<Toon Link's Damage>

[Kaffei]

I'm not updating this anymore because TL boards are zzzzzzzzz.


To test every thing I have so far on the list, I went into regular brawl on Final Destination, and used a move 3 times in a row, while recording how much damage it did each time. Then I killed both characters to refresh everything & tested the next move.
The damage goes from Fresh to 1st hit after fresh(stale1) to 2nd hit after fresh(stale2).. I don't know why I stopped at 3 hits, lol.

Jab
Jab Combo : 10>9>8
Tilts
Forward : 9>8>8
Up : 9>8>8
Down : 9>8>7
Smashes
Forward : 24>20>18
Forward Charged : 32
Up : 15>14>12
Up Charged : 20
Up; back hitbox : 10>9>8
Down : 17>16>13
Aerials
Forward : 13>12>10
Up; Initial hitbox : 14>13>11
Up; Lingering hitbox : 12>11>10
Neutral : 10>9>8
Back : 10>9>8
Down; Initial hitbox with pogo hit : 16+9>14+7>12+7
Down; Lingering hitbox with pogo hit : 13+9>11+7>10+7
Down; Initial hitbox w/o pogo hit : 16>14>13
Down; Lingering hitbox w/o pogo hit : 13>12>10
Boomerang
Right in front : 11>10>9
1 roll away : 11>10>9
2 rolls away : 8>7>7
3 rolls away : 8>7>7
Coming back : 3>2>3
Bombs
Up close : 5>5>4
1 roll away : 6>5>5
1 Full Hop Z-Drop : 5>5>4
Double Full Hop Z-Drop : 7>7>5
REALLY, REALLY close Z-Drop : 2>3>2
1 Full Hop throw : 7>7>5
Double Full Hop throw : 7>7>5
Arrows
No charge : 4>3>4
Spin Attack
No charge : 12>11>10
Full charge : 20>17>14
Grabs
Forward : 7>6>6
Up : 7>6>6
Down : 7>6>6
Back : 7>6>6
Pummel : 2>1>2
Z-Aerial
4>4>4; Z-Air always inflicts 4% damage.

Roll Reference

1 Roll away

2 Rolls away

Information on move refreshing​

its 9 moves not 10 moves and multi hit attacks act as 1 refresh not multiple.

each hit on the forward smash diminishes but if you hit with both it acts as 1. So if you have a completely fresh Fsmash and you hit with both hits then the Fsmash will only be diminished once, if you hit with only the first hit OR the second hit, the Fsmash will still be diminished once.

Stuff to be tested
- Separate jabs.
- Different hitboxes for Tilts?
- F-Smash & D-Smash separate hits.
- N-Air separate hits.
- Fix D-Air chart redundancy.
- Boomerang tilt throw and smash throw.
- Bombs tilt throw and smash throw.
- Arrows charged.
- Spin attack in the air
- Stale kill moves and what % they kill specific characters at specific stages. (olawd this is gonna take a long *** time)

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Nice start. There are a few things that could be considered missing. I'll just go down the list.....

Jabs could be seperate, not just, the jab combo.
I'd be interested to know if there's any difference with hits like F-tilt and U-tilt between hitting an opponent in front of you and hitting an opponent behind you.
Does D-tilt have two slightly seperate hitboxes? Like one up close and one near the tip? I know for a fact that Fox does, so it can't hurt to check.
F-smash could be split up into two hits.
D-smash, it would be awesome if you could get some info on just the first hit of D-smash and you could easilly get some info for just the second hit.
Nair, again, there are two hits, front and back and you can also have both hits.
Nice work with Dair. Maybe just for the sake of the list, add only the pogo.
With the Boomerang, make sure you seperate the tilt throw and the smash throw.
Bombs, again, tilt throw, smash throw. There isn't that much you can do though because Bomb's damage will vary greatly depending on how fast it is traveling. So I'll leave that up to you.
Arrows, charged shot. Maybe even if possible a mid charged shot.
Spin attack, how about in the air?
Also, there is no Zair.

I could get really technical and list a few other misc things (such as random things like the Dair Shockwave), but I think I've given you enough to work with for now. Please keep in mind that this is just what I noticed the first time through and that I'm only trying to help. It is in no way a personal attack XD. You've done a good job so far.

 

[Sosuke]

Awesome, this can defiantly be useful.
Did you use action replay for these or training mode? (I don't think it really matters though)

 

[Kaffei]

Nice start. There are a few things that could be considered missing. I'll just go down the list.....

