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Transforming is pointless?

foxygrandpa

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Is there any reward to switching actiively between zelda and sheik? I'm a sheik player and I was wondering if its worth learning zelda, in order for transforming to be implemented into my sheik playstyle. I thought about it in matchup sense, but I realized that I could always just use a secondary character if the matchup was disadvantageous.

As a side note, in melee, when sheik had fully charged needles and died as zelda, she retained her charge. Would this be possible to implement back in, would this be unfair?

Also, after transforming to sheik, the din's fires on the course all explode. I think it would be more interesting if they stayed, so that a player can benefit from clever placement.

If there is no benefit of switching between the two besides zelda's better recovery, it might be in both of the character's better interests to be separated, and just get new down specials.
 

QQQQQQQ7777777

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Sheik can deal high damage quickly and Zelda can KO people at fairly low percents. A match made in heaven IMHO.
 

otheusrex

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As a zelda main, I feel the shadow of sheik's greatness, so the benefit of transforming to sheik seems very real. But I don't imagine sheik mains feel the same way. I hope that in the future they design transform to give sheik mains the extra incentive to use transform in battle that they'd need to switch to an objectively worse character, however, there are a few tangible advantages for shiek to transform already.

Boost transform. This is a special recovery technique for sheik. You're already aware that zelda has a longer and floatier recovery, but did you know that with a certain input after hitstun you can do a super air jump during transform? Right when your hitstun ends, press jump and you'll notice a higher than normal air jump. If you quickly press down b (very quickly, you need to claw it) after the jump, then you'll keep your rising momentum from that larger air jump during transform and we'll be able to recover as Zelda from a higher angle.

I imagine you might be able to boost transform to avoid certain characters' followups because of the intangibility of transform, but only combos you could escape by jumping so maybe it's not as worth it? I've been harping on them to speed up the start up time of sheik's transform to facilitate transform as a dodge for her. I haven't asked a sheik main what they'd think of this and if this would make them more inclined to use it. What do you think? and what could they do to sheik's transform to make you want to use it?

Another thing about transform is that if you do it in the air, you can buffer any input besides a cstick one and sheik/zelda will cancel all endlag and do the input on frame 1 after the loading time of transform. So supposedly you could bait someone by transforming in the air and punish with a lightning kick or a slap. Imo this maneuver as a whole has such a long start up that it becomes completely impractical and is essentially just a flashy disrespect way to kill. It also has a a very simplistic way to be punished so imo it doesn't work how it was intended: none of zelda's aerials come out fast enough to avoid always being punished by your opponent once they learn to throw out a lingering hitbox (like falco's dair or link's nair) just before you come out of the loading sparkles.

Finally, a more theoretical advantage to switching to zelda mid battle is just that they have different playstyles and people say that a smart player can use this to trip up your opponent. I think this is a vanishing advantage however, because if we saw a lot of good shieldas, then people would just get used to it. Nevertheless, because they function differently, if you learn zelda then you can take advantages of situations that do favor zelda over sheik:

A sheik player once told me that sheik in general, but specifically with the sheik/fox match up, when the opponent is at low percentages sheik needs to play incredibly carefully, dashing around, needles, running in to grab and getting chain throws to build damage, but when fox reaches 55% suddenly your dash attack will pop him up for a combos and the match up suddenly turns in your favor. Zelda excels at combo-ing fast fallers at low and mid percents so you can be zelda to build up the percents pretty fast, throw or knock them away so you can transform and then death combo with sheik. People always say sheik is fast so you can rack up damage but zelda can rack up damage with less effort. LC nayru into an usmash is a sure thing all the way to high percents and you can almost always follow it up with a nair for a combined total of 39%. Her upthrow will CG spacies from 0-60% easily, you can cg a fast faller twice and easily followup with a bair for 39% as well. Against other characters her dthrow deals 15% damage by itself and sets up for a tech chase, so you can see what I mean. At higher percents, yes zelda has powerful kill moves, but they are so slow that they all require either a garaunteed set up (which she does NOT have) or a good read, while sheik on the other hand, can easily bait an opponent with her superior mobility, set up with a dtilt, bthrow, dair, fsmash, lc needles, or dthrow for a slap. Sheik's moves come out much faster than Zelda's, making it that much easier to punish an opponent on a reaction.

