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Toon Link's Grab Reward

JesterJaded

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Not sure if this has been posted before, but has anyone found any sort of combo viability or really any sort of reward at all with Toon Link's throws? I haven't hit the lab in a while but from what I remember playing him, early grabs were always used just to beat shield and condition my opponent to shield less often (ex. feinting a dash grab but going in with a SH Zair, shield, etc.) as opposed to any legitimate means for racking up damage. U-throw seems like it might have something, has anyone tested that? Or do we just have the worst grab in the game?
 

Shrokatii

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Sometimes uthrow can string into uair, and dthrow you can get a bair, nair or a fair if they airdodge

The only noticible reward he gets is his bthrow obviously which kills
 

JesterJaded

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Sometimes uthrow can string into uair, and dthrow you can get a bair, nair or a fair if they airdodge

The only noticible reward he gets is his bthrow obviously which kills
Well... That's rather discouraging. I love B-throw to death, but killing at 130% or so is a crummy trade-off for a tether grab :/

Can we footstool out of U-throw and get anything out of that, maybe at really low percents? Sorry I can't really test these things right now lol.
 

Shrokatii

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I haven't actually ever tried it, but I don't think you can. Maybe if they airdodge and suffer the landing lag you can, other than that the bkb is probably too high. Only way is to get an airdodge read I'd say :/
 

JesterJaded

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I haven't actually ever tried it, but I don't think you can. Maybe if they airdodge and suffer the landing lag you can, other than that the bkb is probably too high. Only way is to get an airdodge read I'd say :/
Well if you ever get the chance to test it I'd love to know. I've been practicing my PK Love for Lucas since he came out and I'll probably switch to maining him in tournaments, and getting those footstool shenanigans is the most satisfying thing in the world, but I miss my favorite ****** in the green leotard. It's just. Beating shields is such a struggle.
 

Shrokatii

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Sure. I only have the chance to test it in training mode atm and I couldn't pull it off at various percents, I'll have to get a friend to test it with airdodges.

But yes, it's unfortunate that its pretty hard to beat shields other than the threat of bthrow
 

JesterJaded

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Sure. I only have the chance to test it in training mode atm and I couldn't pull it off at various percents, I'll have to get a friend to test it with airdodges.

But yes, it's unfortunate that its pretty hard to beat shields other than the threat of bthrow
Exactly. Our projectile game is fantastic, but it doesn't mean anything on a tournament level if our opponent shields for days and our only answer is a measly 10-or-so-% off a grab, disregarding read airdodges because #justjump. We can frame trap and limit options with the boomerang return, sure, but a smart player will retreating jump OoS and up-thrown bombs are very telegraphed. Everything else about Toon Link can stay as is, but he's crippled without grab reward below 100% imo...

Edit: what percent range could you pull it off at?
 
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HeroOfWinds

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Toon has no combo throws, accept this. best throw to do onstage is uthrow to get them in the air for frame ttrap airdodge reads with Toon's godlike uair. or if they are on ledge fthrow to get them offstage to go for (again airdodge read) fair for a quick kill.

I will tell you what I do. my combo throw is utilt. Seriously. utilt to uair is GUARANTEED until around 100%. Dont believe me, hit the lab and try it. utilt to uair is a TRUE COMBO
 

JesterJaded

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Sure. I only have the chance to test it in training mode atm and I couldn't pull it off at various percents, I'll have to get a friend to test it with airdodges.

But yes, it's unfortunate that its pretty hard to beat shields other than the threat of bthrow
Toon has no combo throws, accept this. best throw to do onstage is uthrow to get them in the air for frame ttrap airdodge reads with Toon's godlike uair. or if they are on ledge fthrow to get them offstage to go for (again airdodge read) fair for a quick kill.