Jabs could be seperate, not just, the jab combo.
I'd be interested to know if there's any difference with hits like F-tilt and U-tilt between hitting an opponent in front of you and hitting an opponent behind you.
Does D-tilt have two slightly seperate hitboxes? Like one up close and one near the tip? I know for a fact that Fox does, so it can't hurt to check.
F-smash could be split up into two hits.
D-smash, it would be awesome if you could get some info on just the first hit of D-smash and you could easilly get some info for just the second hit.
Nair, again, there are two hits, front and back and you can also have both hits.
Nice work with Dair. Maybe just for the sake of the list, add only the pogo.
With the Boomerang, make sure you seperate the tilt throw and the smash throw.
Bombs, again, tilt throw, smash throw. There isn't that much you can do though because Bomb's damage will vary greatly depending on how fast it is traveling. So I'll leave that up to you.
Arrows, charged shot. Maybe even if possible a mid charged shot.
Spin attack, how about in the air?
Also, there is no Zair.

I could get really technical and list a few other misc things (such as random things like the Dair Shockwave), but I think I've given you enough to work with for now. Please keep in mind that this is just what I noticed the first time through and that I'm only trying to help. It is in no way a personal attack XD. You've done a good job so far.

Haha, no need to feel as if you are attacking, that's a lot of information. I'll be sure to test it once I finish my frikken AP Bio homework. T-T

Awesome, this can defiantly be useful.
Did you use action replay for these or training mode? (I don't think it really matters though)

I don't have action replay, and things tend to be different in training mode. For example, in regular Brawl, TL does 13% with F-Air when it's fresh, but in training mode, he does 15% (wtf). Another example, is when Zelda uses her final smash in training mode, the KB is significantly weaker.

To test every thing I have so far on the list, I went into regular brawl on Final Destination, and used a move 3 times in a row, while recording how much damage it did each time. Then I killed both characters to refresh everything & tested the next move.

 

[WindMajor]

Haha, no need to feel as if you are attacking, that's a lot of information. I'll be sure to test it once I finish my frikken AP Bio homework. T-T



I don't have action replay, and things tend to be different in training mode. For example, in regular Brawl, TL does 13% with F-Air when it's fresh, but in training mode, he does 15% (wtf). Another example, is when Zelda uses her final smash in training mode, the KB is significantly weaker.

To test every thing I have so far on the list, I went into regular brawl on Final Destination, and used a move 3 times in a row, while recording how much damage it did each time. Then I killed both characters to refresh everything & tested the next move.

Good stuff, and good work. This should go to our future Useful Links section.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Oh btw. It occurred to me yesterday that there is also no mention of the Dash Attack. So yeah.
Thanks for taking it the right way. In the past, people haven't taken too kindly to my advice/help as it can apparently appear to be negative and demoralising. To them I say, man up. So I was just making sure XD.

 

[Corpsecreate]

I know this may be a bit off topic but is there any sort of detailed guide involving the mechanics of Diminishing Returns? I'd like to know what %'s each move can kill at their respective diminished levels. Not only that but do attacks like Up-B with many hits refresh your other attacks substantially and does each attack refresh all other attacks equally as much? If theres no guide, I'll do the testing myself and post the results.

 

[MJG]

10 Moves will refresh a previous used move.

Im not sure about our Up B..I wouldn't really use it at a high percentage so seeing as how if the enemy DI's out of it, he can punish us and get the quick and easy kill.

 

[Corpsecreate]

Tested it today.

its 9 moves not 10 moves and multi hit attacks act as 1 refresh not multiple.

EDIT: It appears to actually be 10, the test I used had problems with rounding which led me to believe it was 9.

 

[Kaffei]

Oh btw. It occurred to me yesterday that there is also no mention of the Dash Attack. So yeah.
Thanks for taking it the right way. In the past, people haven't taken too kindly to my advice/help as it can apparently appear to be negative and demoralising. To them I say, man up. So I was just making sure XD.

Oh.. Wow I can't believe I forgot that lol.
By the way, I won't be able to update/test the rest of the stuff you mentioned until Friday because of house rules. So if any of yall aren't too busy I'd appreciate it if you guys could contribute.

I know this may be a bit off topic but is there any sort of detailed guide involving the mechanics of Diminishing Returns? I'd like to know what %'s each move can kill at their respective diminished levels. Not only that but do attacks like Up-B with many hits refresh your other attacks substantially and does each attack refresh all other attacks equally as much? If theres no guide, I'll do the testing myself and post the results.

Hi Corps. Late grats on the Rocky tourney.
Uh, if you want, I can have all the moves put to stale 4, and KO with each common kill move (U-Smash, U-Air, F-Air, etc. The usual) in the center of specific stages.
I'm willing to do it at Final Destination, Smashville and Battlefield. If there are anymore stages you want me to test let me know.. it'll be awhile before you guys get results though lol.