Anyways, this is all I can think about about sheik to zelda, hope this helps!
 

drsusredfish

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Sheik's moves come out much faster than Zelda's, making it that much easier to punish an opponent on a reaction.
Not that I don't agree with you but Zelda's dsmash, upsmash, dair, dtilt, up b, and side b are faster than Sheik's respectively. Some of them are by like one frame but the data don't lie. fun fact Zelda has the fastest dsmash in the game. An even more fun fact its the fastest smash attack in the game.
 

otheusrex

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Not that I don't agree with you but Zelda's dsmash, upsmash, dair, dtilt, up b, and side b are faster than Sheik's respectively. Some of them are by like one frame but the data don't lie. fun fact Zelda has the fastest dsmash in the game. An even more fun fact its the fastest smash attack in the game.
True, but pretty much all sheik's kill options are much quicker than Zelda's and therefore require less reading to execute
 

foxygrandpa

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True, but pretty much all sheik's kill options are much quicker than Zelda's and therefore require less reading to execute
I tried zelda out a little more and I still feel like learning zelda for me is pointless. It would be cool if the din's fire placement carried over throughout the transformation, so that I could use a combination of sheik's amazing edgeguards and zelda's fire traps. The two characters complement each other, in terms of covering each other's weaknesses, but switching is inefficient because of each character losing their stage advantage when they switch.
It would be cool if when switching to sheik, the dins fires would stay there and instead of exploding, would just disappear.
 

GKInfinity

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I think it's worth knowing how to play both characters just for different matchups. I'll switch from sheik to zelda to recover too.
 

Arcalyth

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It's not technically possible for Din's Fire to persist after transforming because there's no entity to attach the articles to. This is the same reason that Transform drops Snake's C4s. There's nothing for them to attach to. In pre-3.0 Project M Din's Fire simply disappeared as soon as you went intangible. Now they explode, which does reward clever placement of fireballs and good timing of transform :)

otheusrex brings up a good point about Transform recovery techniques. Recovery is definitively a Sheik weakness that Zelda mitigates substantially. In a recovery situation you are on the defensive, and Zelda excels at playing defensively. Learning how to play Zelda, at least long enough to end a stock, will increase your kill efficiency by helping you die less.

I wrote a post in the social thread that addresses some things about on-stage transformation. Basically, it's not a good move on-stage. Here, the discussion is on recovery: again, Zelda's recovery is significantly better than Sheik's. Longer range, more sweetspot angles, ending hitbox, ability to stall with any of her other specials, AND you still get a double jump. Sheik just gets a double jump and Up-B. But then you're Zelda after you transform, and as I said in my other post, transforming is completely useless if you can't play the other character.

Zelda has what she needs to succeed. She has reliable kill setups and methods of maintaining momentum and controlling space. She may not win neutral often, but she only needs to do it once to get a devastating punish. Her weakness is in creating advantages. Her strengths are in reversing pressure and punishing hard. Sheik can create advantages, and maintain them constantly, but can have a hard time penetrating an opponent's defenses directly and doesn't reverse pressure as well. She then has the weakness of dying more easily.

It takes intimate knowledge of both character's movesets to be able to successfully combo with Transform though. I think the move could be considered more of an "extra life" for Sheik mains than a combo tool.

Here are some example situations of when I use each character.
 
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Garde Noir

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Beginning Project M using Sheik, I found Zelda to be scary, particularly because of her Glass Cannon status in each Smash game prior. I was tentative to learn her, as she was slower, and easier to kill in some instances, but her amazing recovery inspired me to keep working. With decent knowledge of each character, you're literally forcing the opponent to face two different characters, and have the knowledge of both in the match-up. I highly recommend at least becoming familiar with Sheik, especially her combo game, which is faster and racks up damage more quickly than Zelda, while being able to escape. I recommend to all Sheik players that they learn Zelda's amazing defensive positions too, something none of them are used to. Being able to quickly change, and make the adjustment is a mindgame that no other Smash game has had, simply because in each, Zelda has been overshadowed by her alter-ego. Now that she's finally a full blown force of her own, learn both sets-- it's definitely worth it!
 

