Tournament viable character

[Kulty]

Hi everyone,

I've been questionning myself recently about this. What does it take to be a top or a high tier character in Smash Wii U? According to my personal top 15 characters in the game which are ,,,,,,,,,,,,,and , I want to find what do these characters have in common (along with some exceptions)? From what I can tell, they mostly have great mobility on the ground and great frame data in terms of startup, endlag and landing lag. Is there anything else in common between these characters? Other criteria needed in order to be considered as a top-tier or a high-tier character?

 

[xzx]

Speed in every area, being relatively safe (even by approaching), having good kill moves + the ability to land those kill moves reliably is something they have in common. Also, very few drawbacks of their moves in general. (This is something I quickly came to think of.)

 

[CommanderRin]

Good/Great Neutral game/Reward game

 

[Raijinken]

They're all either similar to Sheik, or hard for reckless players to approach safely.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

1. Excellent framedata
2. Very safe attacks
3. Is fast/Has great mobility
4. Easy followups, especially out of throws
5. Has either a strong kill move or a strong kill setup

 

[Kulty]

From all the criterias you guys mentionned, who do you think between all these 15 characters fit those points and aspects that make a top-tier or high-tier characters? Are there other characters that you guys would've added to the list?

 

[TheHypnotoad]

From all the criterias you guys mentionned, who do you think between all these 15 characters fit those points and aspects that make a top-tier or high-tier characters? Are there other characters that you guys would've added to the list?

Your list in the OP is pretty much perfect, to be honest.

 

[Fatmanonice]

For Smash games, top/high tier characters tend to have most of the following:

1. a reliable recovery and typically multiple recovery methods
2. multiple safe and reliable kill options
3. projectiles that can force approaches but aren't devastating if they're reflected
4. good reach for most moves
5. reliable grabs and throw set ups
6. either above average ground mobility, air mobility, or both
7. solid offstage options, including gimping/edgeguarding tools
8. an option that can fairly easily lead to early kills and/or a broken shield
9. typically have fast enough movement/attacks to be able to string attacks together
10. methods to deal with pressure both on the ground and in the air

 

[Kulty]

I was thinking of adding Pit, Dark Pit, Ryu and Wario to the list, because they seem pretty good characters to me that have potential to be high-tier or top-tier characters. What do you guys think of that?

 

[Wintropy]

I was thinking of adding Pit, Dark Pit, Ryu and Wario to the list, because they seem pretty good characters to me that have potential to be high-tier or top-tier characters. What do you guys think of that?

No.

Pit and Dark Pit have a diverse toolkit, great recovery and excellent grab grame, but that's about the extent of it. Their matchups are fairly neutral across the board, yet they struggle against top-tiers and have a few notable flaws that keep them (if you will pardon the pun) grounded:

- Recovery covers good distance, yet is easy to intercept
- Frame data isn't particularly impressive
- Not very many safe-on-shield options
- Struggle to deal with rushdown fighters

I can't say much for Ryu and Wario, though I know from experience that the Pits aren't high-tier. They don't excel at anything or have any truly crippling weaknesses, which keeps them consistently in the realm of mid / high-mid tier.

 

[Kulty]

No.

Pit and Dark Pit have a diverse toolkit, great recovery and excellent grab grame, but that's about the extent of it. Their matchups are fairly neutral across the board, yet they struggle against top-tiers and have a few notable flaws that keep them (if you will pardon the pun) grounded:

- Recovery covers good distance, yet is easy to intercept
- Frame data isn't particularly impressive
- Not very many safe-on-shield options
- Struggle to deal with rushdown fighters

I can't say much for Ryu and Wario, though I know from experience that the Pits aren't high-tier. They don't excel at anything or have any truly crippling weaknesses, which keeps them consistently in the realm of mid / high-mid tier.

Or at the very least, I believe Ryu and Wario have amazing potential, but in the case of Pit and Dark Pit, well, I can see why they are mid-tier, but I will put them top mid-tier.

 

[Wintropy]

Or at the very least, I believe Ryu and Wario have amazing potential, but in the case of Pit and Dark Pit, well, I can see why they are mid-tier, but I will put them top mid-tier.

Ryu and Wario definitely have potential, no argument here.

I just don't think the Pits are high-tier, much less top-tier, that's all.

