Top 10 worst moves in Smash 4?

[MarioMeteor]

After watching ESAM's video on this very subject, I thought it sounded like a fun idea for a thread, so here we are.

Rules: Only one move per character, so you can't fill the entire list with Jigglypuff or Little Mac. Also, no custom moves, as those could make an entirely different list.

To start off, here's mine, in no particular order:

#10: Jigglypuff's up smash: It was a toss up between Sing, down smash, and up smash for this spot. In the end I chose the latter, because I couldn't think of a reason to use this painfully slow and weak attack. At the very least, successfully landing Sing or down smash could net you an early kill. This move? You get nothing. You lose. Good day, sir.

#9: Little Mac's up air: It's no secret that Little Mac's aerials are horrendous, but all of them have some kind of niche use. Neutral air breaks combos, down air jab lock, forward air and back air can do something akin to edgeguarding, but up air? Have you ever seen a Little Mac use up air? Like, I could understand if the move juggled, but it's so slow that it can't even do that.

#8: King Dedede's down air: As with Jigglypuff, I had to choose between three of Dedede's moves (if you can call them that): down air, up tilt, and Jet Hammer. Up tilt, while useless, is at least relatively harmless to throw out, and Jet Hammer is very strong, and will probably take a stock if charged enough. Down air, on the other hand, is disgustingly slow and the reward for landing it is miniscule at best, as the spike hitbox is tiny and every other hitbox isn't nearly strong enough to make up for how goddamn hard the move is to land.

#7: Pac-Man's grab: Speaking of moves with too much risk and not enough reward... Pac-Man already has some below average throws, so why is his grab so bad? What solidifies this as gutter trash is the fact that its deceiving. After the active frames of the move end, you're more than welcome to walk right into the Galaga beam, nary a hitch, and punish Pac-Man.

#6: Ganondorf's Volcano Kick: Who decided that a move slower and weaker than Warlock Punch would be a good idea? Who looked at this frame 70-something move and thought, "Yes, this isn't a waste of programming?" You're probably not even landing this move in a 4 player FFA.

#5: Clown Cannon: Between the bad hitbox and god awful frame data, I can't think of a single reason why you would ever use this move. This could very well be the worst projectile in the game.

#4: Something of Palutena's: Here's where my own rule came back to bite me in the ass, because I honest to God cannot choose between the pieces of trash that are some of Palutena's special moves. Autoreticle, Heavenly Light, Counter, there's no way I could make this choice.

#3: Samus's jab: You can actually get punished for landing this move. You can get punished for landing Samus's jab. I think that speaks for itself.

#2: Din's Fire: This move is the reason why I said that Clown Cannon is "very well" the worst projectile in the game. It leaves Zelda wide open while she's casting it, the projectile itself isn't even that fast, it doesn't explode on contact, and it leaves Zelda helpless for whatever reason. Why couldn't she get the actual canon version of this move?

#1: PK Flash: This one is kind of like Volcano Kick and Din's Fire put together. Why would you use this agonizingly slow and horribly telegraphed projectile when you have PK Fire, which is superior in just about every way? Outside of For Glory, of course.

Dishonorable mentions: Hammer Flip, Falco's down air, Wii Fit Trainer's down tilt, Fire Fox, Dark Dive, Green Missile, the Hero-Kings' down airs, Egg Roll.

Now it's your turn.

 

[GeflGabe]

Tbh, I found Puff's up air to work in several situations in the past and Falco's Dair is one of my favorite spikes.
For me, I only really hate is Samus's move set (I know it's just my taste but I... do not like using Samus.) and Megaman's jab.
That's just my opinion though. Also Marth's down airs are indeed, laughably bad, but can be used in useful ways. I also played PacMan a bit this morning. His grab made me go "yuck" at first use.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Marcina's Down Air isn't entirely useless. It's slow and has a ton of landing lag, but at the very least has a lot of disjointed range, covers even both of your sides, and is very highly damaging if you hit it, along with having lots of hitstun. But it's definitely their worst aerial even if just by process of elimination, since their Neutral, Back, Forward and Up Air are all excellent.
I thought about Palutena's Side Tilt for contender of one of the worst tilts in the game. It's slow, low damaging, hard to land and very unrewarding in general.

 

[Espyo]

Eh, iunno. I don't agree with most of these. I can't be bothered to think of a list of my own, but I can tell you why I don't agree with them.

