spaced Jab2->tipper dtilt->uair works. I have no idea if it's in any way reliable, but it works. Will test further once I get my game back.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Jab resets don't really work out for me anymore. Jab 1 -> jab 2 -> fsmash might be a thing though and could allow to implement the underutilized option of using fsmash.

 

[JBix]

So far I am loving Fox, but being a fairly new player it has been very painful starting off with him. My biggest complaint with Fox is the fact that he really requires kill setups. It seems a little crazy that we are having to fish for kill setups like jab 1 jab 2 spaced jab 1 spaced jab 2 to d-tilt to upsmash. When other characters can grab you at 110 and back throw for the ko.

I personally think fox being more difficult to kill with is making me a better player, but I do think it would be nice if we could get a more guaranteed kill option at 150% plus. One thought would be more shield push back on a shielded upsmash or possibly more shield damage. I have a lot of trouble with sheiks who just sit in shield not caring if I grab them because they know they beat me off stage. At the same time they let me rack up damage so they can kill me easier.

Finally, that being said I love the enthusiasm other Fox players show and the work they put in to develop these kill setups. Thank you for sticking with it!

 

[EndlessRain]

Dude what? Having more kill setups makes it easier to kill, not harder. Mario players, for example, have to fish for a laggy fsmash or usmash or something, necessitating a super-hard read and with dire consequences if they miss We get to fish for a frame 2 jab, a frame 7 aerial that autocancels, a frame 3 tilt etc.

And regarding throws: uthrow or dthrow, then try to read their reaction (eg. uair them after their airdodge for uthrow). It works. Not all the time, but it works. Fthrow->follow tech option/getup option->usmash is a thing, too.

 

[JBix]

I'm sorry I realize I came across like I was whining, but I really did not mean to. I just meant I have a lot more trouble getting kills with fox than I have with any other character I have attempted to main. Thank for the advice regarding the 2 throw kill combos

 

[Jamurai]

Is there a good character and % that you guys use for your punching bag in training to practise kill setups? Or does it vary with each setup? They seem important to get down to muscle memory as well as possible.

 

[EndlessRain]

I use Robin. Dead average in terms of weight, fall speed, air speed, hurtbox size etc. I typically set him to around 100%, change it up every few tries to get used to how he'll move differently based on percent. When I can, I have a friend DI them different ways so I can get used to chasing that. I switch characters once I get a few in a row, try a floaty (usually Puff) or a heavy (always DK lol) to mix it up.

 

[Top Boss]

most of my ko's come from up air, back air, u smash,and edgeguards with d smash. getting people above you will make KO's a lot easier

 

[ShiroSSB]

Your kills depend of your reads. I normally kill with up smash whenever I know someone is going to be stuck in 4-15 frames of lag from anything.

 

[pkjuicebox]

His biggest problem is that he doesn't have a grab kill combo and if your opponent is smart they will sit in shield and try to get you to commit to them as Upsmash has enough end lag to usually be countered with a smash attack of their own, even with the new shield-stun mechanics. Ex: There's a Ness at my weekly that drives me up the wall because he'll sit in shield all day at the ledge and fish for a grab to finish the match because there isn't much I (imo) can do to make him come out and fight me. If I'm ahead in percent I just wait it out even if it's super boring.

As someone said before, Fox kills best when his opponent is above him so even though you can't do much out of grab after 40% of so, try throwing them up and connecting with Uairs to make them think twice about hiding in shield. Levels with platforms help fox well. (Dreamland, Town and City, etc.).

 

[SSTT]

To consistently kill with fox, you need to get comfortable with ledge trumping, since u-smash setup opportunities aren't easy to come by in high-level play, and fox gets punished really hard for fishing for these setups.

Ledge trumping is honestly the only "true" kill confirms for fox. And properly so, too, since fox's bair range is just within reach when your opponent gets popped up from having the ledge stolen, and his dsmash is fast and sends the opponents at a downward angle. Since ledge trumping is a reliable way to limit your opponent's options, it's also less mentally draining, so you won't have to worry about burning out in tournaments.

 

[EPM]

^^actually I've been wondering about ledge trumping because I never do it. How do you get a confirm off of it? Like do you let go of the ledge with back or down? I guess I just have to go practice the timing but any advice to make it easier would help a lot.
Also does anyone of the data on how much faster jump cancel up smash OoS is than just dropping shield and up smashing? I've noticed that Fox sometimes has a hard time punishing after blocking an attack if I didn't perfect shield, so I slid back a little bit.
What are your guys' favorite punishes after you've been pushed out of shield grab range?