 

[Kulty]

I think what sets Ryu back from other top or high tier characters is the fact his moves have a lot of hitlag, making them quite easy to punish. Also, the fact that he has poor range and lacks a kill throw. Besides of that, he has amazing potential due to :
- Amazing frame data
- Moves that can cancel the endlag (FA, dtilt, utilt, etc.)
- Surprisingly good recovery
- Good air speed. Decent dashing speed.
- Great combos (without really the need of throws except for dthrow) and kill setpus (Shroryuken OOS). That's about it in general. Might miss some things, but oh well.

Same goes for Wario. I don't know much about him, but he is a very solid character that I think deserve to have potential as a high-tier character.

 

[Oatmeal.]

I would say Wario is a high tier. Great recovery, above average aerials, lots of good kill moves, surprisingly good reach, some nice throws (forward and down),awesome tilts, the bike, and good gimping.

Two glaring issues with Wario are his slow speed and lack of good, reliable combos. This is why he can't be top tier, imo.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I think the idea that there's a basic "formula" to being high tier or tournament viable is flawed. A character is fully tournament viable if all three of the following are true:

-The character's overall match-up spread is more good than bad.
-The character doesn't get hard countered by any other character.
-No character who is mostly similar but superior exists.

If 1 is false, the character is garbage. If 2 is false but the other two are true, the character may be a good secondary but isn't viable as a main. If only 3 is false, the character will see almost no play in the metagame but irrational users of the character will do okay.

Specific character qualities really aren't needed. Obviously having good qualities (like fast frame data, high damage, good recovery, etc.) help make a character high tier since having advantaged match-ups does stem from being able to do and mitigate powerful things. However, no specific attribute is necessary; you just need to have an overall good set of attributes. The proof is really in the pudding; there are no substantial similarities between Rosalina and Fox yet both are clearly very good characters. Rosalina is slow but dominates space. Fox can barely control himself let alone space, but he's about as fast as they come. In a lot of ways, being different from other good characters is a plus; it gives a character more purity of purpose!

As per how many characters are viable in this game, which you didn't ask but your title implies, that's really hard to say. I'm pretty sure it's more than 15 characters though; every character you listed is obviously good, and it's not hard at all to assert many more who are good too. I think if the game was never patched again we'd probably settle on around 30, but it will get more DLC and more patches so we won't begin to become sure for a while yet.

 

[RunawayPanda]

In addition to what everyone else said, all these characters have a better control of neutral than the rest of the smash cast. They can also control the neutral much easier.
For example:
Luigi controls with neutral b and grab
Pikachu skips neutral with up b, but t jolt is also good
Sheik has needles
Fox's approaches are just dash attack and grab
The only exception on that list is mii brawler, since he is the only one with a weak neutral.

Also a lot of these characters have great frame data to support them in their attacks.

 

[HFlash]

I was thinking of adding Pit, Dark Pit, Ryu and Wario to the list, because they seem pretty good characters to me that have potential to be high-tier or top-tier characters. What do you guys think of that?

Wario is considered top 10 in Japan. His air game and dair --> fart combo among other things are so good.

In addition to what everyone else said, all these characters have a better control of neutral than the rest of the smash cast. They can also control the neutral much easier.
For example:
Luigi controls with neutral b and grab
Pikachu skips neutral with up b, but t jolt is also good
Sheik has needles
Fox's approaches are just dash attack and grab
The only exception on that list is mii brawler, since he is the only one with a weak neutral.

Also a lot of these characters have great frame data to support them in their attacks.

Mii Brawler neutral isn't too bad if you use the shot put correctly, plus he can approach with dash attack and grab (like Fox).

 

[Kulty]

Yeah, I can definitely agree with Mii Brawler not being top 15 imo (only relies on his Helicopter Kick, which kills freaking early). Did you guys see the new July tier list video from AceStarthe3rd? Here's the link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYbrQJ923r4. According to most people in the community, those are the top 15 in the game (in order) :
S : and
A+ : , and
A : , , , , and
A - : , , and . The two others in this list are and (not in top 15 though)

Do you guys agree with this? I mostly agree except for :

• ZSS, who I think is a little too high, and I think Ness deserves to take that spot along with Luigi and Pikachu. But it's understable, because of ZSS high placement at CEO. I would personally put her at top A and put Ness behind Pikachu.
• Yoshi : kinda question it, but I'm not sure about it. Maybe behind Fox (because the latter has better results)
• Mario : why? Why? Why? Mario hasn't been touched since the 1.0.4 update, and he's still a perfect character to me. I would put him at bottom of A tier rather than top of A- tier (maybe behind Diddy Kong), because players like Ally seems to do great stuff with him.
• Villager : I think he has the potential to be at the same level as Ness and Sonic, because he has one of the most effective playstyle against almost any character in the game. I think he deserves to be A tier, but don't know where?