Jigglypuff's up-smash is bad, but not one of the worst. It has a fairly standard hitbox, startup and end lag aren't amongst the worst, damage and knockback are okay, but not horrible.

Dedede's down-air is bad, but it can beat Ness's out of the water. Has a larger hitbox, and slightly smaller startup lag (at least it feels like it).

Volcano Kick is kinda meant to be a joke attack, right? Some sort of humiliation. Even with that aside, it CAN be used a bit effectively for edge-guarding. If you time it right, the explosion will happen just as your opponent is about to snap on the ledge. For opponents with predictable recoveries, this can mean a stock.

Din's Fire isn't quite meant to be used as a projectile as much as it is meant to be used as a remote hitbox. I've seen it being used creatively so wonderfully, and even besides that, it's a goodish tool to pressure from afar.

PK Flash is brutally destructive sometimes. I use it every once in a while against opponents who are recovering, and just like Volcano Kick, if you can time it right, it's almost a guaranteed KO. Its range is quite large, and can hit opponents that are close to the edge, but not quite snapped yet (or during the ledge snap vulnerability frames). Even if not for that, it can be used as a great pressuring tool. Either your opponent is too relaxed, and they soon realize they've made a horrible mistake, or they fear the explosion and you can use that to condition their recovery.

I get that changing some of these would interfere with your "one move per character" rule, so they can't just be swapped out easily. Even still, some of these are getting a bit of a poor rap.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Jigglypuff's up-smash is bad, but not one of the worst. It has a fairly standard hitbox, startup and end lag aren't amongst the worst, damage and knockback are okay, but not horrible.

It's pitifully weak for how slow it is, it doesn't have invincibility on her head like it's far superior cousin, and in general why would go for up smash when up tilt is much faster and just about as strong?

Dedede's down-air is bad, but it can beat Ness's out of the water. Has a larger hitbox, and slightly smaller startup lag (at least it feels like it).

Ness's down air comes on frame 20, is active for two frames, and has 18 frames of landing lag. Dedede's is frame 22, is active for one frame, and has 20 frames of landing lag.

Volcano Kick is kinda meant to be a joke attack, right? Some sort of humiliation. Even with that aside, it CAN be used a bit effectively for edge-guarding. If you time it right, the explosion will happen just as your opponent is about to snap on the ledge. For opponents with predictable recoveries, this can mean a stock.

You'd be better off going for a back air or a down tilt to catch the two-frame. Just about every option you can think of would be better than Volcano Kick.

it's a goodish tool to pressure from afar.

Unless you simply roll, air dodge, or sidestep through it.

PK Flash is brutally destructive sometimes. I use it every once in a while against opponents who are recovering, and just like Volcano Kick, if you can time it right, it's almost a guaranteed KO. Its range is quite large, and can hit opponents that are close to the edge, but not quite snapped yet (or during the ledge snap vulnerability frames). Even if not for that, it can be used as a great pressuring tool. Either your opponent is too relaxed, and they soon realize they've made a horrible mistake, or they fear the explosion and you can use that to condition their recovery.

Remember that I said "outside of For Glory."

Even still, some of these are getting a bit of a poor rap.

Gee, I wonder why?

 

[Phenomiracle]

#2: Din's Fire: This move is the reason why I said that Clown Cannon is "very well" the worst projectile in the game. It leaves Zelda wide open while she's casting it, the projectile itself isn't even that fast, it doesn't explode on contact, and it leaves Zelda helpless for whatever reason. Why couldn't she get the actual canon version of this move?.

Din's Fire is most definitely trash, indisputable garbage, as in anyone who gets hit by Din's is bad and should feel bad, but the canon Din's Fire doesn't really have its place in this game:

Nayru's Love functions in a similar way already for Zelda.

A few Zeldas believe that Din's needs a design overhaul, I believe a simple retooling should be enough:

-Remove the freefall effect. There's absolutely no reason that Din's should render Zelda helpless in midair. Both Sheik's flash grenade and Ness's PK Flash are somewhat understandable, since the short-release wall that they create is large and they have potential for big damage, but Din's is nowhere near as large or as powerful both in the short and long releases.

-Attach active hitboxes to the fire trail prior to the explosion. For all the nerfs this already bad move had from Brawl to Smash 4, this compensates for quite a bit.

