Data Town Hall Meeting - Villager Matchup Discussion

[Sonsa]

Gah... I really gatta get to real tourneys so I can have the same matchup experience as y'all... and I believe you, but... Well fighting Megaman I feel rather hopeless, against Sheik I'm looking to get lucky and get in my opponents head.

Against Diddy? I know right where I wanna be and exactly what I wanna do. Around mid-range, close, but not too close, to punish attempted grabs, monkey flip endlag, try to bury em if they get impatient, and cover lots of space with turnips, gyroids, and slingshots. Trees and axe also aren't useless, but I'd only set those up if Diddy starts spamming peanut popguns or is off-stage, but when he's off-stage, I'd rather follow him.

Diddy wants to be close to you, they really want the grab! What're they ganna do further than midrange, shoot peanuts at me? Oh nooo, this is no where near as devastating as Megaman's Metal Blades and Crash Bombs or Sheik's needles. Being close is more dangerous, but also more advantagous. Diddy's ganna get in anyway if ya go start growing trees or just slingshot and gyroid from afar.

Diddy players are...I wouldn't say forced, but they really want to kill us with a Hoo Hah or Up-Smash, get us in the air at least to kill us up-top, cause they know our off-stage game is pretty damn good and with all the stuff we shoot out they probably wont get a spike. We can be a lot more creative with our recovery, while Diddy's can be quite out of their comfort zone off stage, one rogue gyroid its them as they're trying to retreat and they tumble potentially to they're death.

So! They're really going for a grab, trying to get you in the air, or to switch things up foward smash or fairing you off stage with attempted edgegaurds. And of course if you haven't pocketed the banana they will be hurling that at you before going for a grab, usually. They could use the banana to bait too of course, and gosh it's tempting, but try to launch a gyroid and then go for the pocket, or if they're aeiral slingshot them, it isn't always possible but it's very favorable to get Diddy away so he can't punish your pocket. You can be creative too though! Maybe a B-Reverse pocket. Maybe a down-tilt, but yeah, having that banana makes Diddy a bit less of a hassle and you can worry less about getting grabbed or tripping at an awful time.

I might be able to give the slight advantage to Diddy because of his...creative tools. Especially after watching My Smash Corner's new Diddy Tricks video... (I guess try to be on the left side of the stage always...??) but I just don't think Villager is as helpless as he is against other characters. Villager has the tools to take Diddy on! It's just...landing from the air is really stressful and Diddy is also pretty fast and can combo for a while without giving you much room to breathe at times. I dunno, I guess I'd be willing to agree that this could be 45:55, but in the end, y'all have more experience so we should trust ya more. I probably have never fought an amazing Diddy. Just hope I can go to tourneys soon to try and prove ya wrong >: )

There's some stuff going on around March that I can hopefully make it to. Hopefully college doesn't get too much in the way haha~

 

[Fatmanonice]

How bad would you guys say Villager vs Sheik is? About a week ago I played against a player who I two stocked almost every match except two matches where I played Villager and he played Sheik. Considering many of the matches were total blowouts, I was stunned especially since Villager is one of my mains. It's obvious that I was playing the matchup wrong but I was genuinely shocked at how hard I got my butt handed to me those two matches. What say all of you?

 

[Antonykun]

How bad would you guys say Villager vs Sheik is? About a week ago I played against a player who I two stocked almost every match except two matches where I played Villager and he played Sheik. Considering many of the matches were total blowouts, I was stunned especially since Villager is one of my mains. It's obvious that I was playing the matchup wrong but I was genuinely shocked at how hard I got my butt handed to me those two matches. What say all of you?

Sheik sonic yoshi and MM is why I play Pikachu

 

[Fatmanonice]

I've never had issues with Yoshi or Megaman. Guess I've never played those that knew the matchup but, knowing the strenghts and weaknesses of all three characters, I can understand how they would be a problem in the hands of good players.

 

[Saloah]

What do I do vs Captain Falcon? He just gets in on me so easy lol

 

[Rockaphin]

What do I do vs Captain Falcon? He just gets in on me so easy lol

I 'm having some issues with this MU as well. I've mostly been playing a keep away game. Retreating Nair, retreating Fair. Gimping Falcon isn't easy, but in my experience, he's one of the easier characters to gimp due to his linear recovery.

 

[Sonsa]

How bad would you guys say Villager vs Sheik is? About a week ago I played against a player who I two stocked almost every match except two matches where I played Villager and he played Sheik. Considering many of the matches were total blowouts, I was stunned especially since Villager is one of my mains. It's obvious that I was playing the matchup wrong but I was genuinely shocked at how hard I got my butt handed to me those two matches. What say all of you?

We discussed it before, and again I joined in around Page 12 and I think we agreed its 40:60 for us. She's really fast, edgegaurds well, hard to catch when we want to kill, has a teleport to recover so bowling ball won't work so great, and can really pressure us with needles which aren't worth pocketing.
What ya wanna do I guess is keep your space, slingshot when they're afar, short-hop turnips when they come close, try to punish the start-up of her teleport, orrr pick someone else...Good luck!

Also, Sheik has come up again for like...the 4th time! We really need the front page updated with a matchup chart and links to our discussions sometime soon - I'm so jealous of the Lucina Matchup Thread, there's is so beautiful, organized, and helpful!