Bakasama

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Depends on the opponent. Chances are, you don't want to be in a situation where you're getting chaingrabbed, and generally being Zelda can remedy that. Also, Zelda's kicks provide a defensive wall that Sheik mains could familiarize themselves with quite easily, rather than the now well-known camping abilities that she carries. Her recovery is way better with side-b no longer causing helplessness, and her neutral B is a parry now. I play Sheilda, and frankly I just switch back and forth so the opponent can't hold a download. Or sometimes if I'm near the bottom blast zone, I'll swap before death just to at some uncertainty to the opponent's assumed momentum. It's two characters. Except at the same time. It's like you got a built in counter-pick because of how different they are. You can use it, or you can not use it. You may as well learn it, because otherwise you're not only ignoring the option to transform into a floaty character, you're ignoring all the options the floaty character has, so your game is left pretty damn unoptimized.
 
D

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On the contrary. When you go into a match, one skill set is naturally bound to have higher utility than the other. By simply picking the tools (on the character) that are better able to defeat your opponent, you are preemptively optimizing your performance. So given your example, let's say we know that the opponent's character is able to chaingrab sheik from the character select screen, but then you would be better off as Zelda from the start of the set and transform is still not used. If you want to frame it as having access to two characters, that's not necessarily a bad way to do it but you also have to acknowledge that one character is a strictly better choice than the other every time and there's almost never a justifiable reason to switch. This argument also assumes that you are equally proficient at playing both characters, which has never been true once in my modest 12 years of playing smash.

I do believe that there are times when transform are useful, such as:

- switching to recover when there is no opportunity cost (i.e. the opponent suicides while you're recovering, and only one recovery will make it and the other won't, and you can switch back to the higher utility character before the opponent can punish it. very rare situation).
- switching to edge guard in the rare event that the lower utility character is better at edge guarding and you can't be punished for it (so basically there's no chance the edge guard can fail)
- you are losing and believe that you have chosen the character with lower utility by accident at some point in the set. even then, you should basically transform exactly once and the argument holds to stick with the character that has a better chance to winning.
- you want to disrespect your opponent by beating them with sub-optimal tactics (ex. zhime's video)

however, these are the exception to the rule and not the normal circumstance.
 
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D

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Personally, I think the downB should be replaced for something else for both characters.

Zelda can either get her old Din's Fire onto her downB or an instant detonate of her placed Fireballs. Whichever. But her current downB is downright useless if you play just Zelda.

Smash 4 saw how synchronized both characters were, and how useless the mechanic was, so I wish PM would do the same. They truly don't work well together.
 

Garde Noir

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Now that Smash 4 is implementing it, I think it will get changed. However, whether the P:MBR decided to create the same downB As Smash 4 will be something you and I have no say in.
 

BJN39

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Now that Smash 4 is implementing it, I think it will get changed. However, whether the P:MBR decided to create the same downB As Smash 4 will be something you and I have no say in.
I actually don't see it happening in P:M.

First, sheik is sheik. Nuff said really. They'd never pollute sheik lest people scream their heads off about it.

Second, if Zelda were to get a WHOLE NEW MOVE, there's definitely have to be weakening/changes to other parts of her to compensate. (IE weakening of specials, which would then get backlash from Zeldas, and, you know the drill...) and on top of that, what if Phantom Slash became an incredibly silly move? (people would hate her more, lol.) Which let's be clear, it would be easy for P:MBR to make the move useable, but equally easy for them to break the move if it isn't already being designed broken in Smash 4.

Just my thoughts on why they won't remove it in favor of new moves.
 
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Kaeldiar

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Not that I don't agree with you but Zelda's dsmash, upsmash, dair, dtilt, up b, and side b are faster than Sheik's respectively. Some of them are by like one frame but the data don't lie. fun fact Zelda has the fastest dsmash in the game. An even more fun fact its the fastest smash attack in the game.
It's also worth nothing that Sheik gets very limited use out of ALL of the moves you just listed. d-smash is nice, and up-smash is done only off of throws, but the rest are nearly useless as attacking moves. Not to mention, Sheik's up-b is slower to disappear, but it has invincibility
 

drsusredfish

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It's also worth nothing that Sheik gets very limited use out of ALL of the moves you just listed. d-smash is nice, and up-smash is done only off of throws, but the rest are nearly useless as attacking moves. Not to mention, Sheik's up-b is slower to disappear, but it has invincibility
Part of the reason why they are limited is because they are slow though. Dtilt and dair aren't that limited either. I find them useful for starting combos at mid %. In my opinion the only moves that are limited on that list are sheiks side b and up b.
 