 

[Fruitalicious]

As a Dedede main, I can safely say that utilt isn't worthless. It has a massive hitbox, some of which is disjointed. It's quick enough, it does damage, and combos into itself at low percentages. Jet Hammer also has its niche uses, as an edgeguard with Gordo. His worst move is definitely dair, but I think you gave Jet Hammer and utilt too little credit.

 

[ExiaPilotDedede]

As a Dedede main, I can safely say that utilt isn't worthless. It has a massive hitbox, some of which is disjointed. It's quick enough, it does damage, and combos into itself at low percentages. Jet Hammer also has its niche uses, as an edgeguard with Gordo. His worst move is definitely dair, but I think you gave Jet Hammer and utilt too little credit.

I have more usage for Dair than Jet Hammer. Jet hammer get's poke stopped too easily, Dair takes a good hard read to use, but if you get used to how other characters recover low, it's actually decent as a fast fall option kill option off stage. Jet hammer on the other hand, while it can be useful as a an edgeguard, I've found that it's knock back is so bad that Bair or Fair will kill more reliably without the nasty end lag that often results in me dying from not being able to jump quickly enough after a jet hammer.

I think another candidate for worst move is Dedede's landing crash down after Super Dedede jump, while the recovery is great to the ledge, it's almost useless to land on stage with it. It can just be shielded and then you're punished, and even if they don't shield, the knockback and hitstun is so small that you can usually be punished anyway even after a solid hit. I wish it broke shields like Bowser's Down B

Utilt is actually useful since at 0% on large characters it's a great string out of down throw. Some of the cast doesn't go high enough for UAir at low percents, so I can sometimes land a DThrow -> UTilt -> short hop -> UAir.


On a side note, PK flash does have use! In doubles when your teammate is G&W

 

[Fruitalicious]

I have more usage for Dair than Jet Hammer. Jet hammer get's poke stopped too easily, Dair takes a good hard read to use, but if you get used to how other characters recover low, it's actually decent as a fast fall option kill option off stage. Jet hammer on the other hand, while it can be useful as a an edgeguard, I've found that it's knock back is so bad that Bair or Fair will kill more reliably without the nasty end lag that often results in me dying from not being able to jump quickly enough after a jet hammer.

I think another candidate for worst move is Dedede's landing crash down after Super Dedede jump, while the recovery is great to the ledge, it's almost useless to land on stage with it. It can just be shielded and then you're punished, and even if they don't shield, the knockback and hitstun is so small that you can usually be punished anyway even after a solid hit. I wish it broke shields like Bowser's Down B

Utilt is actually useful since at 0% on large characters it's a great string out of down throw. Some of the cast doesn't go high enough for UAir at low percents, so I can sometimes land a DThrow -> UTilt -> short hop -> UAir.


On a side note, PK flash does have use! In doubles when your teammate is G&W

As for dededes landing up b, it's useful as a recovery mixup. Fly past the land so the crash hits right next to them, kills real early and catches most off guard. also, it completely smashes shields if they have a tiny bit of damage

as for utilt out of dthrow, just go for turnaround bair out of dthrow. does most damage and is a true combo, while not leaving you open

 

[ExiaPilotDedede]

As for dededes landing up b, it's useful as a recovery mixup. Fly past the land so the crash hits right next to them, kills real early and catches most off guard. also, it completely smashes shields if they have a tiny bit of damage

as for utilt out of dthrow, just go for turnaround bair out of dthrow. does most damage and is a true combo, while not leaving you open

Oh yeah, I know all about the applications for up-B crash down off the ledge, I even did a write up on it in the D3 tech thread. You can also use it to bury opponents on the ledge if you time it right.
Not to get too off topic here, but d throw -> utilt is a great opener and it gets a few % without staling Bair but it doesn't link passed 5% or so.

OT: I think Palutena's auto-erectile dysfunction is one of the worst moves in the game. Her custom 2 should really be her default imo.

 

[Wintermelon43]

MarioMeteor You're a Jigglypuff main. You should know better than to say that her up smash is worse than Sing and Rollout.

Also, King Dedede's dair sucks, but Jet Hammer defitenly sucks even more. There is actually no reason to use Jet Hammer. Samus's Jab isn't one of the worst moves in the game either; You're not supposed to use jab 2, you're supposed to use jab 1 as a combo starter.

And, okay, Fire Fox sucks, yea, big contender for top 10 worst moves in the game. In fact, if it's so bad, you minds as well not use it. Have fun recovering!