I will tell you what I do. my combo throw is utilt. Seriously. utilt to uair is GUARANTEED until around 100%. Dont believe me, hit the lab and try it. utilt to uair is a TRUE COMBO
Therein lies the problem though, if you know about Tink's abysmal grab game then a smart player will jump every time. Something like that will only work once, and only on someone who doesn't know the match up as well as they should ._.

I didn't know about Utilt > Uair, thanks for that one. It seems like Utilt basically wrecks fast fallers.
 

HeroOfWinds

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Nah see I get grabs for free because I condition my opponents to shield because they are scared of my bombs. Then I simply flick the c stick up to throw bomb and immediately grab and uthrow and they fly into the bomb.
 

JesterJaded

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Nah see I get grabs for free because I condition my opponents to shield because they are scared of my bombs. Then I simply flick the c stick up to throw bomb and immediately grab and uthrow and they fly into the bomb.
I'm not saying that getting the grab itself is hard, it's the grab reward that's the issue here. If your opponent's shielding all of your projectiles or just everything in general and countering with OoS options, then you really have no choice but to go for the risky, laggy tether grab that only nets you about 10%. Let's give Tink the benefit of the doubt and say we somehow net 40% off of traps or punishes; we'd still have to break neutral 6 or 7 times with a risky grab just to get to Bthrow kill percent. Compare this to the grab reward from Luigi and ZSS, and you'll see why this is a jarring weakness for Toon Link.

I like the idea of Up-thrown bombs, though they can be difficult to pull off if the opponent catches on and keeps their distance.
 
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mistercupter

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Have been looking for a thread like this! When someone shields a lot, two jabs and a grab to down throw is what I use, but I have trouble capitalizing off of it.
 

HeroOfWinds

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Down throws angle is terrible. Never use down throw ever. Always go with up if bthrow won't kill. At least they go in the air for juggling
 

Theis

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here's my personal take on TL's throws...

Fthrow-
at mid percentages it puts opponents into a stun/tumble state that can only be avoided if they DI up or if they're light enough to avoid the wake up situation (like jiggs) which means depending on character weight the opponent has 1 of 2 options which is to jump or tech. this puts them at sort of a wake up situation in which you just have to read what they do correctly. if they dont tech or tech in place you can punish with an up smash or upB (i would shoot an arrow to tap check their wake up before committing to any hard reads). if they jump you just fair their jump (check with boomerang before committing to hard reads). at low percentages it puts you in enough frame advantage to harass them with a boomerang or arrow and if you throw the opponent off stage at low percentages you could setup for a dair spike should they choose to challenge you from below the ledge with some aerial. at higher percentages you use it to reset stage control by throwing them off stage.

Bthrow-
I dont recommend staling this move at low percentages but it can net kills if your opponent is careless by again challenging you from under the edge with an attack. typically you want to keep this move fresh until about 120% before you start fishing for back throw kills.

Uthrow-
Mid to low percentages leads into uair which can lead into uair traps if your opponent is too careless. at higher percentages its an airdoge bait move for your uair with even the sour spot killing as early as 110% near the top. just be sure to follow your opponent's DI as they fall *(easier said than done).

Dthrow-
This throw's follow ups are better for uair baits than up throw for two reasons, the height that opponents get launched at makes it easier for Uair to reach. and because of the angle of the throw its much easier to guess where they want to go especially if its threatening your opponent's stage control. from the down throw you obviously know your opponent has 2 options which is to either dodge or jump (option 3 would be flips or a counter so keep that in mind) which at that point its best to empty jump to check how they react and then make a read on the following down throw. if they jump you jump with them and uair, if they dodge you just uair in them and follow their DI or late uair to get the sweet spot
 

HeroOfWinds

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^very good. But really dthrow is pretty much a waste of time for now... maybe we will get buffed and get links dthrow.... they fixed his after all...
 