M@v

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A lot of people, especially the people coming from melee, have no clue that when you transform from the angel platform, Zelda/Sheiks invincibility does NOT wear off by the time the transformation ends. You can get so many people with this who try to punish your transformation, whether you upsmash/bair/grab them as Zelda or downsmash/upsmash/grab/fair them as sheik.

Also, its good to learn both characters to an extent...if you do not feel at least competent with sheik you should stay zelda unless there is an extreme emergency, because you likely will only do worse. I'm comfortable with both because Zelda is my PM main, and Sheik is my melee main, and a large portion of sheik's playstyle transfers over to PM, the main exception being changes to the grab game. If you are comfortable with both characters, switching mid match can force your opponent to constantly try to adapt and adjust themselves for 2 different characters. This is the first(and only) smash where both Zelda and Sheik are good characters, so switching isn't a bad idea. In some matches where I started off slow as Zelda, I would randomly switch between sheik and zelda to force my opponent to adapt. Take advantage of Dins's exploding when you switch as well to set up timed traps.

P.S. I'm going to start posting on smashboards more again and start contributing to the community more online. I used to be extremely active on the boards with brawl, and I want to do the same with PM :)
 
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Praxis

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Sheik can deal high damage quickly and Zelda can KO people at fairly low percents. A match made in heaven IMHO.
I feel like it's the opposite vs Diddy...Zelda has amazing banana control but at high percentages the Shiek switch increases her survivability (Diddy loses uthrow KO options) and can edgeguard Diddy better (needles and fair).
 

BJN39

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I feel like it's the opposite vs Diddy...Zelda has amazing banana control but at high percentages the Shiek switch increases her survivability (Diddy loses uthrow KO options) and can edgeguard Diddy better (needles and fair).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjsbBlUjeqk

The last part of the final battle. Zhime switchses to sheik at 102% and gets Dthrow > FAir comboed by Diddy. It looked like it (as a general use) wasn't avoidable, but I'm probably wrong though.

I don't think an Uthrow KO would cause a Zelda to feel the need to switch to Sheik when sheik can be Ko'ed at 100.
 
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Praxis

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjsbBlUjeqk

The last part of the final battle. Zhime switchses to sheik at 102% and gets Dthrow > FAir comboed by Diddy. It looked like it (as a general use) wasn't avoidable, but I'm probably wrong though.

I don't think an Uthrow KO would cause a Zelda to feel the need to switch to Sheik when sheik can be Ko'ed at 100.
Nope, it was a DI mistake. Like Marth's dthrow > fsmash tricks. Zhime thought Diddy was going to bthrow, so he DI'd up. Diddy dthrowed, and when you DI his dthrow up, he gets a fair.

If Zhime had DI'd away or down and away, he would have been fine. He was DI'ing to avoid a bthrow, and guessed wrong.

Oh, I don't need to explain, you're a Zelda player- you know all about guaranteed punishes when your opponent DI's your dthrow wrong :)

A lot of Diddy's "cheap" looking tricks (like dash attack to dair spike or repeated dash attacks or dthrow fair) are based on bad DI.
 
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Praxis

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjsbBlUjeqk

The last part of the final battle. Zhime switchses to sheik at 102% and gets Dthrow > FAir comboed by Diddy. It looked like it (as a general use) wasn't avoidable, but I'm probably wrong though.

I don't think an Uthrow KO would cause a Zelda to feel the need to switch to Sheik when sheik can be Ko'ed at 100.
I should add something else...

Teledash picks up bananas.

I really, really hate Zeldas that are proficient in the Diddy matchup.

-_-
 
D

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The main argument people make for why Sheik and Zelda should be able to transform between each other is that they are completely different characters and it can throw off an opponent's game.

That just seems cheap, IMO. If I were playing as bulky Link but then could switch to Pikachu when I needed to, sure that'd be nice. But the point is that you select ONE character and work with their strengths and work around their weaknesses.

The whole transforming Zelda/Sheik thing in Melee was a unique idea and kinda made sense for the character at the time, but times have changed, and even Sakurai has realized that most people like to stick with one character during a match, not switching back and forth. Project M has done a beautiful job in separating the Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon, and I'm baffled why the same treatment was not given to Zelda/Sheik.
 

Pikaville

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I've mained Sheik forever and in P:M using her and Zelda to rack up the damage and then KO has never felt better. Although I'm using Zelda more than Sheik nowadays. It's also fun insta-aerialing people straight out of the transform xD
 
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