(Also, does Pac-Man Grab even count? It's not exactatly an attack)

 

[MarioMeteor]

MarioMeteor You're a Jigglypuff main. You should know better than to say that her up smash is worse than Sing and Rollout.

I can think of one situation where I would use Sing, and one to two situations where I could use Rollout. I can't do that for up smash. Why in the name of Jigglypuff would you ever up smash?

Samus's Jab isn't one of the worst moves in the game either; You're not supposed to use jab 2, you're supposed to use jab 1 as a combo starter.

Exactly my point. The fact that the jab doesn't work is what got it a spot on my list.

(Also, does Pac-Man Grab even count? It's not exactatly an attack)

The name of the thread is "Top 10 worst moves in Smash 4" so yes, it does count.

 

[Azneli]

Majority of Jigglypuff's moves lol.

 

[Lord Dio]

I'd like to argue some of the honorable mentions aren't as bad as you imply. Wizard's foot to dark dive is a legitimate option for recovering low when offstage and extremely high up. Green Missile is like a luigi version of Quick Draw, and is good for horizontal recovery.

As for worst, it's pretty hard to choose any single one of Palutena's specials.
As to why one would use PK Flash: So your opponent can run up and KO you by using Counter on it, of course!

 

[NimbusSpark]

I can honestly kind of agree with Pac-Man's grab being one of the worst moves, or at least the worst grab in the game, although I have to say pretty much the only reason why its so poor in the game is just because the hitboxes aren't even consistent with the entire animation. I feel as if Pac-Man had it buffed/fixed, or if it was changed to a run of the mill grab, Pac-Man would actually be a significantly better character. Maybe going from mid-low to mid-high tier just from one single change.

Also, I'm not 100% sure about Fire Fox being bad overall. Especially since Falco's version of the move is actually significantly worse as both an offensive tool and a recovery move.

 

[Floor]

worst moves in no order
1. Sing
2-6 All of LittleMacs airs
7. DK's down B
8. Palu's autoreticle

And Marcina's Dair isn't that bad. It's their worst aireal, but if you're good, spiking with it is fairly common. It's another edge guarding option at their disposal but unsafe on the stage in the neutral. It has it's uses.

Dins fire isn't THAT bad either. Putting Zelda in fall special is trash, but it helps Zelda do something for edge guarding and can be a mix up in the neutral against spammers like Link, Tink, and Spamus. Top 10 worst moves? Maybe. I could see it and won't refute it. But not top 5 worst.

 

[Axel311]

- Dedede's Jet hammer
- Jigglypuff sing
- Gannon warlock punch
- Any Little Mac aerial
- Zelda djinn fire
- Kirby hammer
- Wario jab
- Palutena's auto reticle
- Puff rollout
- falcon punch

 

[Crystanium]

I make Samus' jab look good. Oh, you have no idea how annoying I can be with that just by poking.

 

[MarioMeteor]

But not top 5 worst.

Read the OP again.

- Dedede's Jet hammer
- Jigglypuff sing
- Gannon warlock punch
- Any Little Mac aerial
- Zelda djinn fire
- Kirby hammer
- Wario jab
- Palutena's auto reticle
- Puff rollout
- falcon punch

First, thank you for using the thread as intented. Second, why Wario's jab?

 

[Floor]

Read the OP again.

First, thank you for using the thread as intented. Second, why Wario's jab?

Wasn't really referring to the OP or that list. It's just a hated move and I don't think it is bottom 5. Was just saying that in general

 

[Dreemurr The Dreamer]

you have no idea how many PK Flashes and Volcano Kicks i have landed in fights.

 

[wedl!!]

Dins fire isn't THAT bad either. Putting Zelda in fall special is trash, but it helps Zelda do something for edge guarding and can be a mix up in the neutral against spammers like Link, Tink, and Spamus. Top 10 worst moves? Maybe. I could see it and won't refute it. But not top 5 worst.

Who is letting you hit them in neutral with it? Or recovering into it? In a zoning war, why wouldn't you just Nayru's?

Din's reward is pathetic for how risky and easy to avoid it is. It isn't worth using within any 1v1 situation unless you're just playing for jokes and fun.

 

[Axel311]

Read the OP again.

First, thank you for using the thread as intented. Second, why Wario's jab?