JesterJaded

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^very good. But really dthrow is pretty much a waste of time for now... maybe we will get buffed and get links dthrow.... they fixed his after all...
^This is what I'm hoping for. Sakurai took away our advanced tech but otherwise left Tink ignored save for slight tweaks in frame data + miscellaneous. Why can't we get the Link treatment :(
 

JesterJaded

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except our bombs no longer hurt us at close range... this is godlike
Yes. It's beautiful. Praise the Bombo Combos.

You know what would be amazing? Is if we could grab with a bomb in hand. I'd take just about any hard nerf if we could U-throw > bomb > any aerial. I think we deserve it at this point.

Speaking of which, has anyone U-throwed next to a bomb, grabbed it, then followed up? I think that could make for some interesting traps at least.
 

HeroOfWinds

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If you are proficient with bombs then your opponent will already be shielding more, so all I do is fake out with a bomb by throwing it up while they shield and immediately tether grab them and uthrow them into the bomb
 

JesterJaded

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If you are proficient with bombs then your opponent will already be shielding more, so all I do is fake out with a bomb by throwing it up while they shield and immediately tether grab them and uthrow them into the bomb
Yes you've mentioned that, but the setup is rather obvious, and if it were me in the match-up I'd at least steer clear from the bombs vertical range considering - surprise - bombs are godly and will get me combo'd like nobody's business.

A bomb on the stage floor has more subtlety though, and different (and possibly more) uses. It won't intimidate the opponent into spacing it out and waiting for openings, won't accidentally hit you and make YOU combo food, won't limit your own space to zone like you absolutely have to do, and is a free bomb when you need it. Grabbing the bomb themselves is also tempting for the opponent, which luring them in for the grab is what you want from this sort of setup.
 

HeroOfWinds

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I think you have it mistaken. Our bombs dont hurt us ONLY if they are thrown and hit an opponent or their sheild and explode. a C4 bomb exploding hurts us all the same
 
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JesterJaded

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I think you have it mistaken. Our bombs dont hurt us ONLY if they are thrown and hit an opponent or their sheild and explode. a C4 bomb exploding hurts us all the same
I'm aware of that, and I don't see your point. Does this make something I said inapplicable?
 

HeroOfWinds

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A bomb on the stage floor has more subtlety though, and different (and possibly more) uses. It won't intimidate the opponent into spacing it out and waiting for openings, won't accidentally hit you and make YOU combo food, won't limit your own space to zone like you absolutely have to do, and is a free bomb when you need it. Grabbing the bomb themselves is also tempting for the opponent, which luring them in for the grab is what you want from this sort of setup.
you literally said a bomb on the floor wont hit you and make you combo food... it still will...

honestly leaving bombs on thefloor is more effort than its worth
 

JesterJaded

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you literally said a bomb on the floor wont hit you and make you combo food... it still will...

honestly leaving bombs on thefloor is more effort than its worth
My apologies, I should have been more specific: it shouldn't hit you OUT OF NOWHERE because you forgot about it or were combo'd into it. The bomb is there in plain sight and you can see when it will go off, it's not constantly moving for you to mispace it, etc. You have to admit that this happens even in tournament play all the time.

I'm not saying you should make the stage a mine field, but it can be a potentially lethal setup for when you have breathing room like ending a stock, knocking someone offstage, or even after U-throw if you don't feel confident in your reads or have a bad air game matchup.
 
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HeroOfWinds

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If you have bad air game, you shouldn't be using Toon Link. He has one of the best air games out of all the fighters
 

Theis

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So is Shulk's and Ike's Dair, other characters have escape options like Sheik, ZSS and Diddy, even counters can beat Uair. Uair is far from infallible.
it is not impossible but it's much more risky for ike or shulk to challenge a meaty Uair considering if put into that situation the only way they can beat it is if they can start it just above toonlink without touching the sword which is pretty hard to do. as for flips, you obviously dont go after characters with flip kicks because they just have better air mobility. and counters are a given thing to watch out for
 

JesterJaded

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as for flips, you obviously dont go after characters with flip kicks because they just have better air mobility. and counters are a given thing to watch out for
Precisely, this was the point I was making when suggesting time frames to use C4. We have a small chance of following up on these characters (if they know the Tink meta) so at the very least an initial grab can setup C4 and improve our general amount of options once neutral resets.