What do I do vs Captain Falcon? He just gets in on me so easy lol

Cpt. Falcon, eh? I guess your getting caught with dash grabs and dash attacks? But lemme think here...

Villager vs Captain Falcon
So Cpt. Falcon has nothing to pocket and he can't reflect, so you're just ganna wanna use pocket for momentum shifts, invincibility while recovering, and maybe invincibility if he goes for a Falcon Punch. You could also use it during Falcon Kick and Raptor Boost, to have nice space, but yknow, sometimes its easier just to jump.

Jumping is real good in this matchup as pretty much all of Falcon's approaches are grounded, they'll only want to get aerial if fishing for a knee kill or mid-combo with lots of up-airs. So retreating slingshots and gyroids are great cause they can force Falcon to jump. While he's in the air I recommend approaching slingshots, you can juggle him with these, or follow up with tilts. You want to be pushing him off the stage because his recovery isn't stellar and gimping him is quite easier than other characters.

Another great move on stage is short-hop down-air turnips to punish attempted grabs or dash attacks. Then again, follow up with slingshots and so on! You can also punish Falcon Kick, Raptop Boosts, and dash attacks - the first two quite telegraphed - with a shield grab back throw to hurl em away, get more control with gyroids, and even maybe play the off-stage game if you threw him off the ledge. I find this matchup a bit easy usually, because they have to approach, his nice combos are stopped by our nair at times, we can force him into the air where he isn't as good as in the ground, and our off-stage game is way better.

Off-stage you can keep slingshotting until he can't reach the ledge anymore. All he can do to recover is raptor boost, which is telegraphed and punishable, and his up-b, which could catch you, but probably not get through long-lasting disjointed down-air turnips. You just keep slingshotting and down-air turnip shoving him away from the stage and you're golden. His recovery has noticeable start-up with no start-up hitbox so keep going and get him! You can also wait by the ledge and use bowling ball, Falcon will angle his up-b to avoid this but you might catch em slippin. Ledge trumping to back-air slingshot following up with more gimp chasing is also a strong option.

On-stage, yeah, gyroid, slingshots, turnips, if he uses raptor boost to try and punish rolls or spacing shield and punish that with down-smash or grab. He may go for a Falcon Kick to try and ruin your spacing, since you should be aerial you can just down-air turnips and launch him away to regain your space. He may be smart with it and try to punish your gyroid start-up so keep gyroids aerial or launch em from afar, out of Falcon Kick range.

When you are off stage with Falcon on-stage, you can start your recovery with a gyroid to protect yourself a bit. Falcon will either go for a spike or an up-tilt near the ledge. You can time your up-b to avoid this, but also if you weren't thrown too far away you can gyroid and then use your second jump to pocket onto the stage, using its invincibility to avoid a spike attempt from Falcon's down-air.

Tree can be helpful, axe is always nice, watering can is pretty nice against Falcon's up-b when they try to avoid bowling ball and also when trying to land on the ledge. A Falcon recovering high can be easily punished as they're in a helpless state so they'll usually go for the ledge.

Overall, Villager has a lot more powerful options and answers. All Falcon has going for him here is speed and combos. Speed can be troublesome, so forcing him into the air can slow him down. Combos can be broken with nair usually. Off-stage is a joy to Villager, gimping Falcon is really fun. Villager wins the air game, off-stage game, can manage on-stage, and can recover quite well without Falcon able to do much. You can both apply pressure, but Villager has the more powerful tools.
I guess I'd say this is... 60:40 for Villager?

Stages Villager prefers: Battlefield, Lylat, Town&City, Kongo Jungle probably, Halberd I think
Stages Falcon prefers: FD and Omegas without walls I guess, ...maybe Duck Hunt

 

[Douchuumen]

Sup Villager boards

Which characters would you guys say have a good matchup against Villager/can effectively shut down his projectile game? I can't seem to get around his campy playstyle.

 

[Antonykun]

Sup Villager boards

Which characters would you guys say have a good matchup against Villager/can effectively shut down his projectile game? I can't seem to get around his campy playstyle.

Sheik

 

[Sonsa]

Sup Villager boards

Which characters would you guys say have a good matchup against Villager/can effectively shut down his projectile game? I can't seem to get around his campy playstyle.

Megaman is the most painful with him having answers for nearly anything Villager does, Im not even sure where I want to be in this matchup.
Sheik can also be difficult with her needle pressure, often when we try to pocket those its more than one and we can't, and even then its not really worth pocketing. Plus edgeguarding her is a little tricky.
Yoshi also gives us trouble on-stage at least with his great jab and dash attack. Super armor double jump is also annoying, but killing him after they burn that jump isn't the hardest thing ever.

Honestly, I think our worst matchup is against Megaman. Pellets at midrange, metal blade and crash bomb from afar, great anti-airs with Megaupper and the tornado, can be creative with gimping/spiking us, overwhelming with projectiles at any range. But that's just me.

At least with Sheik we can shamefully play lame by racking up damage with gyroids blocking needles, our great aerials, and can live with our awesome recovery and Sheiks poor kill options.

 

[Darklink401]

I'd actually say Villager prefers FD against Falcon. Falcon's uairs are so deadly for Villager. But that may just be me.

I have an easy time against falcons tho, in FD and Omega, just gotta keep em away and early gimp them with aerials.