There's no reason to ever use it because Wario dtilt is a better option always. The two moves have smilar range but wario dtilt comes out at an earlier frame and less cooldown, plus combos into itself and into grab. And even if you do use jab, the 2nd hit often doesn't connect and even if it does the damage is still terrible for such a slow and low range jab.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

PK Flash is bad but it has situational uses.

If a opponent recovers high and often with a straightforward move like bike or monkey flip you can deal great damage with a partial charge PK Flash read.

Now while it's almost always a better idea to ledge guard with PK Thunder or Fire or just go off stage your self with aerials against characters with bad recoveries like or there is really only one way they can go, a well timed Flash if your fast enough can get you a kill.

Another option you have with it is forcing people to recover low which you can use to your advantage harassing with PK Thunder's tail does this better but it's another option.


I also vaguely remembering reading you can true combo into no charge PK flash but idk why you would do that ever

It's a bad move but not the worst imo

 

[Arrei]

PK Flash is bad but it has situational uses.

If a opponent recovers high and often with a straightforward move like bike or monkey flip you can deal great damage with a partial charge PK Flash read.

Now while it's almost always a better idea to ledge guard with PK Thunder or Fire or just go off stage your self with aerials against characters with bad recoveries like or there is really only one way they can go, a well timed Flash if your fast enough can get you a kill.

Another option you have with it is forcing people to recover low which you can use to your advantage harassing with PK Thunder's tail does this better but it's another option.

I don't know about that. It's so ungodly slow, anyone who likes to use the same recovery option would still have all the time in the world to just... not keep doing the same option. Even characters with exploitable recoveries like Cloud have mixup options at their disposal to use their recovery move earlier than expected and drift to the ledge from above while you're still stuck releasing the Flash.

 

[MajinBuu272]

worst moves in the game?
almost olimar's entire being if he has no pikmin, literaly all you can do is n-air and recover

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I don't know about that. It's so ungodly slow, anyone who likes to use the same recovery option would still have all the time in the world to just... not keep doing the same option. Even characters with exploitable recoveries like Cloud have mixup options at their disposal to use their recovery move earlier than expected and drift to the ledge from above while you're still stuck releasing the Flash.

Obviously that's why I said its situational. No one should be recovering the same way but if you notice a pattern like Diddy's going high with Monkey Flip to wavebounce banana or popgun you can anticipate and catch it with PK Flash. You have better options to punish these bad recovery habits almost always but you can use the Flash which is a lot more than some other moves in the game like Din's Fire which has little use whatsoever. That's why I don't think it's the worst the game but it's definitely one of them

 

[Arrei]

Well, what I meant there was, I don't think it even has that situational use. Even if you notice a pattern, PK Flash needs to be started so early to get it into position that if you try to capitalize on it using PK Flash no one with a brain is going to keep up their pattern and go right into it.

 

[Metalbro]

DK's down B

Untrue. Handslap has some situational uses.

-can be used to cover normal get up, roll get up, and get up attack and their ledge counterparts.
-can cover landing options when used towards the end of a stage
-can trap people in shield and breaks shields in like 3-4 slaps.

Its overall a great tool to use when you condition your opponent to choose grounded defensive options. It adds a long ranged grounded option and adds tremendous pressure in a short amount of time. Aerial version is pretty bad but can be b-reversed for unexpected spikes. I honestly feel like this move has more uses compared to DKs side b which is mainly to break shields

also gonna share a secret dk tip. it destroys villagers tree immediately.​

 

[Floor]

Untrue. Handslap has some situational uses.

-can be used to cover normal get up, roll get up, and get up attack and their ledge counterparts.
-can cover landing options when used towards the end of a stage
-can trap people in shield and breaks shields in like 3-4 slaps.

Its overall a great tool to use when you condition your opponent to choose grounded defensive options. It adds a long ranged grounded option and adds tremendous pressure in a short amount of time. Aerial version is pretty bad but can be b-reversed for unexpected spikes. I honestly feel like this move has more uses compared to DKs side b which is mainly to break shields

also gonna share a secret dk tip. it destroys villagers tree immediately.​

I mean it's just my opinion. Every move has situational uses. DK isn't high on the tier list anyway and mainly relies on air moves and grab combos.

 

[Axel311]

DK handslap is a solid mixup option when your opponent has some shield damage. It's a situational move but it does have some use, DKwill uses it well. It's not near the worst move in the game, there's plenty with no practical use at all in 1v1.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

It just feels that TC has trouble differentiating moves that he doesn't like/can't find uses for from moves that are objectively bad.

