"Triforce of Communication" Zelda Matchup Number Thread

[BJN39]

~~ ZELDA MATCH-UP THREAD ~~

As I said I was planning, this thread will be a base for the plan I had.

This plan was to ask Zeldas experienced in MUs to give their opinions on ratios of MUs and then go to each board of the corresponding character, and ask the players experienced in the Zelda MU to give their ratios, and then average all the numbers.

I will be doing characters in a mostly random order, but if many people here show interest in a MU for next, I may do it. Any MU number collecting will go on until I feel we've collected a sufficient amount of ratios, or people from both sides don't express MU experience. I will also show the number of players who inputted from each character.

I hope we can get this going well, and also feel free to share any tips either to beat the opponent, or to handle Zelda as well. ^ ^



-- BOWSER --
Current Ratio: 60:40 (Zelda)

Zelda(Left) VS Bowser(Right)

Bowser Contributors:
_Odds - 75:25
deadjames - 60:40 / 55:45 (worst-best)

Zelda Contributors:
jtm94 - 60:40
PrincessAzula - 55:45
Pika_thunder - 55:45

-- NESS --
Current Ratio: 60:40 (Zelda)

Zelda(Left) VS Ness(Right)

Ness Contributors:
The_NZA - 65:35
~tgm_Zeej - 45:55

Zelda Contributors:
the_irish_dude - 55:45
Rizner - 60:40
flying_tortoise - 60:40
Pika_thunder - 60:40

 

[BJN39]

First character: Bowser!

Anyone/everyone with MU experience bring it in! I want those ratio opinions!
LOL

Also, this will be the base thread for ALL the MUs, I won't be making a bunch of separate threads for the characters.

 

[jtm94]

I "want" to say Zelda vs Bowser is AT LEAST 60:40 on my first instinct.

Bowser should never be able to get in on Zelda. I believe he can crouch cancel Dins Fire for a while though, not 100% certain though.
He's so vast anyone can land a kick on him once he's in any type of hitstun, if they getup attack, you can kick, in the air, kick.
He KOs Zelda super early, but with good DI she can live a tad longer. As long as she isn't getting hit by sidesmashes or upsmash.

Him not having above average range means teleport is also effective against him when not used predictably and his weight means Nayru's doesn't send him far at all so tech reads can be a thing. I haven't played against any above average Bowsers though, this is mostly theory. On small stages Zelda may lose favor. Zelda can also change to Sheik and that's a good time as well.

 

[PrincessAzula]

I "want" to say Zelda vs Bowser is AT LEAST 60:40 on my first instinct.

Bowser should never be able to get in on Zelda. I believe he can crouch cancel Dins Fire for a while though, not 100% certain though.
He's so vast anyone can land a kick on him once he's in any type of hitstun, if they getup attack, you can kick, in the air, kick.
He KOs Zelda super early, but with good DI she can live a tad longer. As long as she isn't getting hit by sidesmashes or upsmash.

Him not having above average range means teleport is also effective against him when not used predictably and his weight means Nayru's doesn't send him far at all so tech reads can be a thing. I haven't played against any above average Bowsers though, this is mostly theory. On small stages Zelda may lose favor. Zelda can also change to Sheik and that's a good time as well.

You're right about the losing favor on small stages. Bowser can put a lot of pressure on us on stages like Fountain and Yoshi's Story (Melee)

Zelda v. Bowser is probably 55:45 IMO. Zelda naturally does well against bigger character, as she can rack up damage and land kicks way more easily. His armor can pose a problem and great care should be taken whenever he gets in our space. Fortunately, Bowser is pretty easy to edgeguard against. I find just stalling and then teleporting directly into the ledge is quite effective. Bowser is one of the few characters that fthrow -> fair is effective on. Always keep that in mind when you have him grabbed at about 65%+.

The biggest problem I have had with Bowser is his up-b (OOS). It's very hard to deal with and Zelda doesn't have much to counter that, except maybe Nayru's. It can be alleviated by teledashing either away or into him and following up with usmash. But using Farore's woud require good timing, as Whirling Fortress comes out faster than Farore's.