 

[SSTT]

EPM Try to hog the ledge just a few frames before your opponent grabs it, so that your end lag will be over when your opponent's pop up animation begins. And then simply double jump into a bair while your opponent is still in the animation. If your timing is incorrect, it will result in a simple ledge trump. Though it won't net you a guaranteed punish, you can still read your opponent's movements, fox's vertical movement allows him to do so with ease: jump getup bair, read his airdodge to uair or utilt, and if he dares to regrab the ledge, punish it with a dsmash.

 

[Chalice]

Found another kill set up that works around 120-140% on all the cast. Don't know if it was mentioned yet but I'll post it here anyway

You are as close as possible to the opponent oppoenent so ideally behind them while they sit in shield so you don't get grabbed. This is a good tomahawk move to use

So anyway, be as close as possible and then:

Jab jab, Dtilt as quickly as possible, then if you act quickly you can true combo into Uair

Since the double jab puts them at the tip of the dtilt, it will pop them straight up which is perfect for Uair

EDIT: Nevermind, it was already mentioned

Jab1->Jab2->spaced Jab1->spaced Jab2->tipper dtilt->uair works. I have no idea if it's in any way reliable, but it works. Will test further once I get my game back.

Still, you don't necessarily have to always space the jabs to get it. Just letting you guys know that this can work whether you space the jabs or not. You can space it or be right up close

If you space the jabs, this can kill characters like Sheik with or without rage starting as early as 100%

If you don't space, the dtilt to uair won't true combo until around 120%

 

[JBix]

As another post says. Don't under estimate up-air. I feel one Fox's best combos is up throw, empty shff to fh up-air. Utilizing up-air amd just putting it out there as a form of pressure can cause your opponent to make mistakes. Also reading edge get ups is another easy way to pressure your opponent into mistakes. If my opponent sits in shield, I'm going to grab him. They can't kill you either by sitting in shield, so take the free damage.

 

[Asa]

Def get on them fair gimps

 

[luke_atyeo]

I'm going to grab him. They can't kill you either by sitting in shield, so take the free damage.

I wish it were free damage, but because of the rage mechanic, that 'free damage' can backfire and end up working against you, something to keep in mind.

 

[Kanunuu]

All of the kill setups were already mention so I'll be covering the neutral game to get a feel as how to get to these setups.

Fox will almost always win neutral against anyone. His laser pressure and rushdown potential almost guarantee your neutral game victory, (assuming you are more skilled then the opponent, or they are not using sheik who destroys fox.) Due to his rush down oriented kit, fox demands a player with fast reaction times, able to outspace the opponent and punish all of his options fast enough. Because you should win most of your exchanges, getting a kill isn't your top priority. Don't fish for down airs neutral airs and upsmashes. Most people know the staying in shield is a good strategy against fox because of his lack of kill throws. The goal of your game play should be to constantly keep pressure on your opponent through mixed-up approaches.
This isn't the only way to play fox, but this is how I play fox and I've had a lot of success with this general strategy. Here are some of the mix ups that I've learned that lead into hard punishes and stocks.

If you find your opponent is staying in shield dash dancing does wonders and can bait out punishable options. You can safely pressure the opponent with backairs and and immediate up tilt, but don't rely on this as uptilt is surprisingly punishable. If you predict a punishable options such as grabs, a shorthop backair is a really strong option as there is no character that can avoid this punish if timed correctly.

If your opponent tries to punish you with tilts that reach your shorthop hurtbox, simply fullhop. Fox is one of the few characters that can fullhop to space out attacks because of his fall speed. A full hop immediate fast fall back air can punish most ftilts not named sheik. Another option altogether is to shorthop nair. It's very difficult to punish, and leads into up smash, and dash attack up air.

If you find your opponent to be rolling a lot around you, simply empty hop. If you react fast enough you can get a back air or nair. You can also full empty hop and tomohawk their sheild after they roll.

In summary fox weaves in and out attacks to apply pressure. As long as you are winning the neutral the stocks will eventually fall. Don't get impatient.

 

[luke_atyeo]

Don't get impatient.

Easily the most important advice given in this thread so far