 

[copacetic]

what i've always been too lazy to test out is, do fsmash's separate hits have separate diminishings on them? Since you have to input the attack twice it seems like they should be treated as separate attacks, but this game is weird sometimes

 

[Corpsecreate]

Nah man thats alright. Now that I know how it works, I can test it myself. Thanks for the offer though :D

copacetic: I tested that out, each hit on the forward smash diminishes but if you hit with both it acts as 1. So if you have a completely fresh Fsmash and you hit with both hits then the Fsmash will only be diminished once, if you hit with only the first hit OR the second hit, the Fsmash will still be diminished once.

It seems each level of diminishment is roughly a reduction of 10% damage and knockback of the previous hit and so the most diminished an attack can be is close to 45% of the original damage and knockback.

 

[Kaffei]

Nah man thats alright. Now that I know how it works, I can test it myself. Thanks for the offer though :D

copacetic: I tested that out, each hit on the forward smash diminishes but if you hit with both it acts as 1. So if you have a completely fresh Fsmash and you hit with both hits then the Fsmash will only be diminished once, if you hit with only the first hit OR the second hit, the Fsmash will still be diminished once.

Haha ok. I'd appreciate it if you posted the results. :3

 

[Corpsecreate]

Haha ok. I'd appreciate it if you posted the results. :3

I just realised how painfully long thats going to take and I give up. You cant do this in training mode (since theres no diminishing) so you will have to beat someone up to a certain % for each level of diminishment. That would be suicidal doing it by yourself. You're better off figuring out the % decrease in knockback for each level of diminish and calculating the kill %'s from there. This is what im trying to do now....

Ness Fully Charged Neutral B did this much damage from fresh to completely stale:

38 / 33 / 29 / 27 / 24 / 22 / 20 / 18 /17 / 17

Warios Fully Charged Down B:

42 / 36 / 32 / 29 / 26 / 23 / 21 / 20 / 19 / 18

Fox kills Bowser with uptilt on Shadow Moses at these %'s:

180 / 198 / 217 / 238 / 259 / 279 / 298 / 316 / 331 / 341

 

[Kaffei]

nvm posted something that doesnt deserve an answer :D

-Feels dumb-
What would that be? o.O

 

[Corpsecreate]

omg this investigation into diminishing is getting very confusing. There is an internal timer between hits that decides whether a series of attacks will be diminished once or twice. I dont know how long the timer is, its very difficult to figure out. What I mean by a timer is this:

If you upsmash twice very quickly it will only diminish the upsmash once, if you upsmash once and then upsmash a little while later it will diminish twice (once for each upsmash).

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Well that's just maddeningly unhelpful XD. I'm not even going to try and figure out the diminishing system, but I was thinking, there has to have been a thread written about it. At least one would think. If you can find it, it will save you hours of unnecessary testing.

 

[Corpsecreate]

Have done some more testing and conclusion is that diminishing is very very very strange. I've given up trying to understand it although I did learn a few things that I will add into my gameplay.

 

[Kaffei]

Have done some more testing and conclusion is that diminishing is very very very strange. I've given up trying to understand it although I did learn a few things that I will add into my gameplay.

I'm still gonna go ahead and test when stale kill moves kill specific characters at specific points at specific stages, if yall don't mind.

 

[Corpsecreate]

I'm still gonna go ahead and test when stale kill moves kill specific characters at specific points at specific stages, if yall don't mind.

I have a formula that may be able to tell you the numbers but ive only tested it with 1 attack. If you could give me the results of the kill %'s of an attack at each level of being stale I could compare it with what I get through my formula and if the numbers come close to a match then we could potentially save a lot of time.

 

[Kaffei]

I have a formula that may be able to tell you the numbers but ive only tested it with 1 attack. If you could give me the results of the kill %'s of an attack at each level of being stale I could compare it with what I get through my formula and if the numbers come close to a match then we could potentially save a lot of time.

Can you give me something specific to test? ie Snake at center of SV with stale3 U-Smash

 

[Corpsecreate]

Can you give me something specific to test? ie Snake at center of SV with stale3 U-Smash

I already tested the formula with TL's upsmash. I probably should have mentioned that The numbers were sort of close but not close enough to be used. Stale9 upsmash killed Bowser on Shadow Moses at 275ish and my formula gave 252.

 

[Kaffei]

I already tested the formula with TL's upsmash. I probably should have mentioned that The numbers were sort of close but not close enough to be used. Stale9 upsmash killed Bowser on Shadow Moses at 275ish and my formula gave 252.

275 LOL.
You're getting closer! By the way, what is the most common stage that people fight on? FD?