Just remember to take Bowser to larger stages, as we can exert more stage control on him. Matchup becomes slightly more even when we go to a smaller stage. Both character have awesome kill power, but he can kill us much earlier, so we just have to play more defensively and not let him get too close (Fair and Fsmash hurt)

 

[BJN39]

Well, the number collecting for Bowser has become rather stagnant, so I guess we'll head on to the next MU to focus on. (Please note, if you still haven't posted your ratio, you still can for bowser, the thread is just gonna start more focus on the next MU now. Also, the numbers for Bowser will be posted in the first post soon.)

Next MU:

NESS

The psi kid with a hat.

 

[jtm94]

I don't know how to feel about Ness.

 

[the_irish_dude]

i play a really good ness in Zeej. as a small character Ness is a hard play. witth him being floaty tho, if they messup a DJC they are toe bait. id say even tho i have problems id put it 55-45 Zelda. you can bait with dins and dash attack fairly easily. also Nlove reflects fire. tho they can hit you again before you finish love if they do it right :/

 

[Rizner]

I'd say Zelda wins this matchup by at least 60-40. She can reflect his fire, and by doing so covers his punish. He doesn't have tons of tools to clank with properly placed dins (above his bat but stll low enough to hit him) and dies early or gets gimped easily. His bat out ranges most, maybe all of her ground options, but it does take time to get out. He can absorb dins, but that can be baited or punished if relied on too much. Zelda's kicks have reach on most of his arials, and if she is below him she has tons of options. If above him, it's not good, but her teleport can often help getting to the ground more so than ness getting down. His pk flash does help against an off stage Zelda as far as making her teleport early or giving her less time of she wanted to dins then teleport on the way back, but is not good enough of an option to rely on.

 

[BJN39]

First MU's current stats are out! As you can see, I'll be showing the numbers and who contributed them. In the future I will also add any notes given by users to each MU section.

 

[flying_tortoise]

I say 60-40 in favor of zelda. As long as you keep your dins close to you, if the ness tries to absorb you can punish. His double jump, makes it hard for him and it seems that ness is highly dependent on his pk fire for combos, for this you can use nayru or just shield. Idk I never really played a good ness, so maybe they were just making a lot mistakes.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Nayru's Love is trash against PK Fire. It's very easy to space PKF so that the projectile dissolves before it gets back to Ness, and he then has frame advantage. Enough for pretty much whatever he wants as a punish. Don't even get ne started on aerial PKF.

Nair is 4 frames, and has a pretty deceptive hitbox. It eats Dins alive. Absorbing them is ill advised, as the absorb lag is highly punishable by Zelda. It is nice if she's offstage to get some damage back though.

Ness loses this match up in the air without a jump. Otherwise, she has to work very hard to make her game work against Ness.

I'd put it at 55:45 Ness, but probably reversed on smaller stages (Warioware in particular).

 

[Pika_thunder]

Nayru's Love is trash against PK Fire. It's very easy to space PKF so that the projectile dissolves before it gets back to Ness, and he then has frame advantage. Enough for pretty much whatever he wants as a punish. Don't even get ne started on aerial PKF.

Nair is 4 frames, and has a pretty deceptive hitbox. It eats Dins alive. Absorbing them is ill advised, as the absorb lag is highly punishable by Zelda. It is nice if she's offstage to get some damage back though.

Ness loses this match up in the air without a jump. Otherwise, she has to work very hard to make her game work against Ness.

I'd put it at 55:45 Ness, but probably reversed on smaller stages (Warioware in particular).

I really disagree as someone who plays against a ness a lot.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I really disagree as someone who plays against a ness a lot.

Oh? Might I ask why?

 

[Pika_thunder]

Oh? Might I ask why?

Mainly once you get him off the edge naryu's beats almost all options, gimps are really easy. Back throw, they jump to ledge, use naryu's, they have to use their horrid recovery, lightning kick, kill.