Still a solid top 15 imo. Do you think that Roy, Ryu and Lucas have the criterias to be top or high tier? I can see for Roy especially and maybe Ryu, but as for Lucas, I don't think so!

 

[Ulevo]

I would add Wario, Meta Knight, Olimar and R.O.B. to that list.

 

[Kulty]

I would add Wario, Meta Knight, Olimar and R.O.B. to that list.

I can agree with Wario mostly. I kinda question it for MK and ROB, but I think they do have potential. As for Olimar, I'm sorry, but I don't see him being high or top-tier. Top of mid-tier is perfectly fine for him.

 

[warionumbah2]

Why question ROB and MK? ROB has been doing well for a while and MK is much stronger in default yet he places high in custom tournaments.

 

[Pazx]

ROB is so good until you realise he has disadvantageous matchups with like 10 of the most popular characters in the game. Conversely, Olimar does... someewhat better, allegedly, against most of these characters.

Also @ Kulty if you actually do look at some criteria to determine who is a top tier you'll probably find that is the odd one out in your list and is only considered good by some because he's new and shiny.

 

[Illuminose]

I would add Wario, Meta Knight, Olimar and R.O.B. to that list.

Something that I think is noticeable about all of the characters in this category (except Yoshi but I think the potential/capabilities of Yoshi are obvious, and DLC chars b/c time) is that they all have strong tourney rep. Sheik has the best player in the U.S. (ZeRo), best player in Japan (Rain), and best player in Europe as well as plenty of other players who can place well like False, Vinnie, and Nyanko. Rosalina has Dabuz primarily as well as players in different regions like Xaltis, Falln, and Rayquaza that tend to place well. Luigi has slightly weaker overall rep, but we've seen Mr ConCon do really well in SoCal (he's taken a set off ZeRo's Diddy and does well considering that Sheik vs Luigi is pretty crappy), Boss dominate MDVA, False perform well (he primarily plays Sheik, but his Luigi also does really well), and most recently Larry Lurr make it into CEO Top 8 using a lot of Luigi (in addition to his Fox, but still) to success. Pikachu has ESAM...that's enough on its own because of how great ESAM is. ZSS has Nairo, NickRiddle, and Choco. Ness has Shaky, Nakat, and FOW. Sonic has 6WX and StaticManny. Fox has Larry Lurr and Nietono. Diddy Kong has ZeRo and MVD. Mario has Ally and like a zillion other good players in their regions. Villager has Ranai (and ADHD I guess). Falcon has decent overall rep though I really think he should be in, like, B+ and not A- because he's overrated as all hell and has pretty poor matchups against characters like Rosalina, Sheik, and Pikachu while having more noticeable flaws in general than other characters in S/A.

What results do these characters have? Olimar has some but I don't think he's truly viable without a secondary. Murdered by Sheik (fair beats everything) and has losing matchups to other top characters like Mario, Pikachu, Sonic, and Fox. He also some pretty good matchups like Rosalina, Ness, and Villager, but I think his bad matchups are enough to keep him out of A tier. Meta Knight is good and actually has some pretty cool matchups like an arguably even matchup against Sheik and fairly even matchups overall (some even, some slight losses, some slight advantages) as well as a pretty damn good matchup against Rosalina...it's just that he lacks results outside of Ito (and Tyrant making Top 32 at CEO I guess) in relevant tournaments. I also feel that Meta Knight has to work a lot harder for results than other characters at this level, i.e. he gets nothing for free. The major components of this are that he lacks a projectile and solid/safe on-shield spacing options. Sure he can grab and dash attack through your shield, but he can't really get anything started if he isn't getting those dash attacks and grabs, which he can't really set up in any particular manner, unlike grab-based top tiers like Sheik, Luigi, and ZSS. I think Meta Knight is probably at the top of B+ along with Falcon, but I don't think he's worthy of A- or anything like that. Wario has this issue that he is utterly destroyed by Sheik, and he doesn't really have any truly dominant or favorable matchups against top tiers (mostly even or he loses slightly) to justify putting him in top tier. R.O.B. is really thoroughly a slightly above average character that doesn't really stand out that well from the high/mid high pack. Especially when you realize that he has some pretty garbage top tier matchups, like Sheik, Mario, Pikachu, ZSS, and Rosalina.