 

[Sonsa]

I'd actually say Villager prefers FD against Falcon. Falcon's uairs are so deadly for Villager. But that may just be me.

I have an easy time against falcons tho, in FD and Omega, just gotta keep em away and early gimp them with aerials.

Ohh yeah, good point. Yeah, I just prefer platforms cause bowling ball surprises are awesome, but Villager doesn't really need that advantage over Falcon. That up-air can start combos which isn't what we want. FD and Omega stages will limit his approach options, yeah, okay, I agree.

 

[Darklink401]

Ohh yeah, good point. Yeah, I just prefer platforms cause bowling ball surprises are awesome, but Villager doesn't really need that advantage over Falcon. That up-air can start combos which isn't what we want. FD and Omega stages will limit his approach options, yeah, okay, I agree.

I'd say the same applies to Sheik and ZSS, to an extent. They're forced to approach villager one-way, whereas Villager has tools to brush them away, if used correctly.

More effective against Falcon tho.

 

[Sonsa]

I'd say the same applies to Sheik and ZSS, to an extent. They're forced to approach villager one-way, whereas Villager has tools to brush them away, if used correctly.

More effective against Falcon tho.

Yeah, agreed. Getting rid of their approach options > Bowling Ball surprise. That shoulda been clear to me but I guess I havent been thinking about it. Thanks for the good point! Really snapped me out of whatever I was thinking. I guess when I first saw the bowling ball I was like "Oh wow, Villager is great with platforms" and gradually in my mind that became "Villager needs platforms". Villager is pretty awesome anywhere! Thanks XD
Could also help against Diddy to avoid his deadly up-air. But yeah, against Falcon who really wants to rush down and doesn't have overwhelming aerial options, totally agree, go FD, nah, go walled Omegas. But ones you can't wall jump off of - like Omega Kalos League. That could really ruin Falcon's day. Plus that stage is gorgeous.

Now we haven't talked about ZSS is depth yet, but I'm getting some ideas... ZSS's blaster is like water shuriken in that she can't cancel and shoot it later, so it's easier to pocket a full blast and the benefit is stunning her which can be used for such great set-ups like a tree kill, an axe kill, a down-smash to up-smash kill, over the ledge you can go for a turnip spike, you can even just kill with a back-throw at high enough percents. Villager having the benefit of a stun and pinning down his opponent is quite nice.

But ZSS has a tricky recovery with down-b and tether. Plus her up-b can kill. But we can punish tether with bowling ball if we stayed on stage...

And on stage, it doesn't seem like ZSS has that many great approaches, I usually see her want to blaster, grab, up-air, up-air, up-b. With us keeping our space and launching gyroids to stop blasters and release us from grabs this seems like a weak plan of her. But her dash attack can punish our gyroid start-up and get us in the air. She has some nice aerials, but she does - as a character - want to keep you at a certain space for blasters and grabs so she isn't the most pressure heavy character. She won't be constantly face to face with you like Jigglypuff or even Diddy at times.

Ahh, I'm rambling haha. I wanna talk in-depth and see how we feel about her, but I'm just worried I'm rushing too much. Do most of us agree Villager vs Falcon is like 60:40ish?

 

[Darklink401]

Yeah, agreed. Getting rid of their approach options > Bowling Ball surprise. That shoulda been clear to me but I guess I havent been thinking about it. Thanks for the good point! Really snapped me out of whatever I was thinking. I guess when I first saw the bowling ball I was like "Oh wow, Villager is great with platforms" and gradually in my mind that became "Villager needs platforms". Villager is pretty awesome anywhere! Thanks XD
Could also help against Diddy to avoid his deadly up-air. But yeah, against Falcon who really wants to rush down and doesn't have overwhelming aerial options, totally agree, go FD, nah, go walled Omegas. But ones you can't wall jump off of - like Omega Kalos League. That could really ruin Falcon's day. Plus that stage is gorgeous.

Now we haven't talked about ZSS is depth yet, but I'm getting some ideas... ZSS's blaster is like water shuriken in that she can't cancel and shoot it later, so it's easier to pocket a full blast and the benefit is stunning her which can be used for such great set-ups like a tree kill, an axe kill, a down-smash to up-smash kill, over the ledge you can go for a turnip spike, you can even just kill with a back-throw at high enough percents. Villager having the benefit of a stun and pinning down his opponent is quite nice.

But ZSS has a tricky recovery with down-b and tether. Plus her up-b can kill. But we can punish tether with bowling ball if we stayed on stage...

And on stage, it doesn't seem like ZSS has that many great approaches, I usually see her want to blaster, grab, up-air, up-air, up-b. With us keeping our space and launching gyroids to stop blasters and release us from grabs this seems like a weak plan of her. But her dash attack can punish our gyroid start-up and get us in the air. She has some nice aerials, but she does - as a character - want to keep you at a certain space for blasters and grabs so she isn't the most pressure heavy character. She won't be constantly face to face with you like Jigglypuff or even Diddy at times.

Ahh, I'm rambling haha. I wanna talk in-depth and see how we feel about her, but I'm just worried I'm rushing too much. Do most of us agree Villager vs Falcon is like 60:40ish?

I would agree.

Also no worries, lol, you make valid points (I have noticed you tend to be very vocal about your opinions tho xP)


Anyway, the sucky part about the ZSS matchup is that with her down B, gimping becomes nonexistant, and even a danger for us. Tho if you can plant a gyroid at the final point of her down B, it will have an active hitbox by the time she is there, and explode. However its not the easiest thing to pull off.