I may just be playing against a bad ness, but ness' general combat vs. Zelda seems weak as well. Ness' pk fire is annoying but if you SDI correctly you take 1 percent. Ness also has poor spacing. Would like to say more, gotta go.

Edit: stupid me forgot to add MU numbers
IMO: Zelda v Ness is 60:40 Zelda
Also Zelda v Bowser is around even with a slight Zelda advantage so 55: 45 Zelda

Also can we discuss Fox next? I think that Zelda beats fox 55:45 and want to see what everyone else thinks.

 

[BJN39]

I've put in all the current Ness numbers now! ^ ^ Still taking them though, we aren't moving on just yet.

Also, any recommendations for how I could "pretty up" the main post?

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Mainly once you get him off the edge naryu's beats almost all options, gimps are really easy. Back throw, they jump to ledge, use naryu's, they have to use their horrid recovery, lightning kick, kill.

I may just be playing against a bad ness, but ness' general combat vs. Zelda seems weak as well. Ness' pk fire is annoying but if you SDI correctly you take 1 percent. Ness also has poor spacing. Would like to say more, gotta go.

In a situation like that, Ness should really Double Jump backwards with a fair, and recover high. His recovery cancels if he's sliding along the ground, leaving him pretty much lagless. He's not impossible to edge guard, but he certainly has options.

PK Fire can be SDI'd pretty easy, but it also depends on how deep it connects.

I strongly disagree that Ness has poor spacing tools, especially against a character like Zelda. Fair and Nair alone outspace a lot of characters, without the benefit of DJCs and PSI Magnet shenanigans.

EDIT: @ BJN39 - Yeah, I'm a Ness main.

 

[Pika_thunder]

recover high.

Bad idea dude. 2 words: lightning kick.

If ness jumps backwards, lighting kick> ness fair. One kick after jumping backwards = "hit the bricks pal, you're done!" No, but seriously, you're dead.

In terms of spacing
Zelda on right - Ness on left
Fair/ Bair/ Nair > all ness' air moves
Din's fire< pk fire
Tilts> ness tilts
Zelda smashes< ness smashes

But, with that said, Zelda's moves are faster
In speed Zelda - Ness
Fair/ Bair/ Nair > all ness' air moves (if Nair which I'm not sure about is faster than 5 frames it is faster)
Dian's fire < pk fire
Tilts< Ness tilts
Smashes> Ness smashes

So speed + spacing seem close to = but what makes this MU in favor of Zelda is combos.
Zelda's combos on Ness>>> Ness' combos on Zelda.
Ness' combos on Zelda are really easy to DI out of.

Edit: BJN39, You seem to have missed my numbers from my previous post.

 

[BJN39]

Edit: BJN39, You seem to have missed my numbers from my previous post.

Actually, I edited the first post and came back later to find that you'd edi your post with MU numbers. No worries though, they are added now.

 

[the_irish_dude]

omg....you guys.... lol i think zelda has slightly higher win percentage vs ness but you got it all wrong. do your opposing ness players not DJC at all? as Zeej said, love does nothing to PK fire. as long as ness controls the short hop area on the ground, he has the advantage. ness is faster and can bait. im not the best zelda by any means and i play against Zeej alot but he is by no doubt one of the better ness players out there. watch how he plays - not how i play- and then think about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yp5WBoxdVs&list=PLaZhs7JqS4yPh9bZ_2XYf7Io3IcECnMlQ

 

[foxygrandpa]

Does anyone else feel like she has a positive matchup on fast fallers? I main sheik, but after realizing how good zelda is on them, I play zelda against them instead.