btw this is mine

S


A+


A


A-


B+

 

[warionumbah2]

"Boss dominate MDVA"

Other than Seagull Jo and Boss himself that region is free as ****.

 

[Ulevo]

ROB is so good until you realise he has disadvantageous matchups with like 10 of the most popular characters in the game. Conversely, Olimar does... someewhat better, allegedly, against most of these characters.

Also @ Kulty if you actually do look at some criteria to determine who is a top tier you'll probably find that is the odd one out in your list and is only considered good by some because he's new and shiny.

Who exactly does R.O.B. lose to out of the top and high tiers?

Something that I think is noticeable about all of the characters in this category (except Yoshi but I think the potential/capabilities of Yoshi are obvious, and DLC chars b/c time) is that they all have strong tourney rep. Sheik has the best player in the U.S. (ZeRo), best player in Japan (Rain), and best player in Europe as well as plenty of other players who can place well like False, Vinnie, and Nyanko. Rosalina has Dabuz primarily as well as players in different regions like Xaltis, Falln, and Rayquaza that tend to place well. Luigi has slightly weaker overall rep, but we've seen Mr ConCon do really well in SoCal (he's taken a set off ZeRo's Diddy and does well considering that Sheik vs Luigi is pretty crappy), Boss dominate MDVA, False perform well (he primarily plays Sheik, but his Luigi also does really well), and most recently Larry Lurr make it into CEO Top 8 using a lot of Luigi (in addition to his Fox, but still) to success. Pikachu has ESAM...that's enough on its own because of how great ESAM is. ZSS has Nairo, NickRiddle, and Choco. Ness has Shaky, Nakat, and FOW. Sonic has 6WX and StaticManny. Fox has Larry Lurr and Nietono. Diddy Kong has ZeRo and MVD. Mario has Ally and like a zillion other good players in their regions. Villager has Ranai (and ADHD I guess). Falcon has decent overall rep though I really think he should be in, like, B+ and not A- because he's overrated as all hell and has pretty poor matchups against characters like Rosalina, Sheik, and Pikachu while having more noticeable flaws in general than other characters in S/A.

What results do these characters have? Olimar has some but I don't think he's truly viable without a secondary. Murdered by Sheik (fair beats everything) and has losing matchups to other top characters like Mario, Pikachu, Sonic, and Fox. He also some pretty good matchups like Rosalina, Ness, and Villager, but I think his bad matchups are enough to keep him out of A tier. Meta Knight is good and actually has some pretty cool matchups like an arguably even matchup against Sheik and fairly even matchups overall (some even, some slight losses, some slight advantages) as well as a pretty damn good matchup against Rosalina...it's just that he lacks results outside of Ito (and Tyrant making Top 32 at CEO I guess) in relevant tournaments. I also feel that Meta Knight has to work a lot harder for results than other characters at this level, i.e. he gets nothing for free. The major components of this are that he lacks a projectile and solid/safe on-shield spacing options. Sure he can grab and dash attack through your shield, but he can't really get anything started if he isn't getting those dash attacks and grabs, which he can't really set up in any particular manner, unlike grab-based top tiers like Sheik, Luigi, and ZSS. I think Meta Knight is probably at the top of B+ along with Falcon, but I don't think he's worthy of A- or anything like that. Wario has this issue that he is utterly destroyed by Sheik, and he doesn't really have any truly dominant or favorable matchups against top tiers (mostly even or he loses slightly) to justify putting him in top tier. R.O.B. is really thoroughly a slightly above average character that doesn't really stand out that well from the high/mid high pack. Especially when you realize that he has some pretty garbage top tier matchups, like Sheik, Mario, Pikachu, ZSS, and Rosalina.

btw this is mine

S


A+


A


A-


B+

You cite characters like Pikachu "cause ESAM" and Rosalina "cause Dabuz" and yet Meta Knight does not have enough rep for high tier placement? Ito not only dominates his region but Has taken sets off of reputable players. The character lacks rep, yes, but no more than say Pikachu.