#9, I have: myself when I use Little Mac. People avoid like the plague landing near Mac most of the time because of his strong anti air options but Up Air is viable as well to keep them in the air and forcing people into a defensive maneuver such as air dodging and/or using their double jump since you are applying pressure near the ground.

#6, Volcano Kick isn't even useless. It adds to Ganon's good repertoire of edgeguarding moves; yes, I know he can go for his other options but going off stage is not always the most optimal case for him depending on who he is facing and sometimes it pays off to space yourself between the edge and catch your opponent with it before they grab or when they get on the stage. Not to mention that it can shield break quite easily which nets you a huge reward.

#4, You are having trouble choosing between Autoreticle, Counter and Heavenly Light? Seriously? Counter does just what every other move of that nature does and Autoreticle does manage to accomplish basic projectile function provided you space yourself well. Heavenly light does no knockback and leaves you wide open for a counter attack with little to no reward except for a couple of %, thus making it not worth it at all.

#3, Samus's Jab1 has a lot of utility and can chain from and to several of her moves. You can land a falling Uair into Jab1, you can also Jab cancel into Dtilt for a true combo as well. This video explains it's functions better:

I will even say that Down Smash is a far more inferior move since it has so little knockback and you'll be relying on her Jabs more for follow ups.

7. DK's down B

Ok, what? What the what? Literally, just what? Did I just read that right?

Hand Slap is an excellent tool that covers a wide area in front and behind DK, limiting your opponent's options while on the ground such as rolling and potentially allowing you to break your opponent's shield. MetalBro explained it better than me anyways.
Saying that his Down B is bad is not a matter of opinion, but an incorrect assessment since you are doing so while being unaware of it's properties and utilities as we listed above. At best it is an uninformed opinion because you are underselling it due to your lack of understanding of the move in question when pretty much every DK main can attest it's value. Don't try to say that a move is bad when you still lack proper knowledge of what it can do and when there is group of knowledgeable people standing behind it that can and will refute that statement with no problems. I just wish people would stop saying "it's just my opinion" when they know they are wrong.

All Mac's aerials

Despite Little Mac's reputation for having a bad recovery, his repertoire of aerials his actually decent. Depending on percentage, Dtilt leads to Fair which can potentially lead into another Dtilt to Fair; Fair can also be followed up with another Fair. The low angle at which Fair sends the opponent may not allow them to tech in time which can lead into FSmash or Dair reset. Both Fair and Bair are also decent edgeguarding options and Nair serves it's purpose to escape some combos and occasionally drag down opponents with you which has utility on and off stage.

I don't have a problem with this kind of topics existing but I have problem when people try to say that X move is bad when it's clear that they don't even use the respective character and thereby have no clue of what they are talking about, so they end up spreading misinformation even if it isn't deliberate.

 

[Floor]

It just feels that TC has trouble differentiating moves that he doesn't like/can't find uses for from moves that are objectively bad.

#9, I have: myself when I use Little Mac. People avoid like the plague landing near Mac most of the time because of his strong anti air options but Up Air is viable as well to keep them in the air and forcing people into a defensive maneuver such as air dodging and/or using their double jump since you are applying pressure near the ground.

#6, Volcano Kick isn't even useless. It adds to Ganon's good repertoire of edgeguarding moves; yes, I know he can go for his other options but going off stage is not always the most optimal case for him depending on who he is facing and sometimes it pays off to space yourself between the edge and catch your opponent with it before they grab or when they get on the stage. Not to mention that it can shield break quite easily which nets you a huge reward.

#4, You are having trouble choosing between Autoreticle, Counter and Heavenly Light? Seriously? Counter does just what every other move of that nature does and Autoreticle does manage to accomplish basic projectile function provided you space yourself well. Heavenly light does no knockback and leaves you wide open for a counter attack with little to no reward except for a couple of %, thus making it not worth it at all.

#3, Samus's Jab1 has a lot of utility and can chain from and to several of her moves. You can land a falling Uair into Jab1, you can also Jab cancel into Dtilt for a true combo as well. This video explains it's functions better:

I will even say that Down Smash is a far more inferior move since it has so little knockback and you'll be relying on her Jabs more for follow ups.



Ok, what? What the what? Literally, just what? Did I just read that right?