Also since the stungun moves so slow, its very easy to grab it and use it for ourselves. Most try to go for that + whipgrab, so since we pocket it, if we throw it back, we might even paralyze her as she brings us to her, making it even easier to punish~

I'd say the best option would be fsmash or dsmash to usmash.


BTW, against rushdown characters like her, Falcon, etc, running off the ledge and either using gyroid, or jumping back with a fair or bair, is often the best way to get some breathing room, as they often rush you down. Ive learned even running away from them and usng gyroid to turn around and launch it towards them, is also good for spacing, since if they arent careful, they will walk into its active hitbox.

 

[Sonsa]

I would agree.

Also no worries, lol, you make valid points (I have noticed you tend to be very vocal about your opinions tho xP)


Anyway, the sucky part about the ZSS matchup is that with her down B, gimping becomes nonexistant, and even a danger for us. Tho if you can plant a gyroid at the final point of her down B, it will have an active hitbox by the time she is there, and explode. However its not the easiest thing to pull off.

Also since the stungun moves so slow, its very easy to grab it and use it for ourselves. Most try to go for that + whipgrab, so since we pocket it, if we throw it back, we might even paralyze her as she brings us to her, making it even easier to punish~

I'd say the best option would be fsmash or dsmash to usmash.


BTW, against rushdown characters like her, Falcon, etc, running off the ledge and either using gyroid, or jumping back with a fair or bair, is often the best way to get some breathing room, as they often rush you down. Ive learned even running away from them and usng gyroid to turn around and launch it towards them, is also good for spacing, since if they arent careful, they will walk into its active hitbox.

60:40? Okay cool, thanks! Aha, yeah, sorry!

Yeah, her down-b can help her jump right over our walls and approaches and can even have a hitbox hat buries or spikes us. It has some start-up so if you can I recommend shielding and punishing. I'm not sure about the timing of when you can punish, but yeah, pushing her away and letting her know she can't do this is the way to go. Be aware of the space cause they'll wait for your start-up of gyroid. But if you stay aware and punish accordingly you'll be golden! Just also be aware of dash attack. I'd be really careful with gyroid in this matchup.

Otherwise, without thinking too hard on this and going on and on as usual, I'd guess this matchup is... 55:45... maybe even?
(Lil emotes just for me when scrolling to find this easier)
Edit: I would prefer platforms in this matchup though because down-b would be less of an answer and more of just an option.

 

[Darklink401]

Lol we really need to update the OP XP

I'd say its probably 55:45 in ZSS' favor, simply because her grab is godlike compare to ours, so she can really pressure us. Also her aerials come out fast.

 

[Sonsa]

Lol we really need to update the OP XP

I'd say its probably 55:45 in ZSS' favor, simply because her grab is godlike compare to ours, so she can really pressure us. Also her aerials come out fast.

YES, people have been coming in asking about stuff we've already covered because we don't really have any directory. If we're struggling on what our 1st page should look like take a peek at the Lucina Matchup thread, it is gorgeous! They have a chart but also below links to discussions organized by character, its beautiful. I've actually been keeping a matchup chart in microsoft paint just for me haha.

But yeah, I dunno, her grab is good, but when is she ganna go for it? She'll catch us when we start up a gyroid but get punished, she can read a roll but we're considering the matchup with just tools of the character and imaging very high-level play, I just think her grab will usually just get her punished instead of benifitting her. And even if we get grabbed, she doesnt have kill throws or anything, and the farther we are from her the better! The only notable thing she can get from this is a down-throw to forward air, I think thats a good true combo at most percents. Some will go for an up-b after this too, but it certainly isn't guaranteed and can earn quite the punish.

What are her kill options anyway? Down-B, Forward Smash, Up-B, um... back-air right?

 

[Darklink401]

Oh wow the Lucina one is SUPER organized.

I actually am a bit jealous, haha.

Why don't we have that? XD


Also ZSS can pretty much just kill with those, for the most part, though her usmash and I believe utit also kill.

BTW, most ZSS players I know, after they stun you, go for grab, then dthrow into like 2-3 uairs into up B. The up B isnt guaranteed but can be a true combo if they read your DI.

She doesnt have a killthrow, but she has a combo throw, which we dont have.


Also keep in mind Villager is more effective mid-range, and that that range, ZSS can easily close the distance.


If we count customs tho, Trip sapling change everything, and makes Villager's bad matchups into much much better matchups.


...
Except bloody megaman

 

[Sonsa]

Oh wow the Lucina one is SUPER organized.

I actually am a bit jealous, haha.

Why don't we have that? XD

Also ZSS can pretty much just kill with those, for the most part, though her usmash and I believe utit also kill.

BTW, most ZSS players I know, after they stun you, go for grab, then dthrow into like 2-3 uairs into up B. The up B isnt guaranteed but can be a true combo if they read your DI.

She doesnt have a killthrow, but she has a combo throw, which we dont have.

Also keep in mind Villager is more effective mid-range, and that that range, ZSS can easily close the distance.

If we count customs tho, Trip sapling change everything, and makes Villager's bad matchups into much much better matchups.
...
Except bloody megaman

I am super jealous, but understand if OP is busy or something! But hopefully it is something...on their radar, I guess...