 

[Pika_thunder]

omg....you guys.... lol i think zelda has slightly higher win percentage vs ness but you got it all wrong. do your opposing ness players not DJC at all? as Zeej said, love does nothing to PK fire. as long as ness controls the short hop area on the ground, he has the advantage. ness is faster and can bait. im not the best zelda by any means and i play against Zeej alot but he is by no doubt one of the better ness players out there. watch how he plays - not how i play- and then think about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yp5WBoxdVs&list=PLaZhs7JqS4yPh9bZ_2XYf7Io3IcECnMlQ

The problem here is you are basing the MU off of yourself. You say you are not the best Zelda, and the other guy is a really good ness. That's like saying," m2k's mewtwo beat (insert lower level player here) when they were playing fox! Mewtwo has a good Fox MU!

That is pretty close to what you have done here. Also DJC is not as great as you make it seem. Just watched, you should not be getting hit by PK flash, DI the Dthrow better, lightning kick to escape those combos, use Ariel naryu's. he just has a better awareness of how you play. If you still can't beat this ness try a more defensive strategy.

Does anyone else feel like she has a positive matchup on fast fallers? I main sheik, but after realizing how good zelda is on them, I play zelda against them instead.

That's why I want to discuss Fox next. I think Zelda beats him.

 

[Blondie.]

I think a lot of the opinions I'm hearing of MU's are slightly clouded from personal experience rather than actually evaluating both sides of the MU evenly. Zelda loses a lot of MU's imo. A lot more than you guys think.

Ness for one is in Ness's favor. Try out ranging his fair with anything. You simply can't. Try setting up fire balls (not that using fire balls is ever a good idea in the first place) and he'll just down B them. Get grabbed by his enormous dash grab and you are gonna eat >60% off guaranteed combos. On the other hand you have almost no guaranteed combos on him, other than small 2-3 hit strings. Then once you get to ~115%, you get back thrown. That is if he hasn't already killed you with his bair that out ranges your fair/bair.

I've played Awestin quite a bit, so I feel like I have a pretty good idea of how that MU goes. I give it 65:35 Ness

Sheik however kinda destroys Ness. If you want to beat a Ness player, use Sheik.

Fox is beatable, but it's definitely in Fox's favor. It's probably 60:40 Fox.

If you want to beat Fox, you have to be extremely patient and wait for him to mess up. The only way you're gonna get a combo on him is if he screws up an approach or something, or doesn't know the MU and starts making stupid mistakes (watch m2k fight Zhime or Salem to see what I mean).

Fox can literally DD camp you all day and there is NOTHING you can do about it. Whenever he wants he can run in and get free shield pressure. The way I play this MU is I keep shielding until he either screws up his shield pressure or spaces a bad approach. Then I grab and hope I can 0-Death him.

Note that Fox can't uthrow > uair you. You are too floaty and heavy for it to work. This means shielding is a very very good option in this MU. Basically you just want to be in your shield as much as possible. Also note that waveshine > usmash is super easy on Zelda, so make sure you don't get shined!

If you want to get a good idea of why this MU is so bad, just watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb9zIbqdg2g

As far as Bowser, I'm not really too sure. I feel like Zelda could win slightly just by fire ball camping. It makes life harder on the big turtle. Although he can kill you REALLY early. I could see this being even, but I'll give it 55:45 Zelda. I'm less sure about this match up than the other two though.

 

[Pika_thunder]

Try out ranging his fair with anything. You simply can't.

Fair/ Bair/ ftilt/ Naryu's/ move away and throw a fire ball. Yes you can.

you are gonna eat >60% off guaranteed combos.

This is not quite right. DI down throw correctly and there are no guaranteed combos(unless that was changed), but the PMBR is too smart to give a character guaranteed combos of over 40% on floaties.

On the other hand you have almost no guaranteed combos on him, other than small 2-3 hit strings.

He has little to no guaranteed combos on Zelda.

Then once you get to ~115%, you get back thrown.

DI upwards and you live much longer.

his bair that out ranges your fair/bair.

No, kicks > ness' Bair

Main thing is whoever you are basing this knowledge off needs to learn to DI in the right direction. Or maybe the ness they are playing is just really good at reading DI.

 

[Blondie.]