Hand Slap is an excellent tool that covers a wide area in front and behind DK, limiting your opponent's options while on the ground such as rolling and potentially allowing you to break your opponent's shield. MetalBro explained it better than me anyways.
Saying that his Down B is bad is not a matter of opinion, but an incorrect assessment since you are doing so while being unaware of it's properties and utilities as we listed above. At best it is an uninformed opinion because you are underselling it due to your lack of understanding of the move in question when pretty much every DK main can attest it's value. Don't try to say that a move is bad when you still lack proper knowledge of what it can do and when there is group of knowledgeable people standing behind it that can and will refute that statement with no problems.

Despite Little Mac's reputation for having a bad recovery, his repertoire of aerials his actually decent. Depending on percentage, Dtilt leads to Fair which can potentially lead into another Dtilt to Fair; Fair can also be followed up with another Fair. The low angle at which Fair sends the opponent may not allow them to tech in time which can lead into FSmash or Dair reset. Both Fair and Bair are also decent edgeguarding options and Nair serves it's purpose to escape some combos and occasionally drag down opponents with you which has utility on and off stage.

I don't have a problem with this kind of topics existing but I have problem when people try to say that X move is bad when it's clear that they don't even use the respective character and thereby have no clue of what they are talking about, so they end up spreading misinformation even if it isn't deliberate.

I mean im not spreading misinformation. Im stating my opinion and i think the moves i outlined aren't great. You're welcome to your own opinion as i am to mine.

Also, it's not like i can play every character. If i were asked to create a list of what i think are the top 10 worst moves, I'd do so, picking moves from ANY character, not just the ones I play.

I understand you feel differently about my opinion, but I don't like how you call it "spreading misinformation" or that i "have no clue what I'm talking about". It's my opinion. Do i play the characters? I used to play a little DK. But no, I can't play the whole roster and thus "know what I'm talking about".

You came off pretty harsh for me saying that i think Down B is a bad move for DK.

I just wish people would stop saying "it's just my opinion" when they know they are wrong.

Am i wrong? There is no definitive answer to what exactly the top 10 worst moves are or else this thread wouldn't exist. If you disagree, that's fine, but don't treat me like an ignorant uninformed child. I was asked what the worst moves are and that is what i came up with. I will continue to have this view until you or someone else can satisfy me with a reason why it is not a bad move.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Also, it's not like i can play every character. If i were asked to create a list of what i think are the top 10 worst moves, I'd do so, picking moves from ANY character, not just the ones I play.

The problem with doing that is that you run the risk of making a false or incorrect statement due to lacking important details. It is always recommended for people to oughta inform themselves before talking about a subject in particular or refrain from doing so when they aren't properly informed. You are not expected to play every character but before saying which move is bad, do your research of your own or just go to their respective boards where knowledgeable people can give you a better impression about it. I'm sorry if I sounded harsh but I just think people should do their homework about the subject matter at hand.

Am i wrong? There is no definitive answer to what exactly the top 10 worst moves are or else this thread wouldn't exist. If you disagree, that's fine, but don't treat me like an ignorant uninformed child. I was asked what the worst moves are and that is what i came up with. I will continue to have this view until you or someone else can satisfy me with a reason why it is not a bad move.

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-can be used to cover normal get up, roll get up, and get up attack and their ledge counterparts.
-can cover landing options when used towards the end of a stage
-can trap people in shield and breaks shields in like 3-4 slaps.

Its overall a great tool to use when you condition your opponent to choose grounded defensive options. It adds a long ranged grounded option and adds tremendous pressure in a short amount of time. Aerial version is pretty bad but can be b-reversed for unexpected spikes. I honestly feel like this move has more uses compared to DKs side b which is mainly to break shields

Also,

Watch the entirety of those matches against Sonic and Diddy Kong. They contain good examples of the usage of Hand Slap. In the first example in particular you can see DKwill limiting M2K's movement and approach options with it and he ends up taking the second stock thanks to a shield break. Go to the DK boards as well where a large group of people can attest for the utility of it. If you still feel the same despite the evidence presented then there is really nothing else I can tell you.

 

[Floor]

The problem with doing that is that you run the risk of making a false or incorrect statement due to lacking important details. It is always recommended for people to oughta inform themselves before talking about a subject in particular or refrain from doing so when they aren't properly informed. You are not expected to play every character but before saying which move is bad, do your research of your own or just go to their respective boards where knowledgeable people can give you a better impression about it. I'm sorry if I sounded harsh but I just think people should do their homework about the subject matter at hand.