 

[Pazx]

Who exactly does R.O.B. lose to out of the top and high tiers?



You cite characters like Pikachu "cause ESAM" and Rosalina "cause Dabuz" and yet Meta Knight does not have enough rep for high tier placement? Ito not only dominates his region but Has taken sets off of reputable players. The character lacks rep, yes, but no more than say Pikachu.

ROB doesn't really "lose to" anyone aside from Sheik and maybe Pikachu but I'd say he's at a slight to moderate disadvantage in the following matchups:



Every top tier and then some, with the notable exception of Sonic. Only contentious points are vs Diddy (nerfs make this very manageable, but even/ROB's favour? Not sure) and Meta Knight (general consensus is that I'm wrong on this one but it's no better than even for ROB). If you consider the ROB matchup discussions you could add Pit(too) and Yoshi to this list although I have my doubts about the first.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Something that I think is noticeable about all of the characters in this category (except Yoshi but I think the potential/capabilities of Yoshi are obvious, and DLC chars b/c time) is that they all have strong tourney rep. Sheik has the best player in the U.S. (ZeRo), best player in Japan (Rain), and best player in Europe as well as plenty of other players who can place well like False, Vinnie, and Nyanko. Rosalina has Dabuz primarily as well as players in different regions like Xaltis, Falln, and Rayquaza that tend to place well. Luigi has slightly weaker overall rep, but we've seen Mr ConCon do really well in SoCal (he's taken a set off ZeRo's Diddy and does well considering that Sheik vs Luigi is pretty crappy), Boss dominate MDVA, False perform well (he primarily plays Sheik, but his Luigi also does really well), and most recently Larry Lurr make it into CEO Top 8 using a lot of Luigi (in addition to his Fox, but still) to success. Pikachu has ESAM...that's enough on its own because of how great ESAM is. ZSS has Nairo, NickRiddle, and Choco. Ness has Shaky, Nakat, and FOW. Sonic has 6WX and StaticManny. Fox has Larry Lurr and Nietono. Diddy Kong has ZeRo and MVD. Mario has Ally and like a zillion other good players in their regions. Villager has Ranai (and ADHD I guess). Falcon has decent overall rep though I really think he should be in, like, B+ and not A- because he's overrated as all hell and has pretty poor matchups against characters like Rosalina, Sheik, and Pikachu while having more noticeable flaws in general than other characters in S/A.

What results do these characters have? Olimar has some but I don't think he's truly viable without a secondary. Murdered by Sheik (fair beats everything) and has losing matchups to other top characters like Mario, Pikachu, Sonic, and Fox. He also some pretty good matchups like Rosalina, Ness, and Villager, but I think his bad matchups are enough to keep him out of A tier. Meta Knight is good and actually has some pretty cool matchups like an arguably even matchup against Sheik and fairly even matchups overall (some even, some slight losses, some slight advantages) as well as a pretty damn good matchup against Rosalina...it's just that he lacks results outside of Ito (and Tyrant making Top 32 at CEO I guess) in relevant tournaments. I also feel that Meta Knight has to work a lot harder for results than other characters at this level, i.e. he gets nothing for free. The major components of this are that he lacks a projectile and solid/safe on-shield spacing options. Sure he can grab and dash attack through your shield, but he can't really get anything started if he isn't getting those dash attacks and grabs, which he can't really set up in any particular manner, unlike grab-based top tiers like Sheik, Luigi, and ZSS. I think Meta Knight is probably at the top of B+ along with Falcon, but I don't think he's worthy of A- or anything like that. Wario has this issue that he is utterly destroyed by Sheik, and he doesn't really have any truly dominant or favorable matchups against top tiers (mostly even or he loses slightly) to justify putting him in top tier. R.O.B. is really thoroughly a slightly above average character that doesn't really stand out that well from the high/mid high pack. Especially when you realize that he has some pretty garbage top tier matchups, like Sheik, Mario, Pikachu, ZSS, and Rosalina.

btw this is mine

S


A+


A


A-


B+

as good as ? worse then ? THAT HIGH? is NOT that good. You're nuts.