Right, oh, up-smash could be trouble. Large disjointed range, could catch us setting up gyroid or something.

Yeah, that seems to be her B&B. It's a strong combo but air dodge or nair up-airs and DI properly (away I think, its been a while)
Well we can get grabs punishing her endlag on certain moves, and our forward throw has set knock-back that can be followed up with a slingshot.

She can, but her attempts can be punished rather easy too, she's got nice endlag on grab, d-air, dash attack, forward smash, down-b, blaster, etc.

I wouldnt give the advantage to her, her usual set-up/approach of blaster isn't very useful, but whereas Greninja makes up for a similar issue with less cool-down. ZSS has to commit a lil bit more.

Ah, I rarely talk customs cause of all the variables and possibilities, but the trip sapling could help a lot, force em in the air or to roll and you can punish accordingly.

 

[SoniCraft]

I am super jealous, but understand if OP is busy or something! But hopefully it is something...on their radar, I guess...

Right, oh, up-smash could be trouble. Large disjointed range, could catch us setting up gyroid or something.

Yeah, that seems to be her B&B. It's a strong combo but air dodge or nair up-airs and DI properly (away I think, its been a while)
Well we can get grabs punishing her endlag on certain moves, and our forward throw has set knock-back that can be followed up with a slingshot.

She can, but her attempts can be punished rather easy too, she's got nice endlag on grab, d-air, dash attack, forward smash, down-b, blaster, etc.

I wouldnt give the advantage to her, her usual set-up/approach of blaster isn't very useful, but whereas Greninja makes up for a similar issue with less cool-down. ZSS has to commit a lil bit more.

Ah, I rarely talk customs cause of all the variables and possibilities, but the trip sapling could help a lot, force em in the air or to roll and you can punish accordingly.

I'm pretty sure if somebody else makes a MU chart, Indigo would be happy to put it on the OP. I'd do it, but I don't really know how to make one :x.

 

[Sonsa]

I'm pretty sure if somebody else makes a MU chart, Indigo would be happy to put it on the OP. I'd do it, but I don't really know how to make one :x.

I tried, but I don't know either... How do ya make those lines? Those charts are using some kinda formatting and text. My personal chart is just a picture I draw on and use the text thing to put the numbers in the right boxes and stuff.

 

[Darklink401]

I'd be happy to make one as well XP

What are the MUs discussed so far?

 

[Sonsa]

I'd be happy to make one as well XP

What are the MUs discussed so far?

Well I looked through the entire thread for some results and stuff and what I saw was a lot of short good discussions, but before anything was agreed upon firmly someone else would show up and ask about Sheik or Mario again.

This is the chart Ive used, its just results I and others have agreed upon mostly. I usually try to say "what do you guys think?" and emphasize the resulting numbers to see if I'm on the right track or not. Its also just a pic but its all the characters (besides Z.Suit) that at least Ive talked about deeply. The numbers are just what I believe but the large majority are agreed by others.

Oh, and the reason some of the spacing is weird is cause it's just an edited version of the Rosalina Matchup Thread's matchup chart. I took a screencap and moved some stuff around.

 

[SoniCraft]

Well I looked through the entire thread for some results and stuff and what I saw was a lot of short good discussions, but before anything was agreed upon firmly someone else would show up and ask about Sheik or Mario again.

This is the chart Ive used, its just results I and others have agreed upon mostly. I usually try to say "what do you guys think?" and emphasize the resulting numbers to see if I'm on the right track or not. Its also just a pic but its all the characters (besides Z.Suit) that at least Ive talked about deeply. The numbers are just what I believe but the large majority are agreed by others.
View attachment 41566
Oh, and the reason some of the spacing is weird is cause it's just an edited version of the Rosalina Matchup Thread's matchup chart. I took a screencap and moved some stuff around.

Whoa now. A few changes I know others would agree with I can identify right off the bat. First off, Sonic is not 50:50. I'd say more 60:40 or 65:35. Catching the blue blur in order to net a kill on him is nigh impossible if the Sonic is playing correctly. I realized this as I was watching Player -1 playing a Sonic. Also, the xx.5's are a little confusing, so I think sticking to the 5 increment rule is better. I think we've also discussed Yoshi a decent amount and we all agree it's one of our tougher MUs: 60:40 or 65:35

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I really don't think Mario is in our favour... it just feels like such a gross MU. Full hopped Fireballs stuff aerial approaches hard, and he deals with our recovery options really easily. He can also really abuse Villager's problem with getting juggled because of his quick aerials. I just feel he can deal with us both up close and at ranges where Villager normally excels. His neutral game feels a lot better than ours too. I would say 35:65

 

[Sonsa]

Whoa now. A few changes I know others would agree with I can identify right off the bat. First off, Sonic is not 50:50. I'd say more 60:40 or 65:35. Catching the blue blur in order to net a kill on him is nigh impossible if the Sonic is playing correctly. I realized this as I was watching Player -1 playing a Sonic. Also, the xx.5's are a little confusing, so I think sticking to the 5 increment rule is better. I think we've also discussed Yoshi a decent amount and we all agree it's one of our tougher MUs: 60:40 or 65:35

But Player-1 agreed it was even :o We discussed it again a few pages back, but yeah Sonic is tough, but he has to approach, lots can be punished, and his recovery is nothing we can't handle. Plus gyroid can stop his spin dash and force a jump. Pinning him down is a challenge, but if you can rack up damage as to not get timed out and punish dash attack endlag or something to get him off-stage, you can finish him off in a few ways. Even his homing attack recovery is quite telegraphed and has endlag to punish. I get more in depth here http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-11#post-18557385 and others respond like Player-1 afterwards. Even AceStar3rd has some advice by hanging around ledges which I agree with.