I'd really like to know what we can do with U-throw > C4 bomb grab, but unfortunately I still can't test ><
 

HeroOfWinds

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C4 is next to useless. trust me dont bother with it. with a 6 second timer you are just giving your opponent a free bomb to pick up. and are you kidding me?! uair destroys flip kick and flip jump moves. lmao. It's like you never play Toon in tournaments
 

Theis

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C4 is next to useless. trust me dont bother with it. with a 6 second timer you are just giving your opponent a free bomb to pick up. and are you kidding me?! uair destroys flip kick and flip jump moves. lmao. It's like you never play Toon in tournaments
to catch a flip with uair it have to be a late flip because i guarantee there's nothing toonlink can do other than to throw a bomb in the air if ZSS does a flip high enough in the air especially with a jump still available. although diddy kong and sheik are a different story since their flips are inherently more horizontal.
 
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JesterJaded

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to catch a flip with uair it have to be a late flip because i guarantee there's nothing toonlink can do other than to throw a bomb in the air if ZSS does a flip high enough in the air especially with a jump still available. although diddy kong and sheik are a different story since their flips are inherently more horizontal.
^this. So much this. At the very least against Sheik and Diddy you'll have to do a hard read out of three different options - airdodge, flip, or jump. I'd rather reset and build an advantage in the neutral against these characters than risk getting juggled because of Uair. We'll have to agree to disagree here.

Edit: perhaps even a fourth option - double jump > flip. Can we even catch that?
 
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Artmastercorey

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If you have bad air game, you shouldn't be using Toon Link. He has one of the best air games out of all the fighters
Perhaps in the air he's good, but i think he has some of the worst landing lag too which almost negates/overshadows the air mobility in my opinion but he is good
 
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ShadowKing

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Dthrow to bair or Nair is a good option to start the match up
 
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LunarWingCloud

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Much as I love Toon Link, forward throw feels absolutely useless. I've made some use of uthrow for uair like many people said, and back throw to offstage guarding can work, but good luck finding anything else really.
 

Dre89

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With regards to low percent dthrow, I was thinking about buffering a pivot after the animation. So you immediately turn around and can try catch an airdodge with fair. I suppose it'd also let you zair or do more random stuff like ff into a jab or dsmash.
 

Moobussir

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Recently I've been gaining success off of approach mixups with bomb in hand and preparing to grab.
Let's say I've conditioned my opponent to shield whenever I approach them with bomb in hand and they bring up shield. I can throw bomb up and grab them and potentially u-throw them into bomb. However I have found much more success by d-throwing.
You have two options when you prepare the d-throw. You can wait for the bomb to land on the ground and throw them down, letting the explosion of the bomb hit them for 8%, with the 7% of d-throw this does a great 15%. I've also d-throwed them sooner, letting D-throw throw them into the bomb for 4%, which knocks them back towards me, potentially landing U-air, F-air, B-air, N-air, whatever you want. Without followup, you still get 11%, the same as if you u-threw them.
And if you want to mix up your approach even further if you keep getting these d-throw combo's, you could run to them with bomb in hand and jump back with boomerang as your defense, seeing if they dropped shield to approach you.
I think there's a ton of potential in this. I might post this in Meta Advancement if no one has written it yet (Still catching up on that thread)

PS, The whole "Waiting after grab for bomb" for u-throw doesn't work quite as well as d-throw. D-throw keeps your opponent in the same consistent position for longer, where up-throw they fluctuate in height, and if you mis-time u-throw, your opponent can DI away before the bomb hits you and it'll just end up hitting you. And you don't get as many followups if your bomb hits them after the throw anyway, since they've been hit so far up already.
 
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