This is the only footage I have of myself playing Awestin, and it's from a long time ago, but you'll get the idea

http://youtu.be/isEJ19jhj-g?t=48s

I ate 87% off that combo from getting hit by a single fair. If I DI'd the dthrow away, he would've done DJC fair > regrab and just make the combo longer.

I hate to be that guy, but basically no one plays Ness even close to the level Awestin does. Ness has guaranteed combos off of dthrow on every character no matter how you DI. Just watch how broken that guy makes Ness look and you'll understand why all of Texas thinks Ness needs to be nerfed.

DJC fair and DJC bair cover like 1/3 to 1/2 of the stage. Zelda can't out range that. Not to mention fair has multiple hitboxes and sets up perfect for freaking long combos on floaties.

 

[jtm94]

I will say people put Ness lower than he is. He's very capable.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Well, I was gonna say stuff, but people Blondie basically already said most of it.

I think it's a little more even than that, but I'm not exactly Awestin-level either.

 

[the_irish_dude]

Pika, your first response to zeej asking reasons behind your MU thoughts was based off of your exp with your local ness. its all about who you play and what you see.

 

[Pika_thunder]

Pika, your first response to zeej asking reasons behind your MU thoughts was based off of your exp with your local ness. its all about who you play and what you see.

Still ness has an awful recovery. I would vote worst in the game. (not counting sopo or nolimar.) as one commentator once said (paraphrasing)"everyone is good on the stage, and better players are better on the stage, but were all the same off of the stage.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Ness does not have a terrible recovery, bro. It's difficult, and quite exploitable, but it's distance, coverage, and variability are fantastic.

 

[Gamegenie222]

So how's the Zelda vs Diddy MU for you guys? I found myself switching to Zelda against a Diddy player a few days ago in a serious set of friendlies and it was my first time against Diddy and was bopping him so I wanted to know some info on the MU and what to lookout for?

 

[jtm94]

Diddy can overwhelm Zelda with projectiles, but bananas are actually kind of advantageous to reflect.

His dash attack is pretty good, but I don't think the MU is really all that skewed from character to character. I put it even.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Bowser MU 55-45 (Zelda): As high as 65-35 (Zelda) on favorable stages. As low as 50-50 on unfavorable stages. Overall, I give it a 55-45 (Zelda) because I see more stages that I consider even or slightly more in Bowser's favor

I think that Bowser MU is very stage dependent, because the swing vote is your Teledash game. Both characters punish each other hard, so it's a matter of who can gain the upper hand movement wise. Well, sans Teledash, Zelda's movement is actually kind of poor for working around Bowser. You can try to poke in like a Jigglypuff, but you'll get torn apart by an armored attack unless you can get in close enough to sweetspot an LK. On stages you can Teledash with freedom, however, you can run away with the game. FD, PS2, Dreamland, and even Battlefield to some extent have a large enough lower platform that you can Teledash to your benefit. Smaller stages such as Yoshi's, WW, and FoD, where you can't really Teledash much, Bowser can eat you alive. P:M Bowser is pretty darn good, imo, and he benefits greatly from a stage he likes.

Ness MU: I have no idea at all...I'd need some more current data on the MU, and I haven't found any yet.

Diddy MU 60-40 (Diddy) !!![Not sure if you want to include this number because it's pretty much 100% speculation]!!!: Not sure yet, but I feel like it would be 60-40 (Diddy). Zelda doesn't do well against characters who pressure her really hard. She needs some space to breathe. Diddy has plenty of approaches with side-b, bananas, dash attack, grabs, and aerials that he can pick and choose how he wants to come at you, and he can do it instantaneously. The reason I don't think it's more skewed is that a very good Zelda player MUST be very good at reading, and if the Diddy starts to form patterns, he can be punished by a properly timed Nayru's Love or f-smash or something of the like.

 

[Pika_thunder]

Ness does not have a terrible recovery, bro. It's difficult, and quite exploitable, but it's distance, coverage, and variability are fantastic.

Lol

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Lol

?

Wasn't expecting a notification on this one after a month. xD