Sorry about those xx.5's but this was my own personal one haha, if it was for all yall I'd change it, but just for me I wanna be super specific.

Yoshi I haven't talked about yet so I hadn't put anything, cause I dunno if I agree it's that bad. It is unfavorable but...I dunno, I wouldnt go passed 60:40, he doesnt shut us down in any way.

I really don't think Mario is in our favour... it just feels like such a gross MU. Full hopped Fireballs stuff aerial approaches hard, and he deals with our recovery options really easily. He can also really abuse Villager's problem with getting juggled because of his quick aerials. I just feel he can deal with us both up close and at ranges where Villager normally excels. His neutral game feels a lot better than ours too. I would say 35:65

Woaaah 35:65? He also doesn't shut us down really. Cape can be a problem, but- Well my thoughts are on the top of the last page(top of page 13). Cape can be annoying, and he can certainly keep up with us, but I think we have a much better off-stage game, and can keep him out of our face usually.

 

[SoniCraft]

I guess I stand corrected regarding the Sonic MU, but I still don't think it's even. Sonic only has to approach if he's losing. If Sonic is up a stock, you can bet your turnips that he won't be approaching, and that's when things get rough for us. Villager can't close space quickly, which makes chasing hard. This is the reason why fast characters can give Villager a headache at times. If Villager has the lead in the MU, then yeah Sonic has to approach. I just think Sonic has the kind of mobility that Villager really struggles against.

I also don't think we have the advantage against, Mario, but I don't think it's 65:35 either.

Do you think making some sort of poll would help this process or hurt it?

 

[Sonsa]

I guess I stand corrected regarding the Sonic MU, but I still don't think it's even. Sonic only has to approach if he's losing. If Sonic is up a stock, you can bet your turnips that he won't be approaching, and that's when things get rough for us. Villager can't close space quickly, which makes chasing hard. This is the reason why fast characters can give Villager a headache at times. If Villager has the lead in the MU, then yeah Sonic has to approach. I just think Sonic has the kind of mobility that Villager really struggles against.

I also don't think we have the advantage against, Mario, but I don't think it's 65:35 either.

Do you think making some sort of poll would help this process or hurt it?

That's true, I've been timed out before and was a little confused on why Sonic was just running until I saw the timer. He was only up by damage, I was trying to get some slingshots on him but I think Ive grown since then and yeah, he's tough to catch.

I think trying to catch up to Sonic is the wrong idea though... I think you want to set up a wall and the go near him so he has to run, but already have things waiting for him so it's unfavorable to run. Maybe gyroid, a tree thats been chopped once or a sapling that you've given almost all the water it needs, and cover the air with slingshots.

I need more matchup experience, but with the Sonic's Ive fought in online tourneys...they're speed is annoying, but we have a lot more active hitboxes than they do and spin dash has...well in the meta I think all of us haven gotten used to it more.

Um, I don't really like polls cause people can just pop in and make some claim. Talking about it helps people realize more and can even change their minds. Even I thought we had a strong advantage over Diddy before people disagreed and I got more matchup experience. I think if anyone has a claim like that in numbers they should explain themselves so we can agree or disagree and come closer to the truth.

And maybe Mario is even or something, I dunno, I'm always open for more discussion. I mean, I just don't think Mario deals with our recovery as well as Indigo Jeans suggests, but maybe they know something I don't.

 

[cree318]

Idk, I feel like Mario is not technically a bad MU, but it's just one of those characters that Villy just has to play differently against. Almost all of Mario's attacks are quick and his cape makes it tough to approach with aerials due to the fact that it can reflect and turn you around (which may cause you to miss). But Villy's tilts are great for creating space between him and Mario and can lead into follow ups like nair, dair, and uair. I think that by playing smart and setting traps for Mario, the MU would close. I'm still not sure whether there is an advantage to be had by either character or if it's an even MU, but it would be somewhere in the 45:55 - 55:45 range.

 

[Darklink401]

Marth vs Villager is NOT 50:50, lol. Marth and Lucina suffer SO much from slingshot XP its not even funny.
I'd say both Marth and Lucina should be around 60:40 at best.

Also I think Bowser Jr matchup can be rounded up to 60-40, or even 65-35. Not only can we steal the toy, but the clown kart makes BJ a super easy slingshot target, and its just overall not hard at all to fight him...from my experience. x.x haha

 

[Sonsa]

Idk, I feel like Mario is not technically a bad MU, but it's just one of those characters that Villy just has to play differently against. Almost all of Mario's attacks are quick and his cape makes it tough to approach with aerials due to the fact that it can reflect and turn you around (which may cause you to miss). But Villy's tilts are great for creating space between him and Mario and can lead into follow ups like nair, dair, and uair. I think that by playing smart and setting traps for Mario, the MU would close. I'm still not sure whether there is an advantage to be had by either character or if it's an even MU, but it would be somewhere in the 45:55 - 55:45 range.