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Also,

Watch the entirety of those matches against Sonic and Diddy Kong. They contain good examples of the usage of Hand Slap. In the first example in particular you can see DKwill limiting M2K's movement and approach options with it and he ends up taking the second stock thanks to a shield break. Go to the DK boards as well where a large group of people can attest for the utility of it. If you still feel the same despite the evidence presented then there is really nothing else I can tell you.

Got a chance to speak to some people in the DK Discord. To the two people I spoke with, Hand Slap is great against grounded fighters like Sonic and Little Mac, but somewhat unused against air fighters or mixed up playstyle. Also, in regards to the videos you linked and just in general, Hand Slap may be able to get a hit in, but it leaves DK vulnerable. I didnt get any cold hard stats from those videos, but M2Ks Sonic was able to punish Hand Slap at least once.

While all of this has showed me that Hand Slap isn't quite as bad as I thought and that Hand Slap has some decent applications against part of the roster, I still think the move isn't great overall. Top 10 worst? .... Perhaps not... But I still think it is poor overall considering the punish-ability and its limited applications. (I'm also not really considering throws when I think of top 10 worst moves. I know very little about the throws of characters I don't main, with a few exceptions). The gentlemen I spoke with in the DK Discord where saying DK's Dthrow was his worst move. I don't know anything about his Dthrow other than that Cargo Throw leads into Ding Dong, thus making DK's other throw options unused.

Having Metalbro here outline why he thought Hand Slap wasn't top 10 worst didn't Satisfy me. Seeing 2 actual DK mains discuss their habits usage of Hand Slap did Satisfy my reasoning. You have to understand that, if I listened to everyone who challenged my views/opinions and adopted their views in place of mine, I wouldn't be a person. I'd be a gullible fool who changed their minds every day; I need to weigh arguments until I am satisfied that the challenging view is the view I wish to adopt. Having one person tell me something isn't always enough; I need re-enforcement from a few people who I trust know what they're talking about (DK mains) over one person I found on the internet who can list the benefits of using a move. I could have listed the benefits; a DK main can tell me if the benefits are practical and outweigh the risks.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Got a chance to speak to some people in the DK Discord. To the two people I spoke with, Hand Slap is great against grounded fighters like Sonic and Little Mac, but somewhat unused against air fighters or mixed up playstyle. Also, in regards to the videos you linked and just in general, Hand Slap may be able to get a hit in, but it leaves DK vulnerable. I didnt get any cold hard stats from those videos, but M2Ks Sonic was able to punish Hand Slap at least once.

While all of this has showed me that Hand Slap isn't quite as bad as I thought and that Hand Slap has some decent applications against part of the roster, I still think the move isn't great overall. Top 10 worst? .... Perhaps not... But I still think it is poor overall considering the punish-ability and its limited applications. (I'm also not really considering throws when I think of top 10 worst moves. I know very little about the throws of characters I don't main, with a few exceptions). The gentlemen I spoke with in the DK Discord where saying DK's Dthrow was his worst move. I don't know anything about his Dthrow other than that Cargo Throw leads into Ding Dong, thus making DK's other throw options unused.

Having Metalbro here outline why he thought Hand Slap wasn't top 10 worst didn't Satisfy me. Seeing 2 actual DK mains discuss their habits usage of Hand Slap did Satisfy my reasoning. You have to understand that, if I listened to everyone who challenged my views/opinions and adopted their views in place of mine, I wouldn't be a person. I'd be a gullible fool who changed their minds every day; I need to weigh arguments until I am satisfied that the challenging view is the view I wish to adopt. Having one person tell me something isn't always enough; I need re-enforcement from a few people who I trust know what they're talking about (DK mains) over one person I found on the internet who can list the benefits of using a move. I could have listed the benefits; a DK main can tell me if the benefits are practical and outweigh the risks.

You are taking this way too out of context. I'm not telling you to sacrifice your own beliefs and individuality and become part of the hivemind, but to make an informed assessment before sharing your opinions, which is extremely important.
You already did the prudent thing and informed yourself further by pursuing the subject at hand, and you came out more knowledgeable than before. My gripe was with outlining Hand Slap as DK's worst move and one of the worst in the game without prior knowledge when it's far from that, since it clearly has utility and should be used albeit wisely. I agree with Dthrow being the worst move of his set since it has no utility for comboing or killing unlike the other throws.