 

[Illuminose]

as good as ? worse then ? THAT HIGH? is NOT that good. You're nuts.

They're in order...as in Pikachu is worse than Sheik and Rosalina. Pikachu is definitely deserving of a higher spot on the tier list than ZSS; that isn't some absurd thought. It's actually a very common opinion to put Pikachu higher than ZSS...he's in pretty much everyone's Top 4, so I don't really see the problem with this. Pikachu has a much better head-to-head against Sheik and less noticeable flaws (mostly ZSS's bad grab which is exploitable by shield). I can explain why Pikachu is amazing if you really want, but I think it's pretty intuitive if you look at the character and have watched ESAM play. Villager's strong zoning game, devastating traps, and dominant edgeguarding make him a pretty intuitive pick to put at the bottom of A-. None of these things you've said are uncommon opinions, so I really don't see how I'm insane.

 

[Kulty]

as good as ? worse then ? THAT HIGH? is NOT that good. You're nuts.

Seagull, did you check out how good a Villager is? He can stop almost any playstyle in the game. Also, how do you find your tier placement for your boy Sonic? I think he's in a pretty good spot for now.

 

[Ulevo]

ROB doesn't really "lose to" anyone aside from Sheik and maybe Pikachu but I'd say he's at a slight to moderate disadvantage in the following matchups:



Every top tier and then some, with the notable exception of Sonic. Only contentious points are vs Diddy (nerfs make this very manageable, but even/ROB's favour? Not sure) and Meta Knight (general consensus is that I'm wrong on this one but it's no better than even for ROB). If you consider the ROB matchup discussions you could add Pit(too) and Yoshi to this list although I have my doubts about the first.

I know many Meta Knights consider R.O.B. 4:6 in R.O.B.'s favor.

What are the R.O.B. mains take on this? @HolyNightmare @ Mister Eric

 

[Mister Eric]

I know many Meta Knights consider R.O.B. 4:6 in R.O.B.'s favor.

What are the R.O.B. mains take on this? @HolyNightmare @ Mister Eric

Will respond soon

 

[Kulty]

ROB is so good until you realise he has disadvantageous matchups with like 10 of the most popular characters in the game. Conversely, Olimar does... someewhat better, allegedly, against most of these characters.

Also @ Kulty if you actually do look at some criteria to determine who is a top tier you'll probably find that is the odd one out in your list and is only considered good by some because he's new and shiny.

Well, true, but I believe that Roy has that potential to be a high-tier character. Sure, we only have him for about a month, so they are still work to be done. At the very least, to be very safe, I would put him bottom high-tier or high mid-tier.

 

[Ulevo]

I think it's pretty even. Just because of the punishes you get on our recovery, off of up air strings, how easy we are to hit.
MK stays at our pseudo blind spot when he's in the air. Cool we have lasers, just dodge it.
Lucky for ROB, we have some nice ways to kill MK when he messes up.
Mis-spaced dashattack = upsmash OoS
Whiffed offstage attack = my turn to hurt you.
Missed up b, nado, down b w/ attack = potential death.
Also you're light.
I think ROB box's MK out better too.

Idk seems pretty back and forth to me.
Those are my rough thoughts on it.

Hope this helps!

Sorry, I meant the other matchups you guys apparently do not win.

 

[Mister Eric]

Sorry, I meant the other matchups you guys apparently do not win.

Lmao. I suck. I thought this was another MK question obv. I'll get back to you soon
-hides in embarrassment-

 

[RunawayPanda]

Who exactly does R.O.B. lose to out of the top and high tiers?



You cite characters like Pikachu "cause ESAM" and Rosalina "cause Dabuz" and yet Meta Knight does not have enough rep for high tier placement? Ito not only dominates his region but Has taken sets off of reputable players. The character lacks rep, yes, but no more than say Pikachu.

These tier lists should be based of rep and character data. Ito has no where near the placing of esam and dabuz. Pikachu has plenty of good players using him, but no one else but esam close to the top level. Nakat has a pretty good pika. Also meta knight does not have as many good match ups as pika or rosa. He just doesn't have enough going for him to be high tier