Oh yeah, I discussed with you, didn't I? Yeah, well as it's my own personal chart I gave Villager the slight advantage just cause I think on-stage it's even and too dependent on the players, but off-stage I feel Villager can recover quite well against Mario avoiding fireball gimps and follow ups, and when Mario is off-stage Villager can gimp him a bit easily with a slingshot string or turnips.

Marth vs Villager is NOT 50:50, lol. Marth and Lucina suffer SO much from slingshot XP its not even funny.
I'd say both Marth and Lucina should be around 60:40 at best.
Also I think Bowser Jr matchup can be rounded up to 60-40, or even 65-35. Not only can we steal the toy, but the clown kart makes BJ a super easy slingshot target, and its just overall not hard at all to fight him...from my experience. x.x haha

Right, we discussed this on the previous page as well! I think I started shortly after the Mario discussions. But while we considered that yes, the slingshots are quite good, being at midrange against Marth is dangerous because imagine a short hop-slingshot. Marth could dash, dodging the hit, and tipper forward smash. The big thing about that match was Villager likes space, but Marth does too and kills earlier than Lucina with the tipper.

As for Bowser Jr, there is some tech to add super armor to the clown car, but gimping is even easier on other characters. I guess we shut down Jr's stage control (by stealing mecha-koopa) and most of his approaches. Not many people are taking advantage of Jr's potential, so at this point in time I guess I'd be willing to agree its a 65:35 matchup for us.

I'm really glad the thread is moving a lot now, at times I felt like I was talking into a void, but now my personal chart has sparked a lot of different discussions haha, I'm happy to discuss any of it with anyone, but yeah, I just wanna remind people that while I got some people to agree with me, discussions aren't closed or anything, my mind can still change and I'm just one person with not a lot of authority!

 

[Darklink401]

Oh yeah, I discussed with you, didn't I? Yeah, well as it's my own personal chart I gave Villager the slight advantage just cause I think on-stage it's even and too dependent on the players, but off-stage I feel Villager can recover quite well against Mario avoiding fireball gimps and follow ups, and when Mario is off-stage Villager can gimp him a bit easily with a slingshot string or turnips.

Right, we discussed this on the previous page as well! I think I started shortly after the Mario discussions. But while we considered that yes, the slingshots are quite good, being at midrange against Marth is dangerous because imagine a short hop-slingshot. Marth could dash, dodging the hit, and tipper forward smash. The big thing about that match was Villager likes space, but Marth does too and kills earlier than Lucina with the tipper.

As for Bowser Jr, there is some tech to add super armor to the clown car, but gimping is even easier on other characters. I guess we shut down Jr's stage control (by stealing mecha-koopa) and most of his approaches. Not many people are taking advantage of Jr's potential, so at this point in time I guess I'd be willing to agree its a 65:35 matchup for us.

I'm really glad the thread is moving a lot now, at times I felt like I was talking into a void, but now my personal chart has sparked a lot of different discussions haha, I'm happy to discuss any of it with anyone, but yeah, I just wanna remind people that while I got some people to agree with me, discussions aren't closed or anything, my mind can still change!

See the thing is, any Villager worth his weight will not slingshot Marth at a point where he could spotodge and tipper fsmash.

With just slingshot and lloid, Villager actually can destroy Marth, and there's not much Marth can do about it. He can shield and go in, but Villager also has the turnips, which are faster than Marth's attacks.

Also its EXTREMELY easy to kill Marth with Villager.

 

[Sonsa]

See the thing is, any Villager worth his weight will not slingshot Marth at a point where he could spotodge and tipper fsmash.

With just slingshot and lloid, Villager actually can destroy Marth, and there's not much Marth can do about it. He can shield and go in, but Villager also has the turnips, which are faster than Marth's attacks.

Also its EXTREMELY easy to kill Marth with Villager.

That's true... I do think Villager dominates Marth off-stage for sure as Marth really has no horizontal recovery other than a fully-charged shield breaker. But yeah, I remember recommending ledge trumping. I think that's a super strong option against Marth. So yeah, near the ledge or off-stage I think we have a pretty nice advantage. Maybe I was respecting the tipper too much. It's just, we start-up a gyroid and die at 60% I think, right? The tipper is strong. But I guess no Villager would really do that so close. Villager has pretty awesome start-up and cool down for his tilts though, I remember someone agreed with me that Down-Tilt is a good option.
Hmm... why did I think it was even...? Lemme check... *one check later* Ohh right, I originally wanted to give Villager the advantage, but wasn't willing to go as far as 55:45 so I rounded down to even cause we wanna keep it simple. @Zensay and @ Antonykun (hello! called ya here in case ya changed your minds) agreed at the time. Cause both characters have to be risky in this matchup. Both are rewarded for getting out of their comfort zone, but we all also agreed Villager has the advantage, but not by an increment of 5, so we all decided to keep it even.

Hmm... Well maybe we should go that extra increment of 5? I dunno, I really do think its like... 52:48ish... its really too dependent on the players, both havta be so on point, this is a very demanding match-up from both characters... Marth must be so patient, Villager must space near-perfectly... ahh I really wouldnt go as far as 60:40.

 

[Darklink401]

I mean, I really don't see how Marth is in any sort of advantage... hell, SHULK has a better matchup, at least HE has speed monado, lol.

Sure, Marth can kill us early, but we can kill HIM just as early, and he has to approach, something Villager is very good at preventing people from doing.

 

[Sonsa]

I mean, I really don't see how Marth is in any sort of advantage... hell, SHULK has a better matchup, at least HE has speed monado, lol.

Sure, Marth can kill us early, but we can kill HIM just as early, and he has to approach, something Villager is very good at preventing people from doing.

Well I said we had a bit more advantage over Shulk cause we can wait those modes out, but I agree Marth doesn't have the advantage. Villager is at a slight advantage, but you must be super mindful of your spacing. You want to be at a certain space against Marth, almost mid-range. You don't wanna just gyroid him to death. The problem is little slip up's can get you grabbed, tippered, or countered. There's not a lot of room for error. Cause some silly mistake could be your last. I agree we're at the advantage, but it isn't super significant. You havta be on point because if you didn't space something perfect you could be dead.

Maybe I'm respecting tipper too much, but... augh, it's so awkward cause yeah, I agree we have the advantage, but I'm just saying it's not free. Ya gatta earn that win. Don't go "Oh, I have the favorable matchup" cause you gatta play really good against an optimal Marth player. I dunno, I'm starting to doubt myself. I guess we haven't seen too many good Marth players anyway. I dunno, maybe it's 55:45 but beyond that no, Marth has the tools to punish Villager's tricks. He just has to be really patient.

 

[SoniCraft]

Well I said we had a bit more advantage over Shulk cause we can wait those modes out, but I agree Marth doesn't have the advantage. Villager is at a slight advantage, but you must be super mindful of your spacing. You want to be at a certain space against Marth, almost mid-range. You don't wanna just gyroid him to death. The problem is little slip up's can get you grabbed, tippered, or countered. There's not a lot of room for error. Cause some silly mistake could be your last. I agree we're at the advantage, but it isn't super significant. You havta be on point because if you didn't space something perfect you could be dead.

Maybe I'm respecting tipper too much, but... augh, it's so awkward cause yeah, I agree we have the advantage, but I'm just saying it's not free. Ya gatta earn that win. Don't go "Oh, I have the favorable matchup" cause you gatta play really good against an optimal Marth player. I dunno, I'm starting to doubt myself. I guess we haven't seen too many good Marth players anyway. I dunno, maybe it's 55:45 but beyond that no, Marth has the tools to punish Villager's tricks. He just has to be really patient.

Well you could say the same thing for the other side of the MU. Marth has to play near perfect in order to work around Villager's walls and setups. Let's try this line of logic:

We agree that Villager has an advantage, the only thing is it takes lots of precision to secure the advantage.

We also agree that Marth does NOT have the advantage, but he ALSO has to play with lots of precision in order to make sure he isn't overwhelmed.

Because of these two factors, we can conclude that Villager does indeed have an advantage in the MU. If both players are playing perfectly, then Villager should come out on top.

55:45 Villager's favor?

 

[Sonsa]

Well you could say the same thing for the other side of the MU. Marth has to play near perfect in order to work around Villager's walls and setups. Let's try this line of logic:

We agree that Villager has an advantage, the only thing is it takes lots of precision to secure the advantage.

We also agree that Marth does NOT have the advantage, but he ALSO has to play with lots of precision in order to make sure he isn't overwhelmed.

Because of these two factors, we can conclude that Villager does indeed have an advantage in the MU. If both players are playing perfectly, then Villager should come out on top.

55:45 Villager's favor?

Sure, I'm fine with that. It's just Zensay, Antonykun, and I agreed the advantage was so slight we'd havta round down. But alright, 55:45. And Lucina, is 55:45 good there? The only difference between them is the tipper, so she doesn't havta space perfectly, but can't kill as early. I think tipper is pretty important so if Marth is 55:45, should the Lucina matchup be 60:40? Maybe we should ask some Marth and Lucina players and get more help?

 

[Antonykun]

Oh wow the Lucina one is SUPER organized.

I actually am a bit jealous, haha.

Why don't we have that? XD


Also ZSS can pretty much just kill with those, for the most part, though her usmash and I believe utit also kill.

BTW, most ZSS players I know, after they stun you, go for grab, then dthrow into like 2-3 uairs into up B. The up B isnt guaranteed but can be a true combo if they read your DI.

She doesnt have a killthrow, but she has a combo throw, which we dont have.


Also keep in mind Villager is more effective mid-range, and that that range, ZSS can easily close the distance.


If we count customs tho, Trip sapling change everything, and makes Villager's bad matchups into much much better matchups.


...
Except bloody megaman

I say EBT is what makes the MUs better

 

[Darklink401]

Sure, I'm fine with that. It's just Zensay, Antonykun, and I agreed the advantage was so slight we'd havta round down. But alright, 55:45. And Lucina, is 55:45 good there? The only difference between them is the tipper, so she doesn't havta space perfectly, but can't kill as early. I think tipper is pretty important so if Marth is 55:45, should the Lucina matchup be 60:40? Maybe we should ask some Marth and Lucina players and get more help?

cough cough

I main Marth (right alongside Villager and Sheik) and I can use Lucina in friendlies (cuz of the character similarity)

XP Thats why I was debating it, because I know from experience that its PAINFUL to deal with Villagers as Marth and lucina, haha. I'd say 55:45 and 60:40 are good for Marth and Lucina, respectively.

@ Antonykun I say both, haha