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Toon Link Match-up Video and Critique Thread

GodMeowMix

Smash Ace
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Nov 21, 2005
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I remember playing Dabuz when he was practicing for Apex 12 over wifi, I didn't find him to be very good at the MU especially since he was asking for advice. We had a good connection and I've lost to him in the past up until that point.. but then again, it is wifi..
 

GodMeowMix

Smash Ace
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Nov 21, 2005
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582
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Florida, Ocala
The MU is A LOT harder on wifi since the entire technique to beating toonlink is perfect shielding.
Lol, just to add to the discussion I don't feel like I could beat you offline if given the opportunity of playing you for money and I also didn't use that to show people my epeen. I only use my matches as an example to show that I can be helpful to the community, if I wanted to put you on blast I'd make a blog on AiB or some stupid **** people like to do on that site.. instead I used to **** with you the few times we hung out and hopefully you remember that cause you we had some really ****ing funny moments. I thought you quit for Playstation Allstars btw?
 

Dabuz

Fraud at Smash
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Haha, I didn't think you were putting me on blast since you're a really chill and friendly person to be around IRL. I said that because from the Olimar perspective, this MU is really just perfect shielding and once an Olimar player recognizes that, he just needs to read the grabs Toonlink has to go for to touch Olimar. Also, I did quit Brawl, but I quit only because Brawl got boring to me. Playstation All Stars just happened to be released around that time, but that game is dead and after the gamebattles playoffs are over, i'm completely done with that and will have fully transitioned to Injustice, a game that will hopefully have a good community for tournaments for more than a few months after release. I do still check SWF when I am browsing the internet, I blame it on having a Facebook always being blown up by Brawl statuses xD
 

Chsal

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
214
You don't have to go far away from the ledge to regrab it.

Just press away to let go of the ledge, and then quickly press Z twice. TL should let go and then re-tether himself really quickly. It'll seem like you didn't actually leave the ledge.

Try not to do plain SH Nairs. They're really unsafe. All relevant characters can shieldgrab it. Try to either arrow cancel afterwards, fast fall them or double jump out. (Note you can still be punished for all of these. Just less often than normal SH Nair. They also allow for more followups if you do hit.)

Learn to JC Bomb throw. I think I only ever saw you SH bomb throw. It's pretty easy to do as well. Just throw the bomb during the startup frames of your jump. TL should slide and throw the bomb.

Some of the double jumps offstage weren't safe I think. You weren't punished for them in the Diddy sets but you were a lot in the MK one. Double jumps in general aren't very safe against MK because he can punish you pretty easily on landing, which he did, a lot.

Otherwise good nana control, ibombs and setups. (The ledge regrab and JC Bomb stuff can be found in the Neverending tricks thread.)
 

chris.rayment

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 14, 2011
Messages
2
Just went to a tournament recently and I played a toon link ditto against the tournament host (my tag is NO~M).
The 2 games (1 set) is at 3:54 -> 4:05ish, here is the link to the twitch.tv stream:

http://www.twitch.tv/acgamesonline/b/433317522

Was hoping I could get a critique of my play, any suggestions help. I think I was camping a bit too much and I don't have that much experience, I wanna know what you guys think.
thanks a lot in advance!
 

southpaw

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game1
you arent exactly camping too much, as your opponent is actually the one thats non stop camping. but wut you are doing is giving your opponent to much room to breathe, and then you are kinda blindly rushing into his projectile wall. if you want to approach or try to get
in on toon link, you kinda have to use your own projectiles first to help close the gap. your second stock just goes wrong since you continue to force kill moves like doing running upsmashes and landing with fair. along with missed out on easy kill opportunities likely due to the pressure of tourney/being a stockdown wutever.

game2. o now its a full camp mode ok. its actually hard to say wut you are doing wrong or right when it comes to just outcamping. since for the most part is will almost always be pretty even in percents until around 100+ where once someone gets a kill the game will change drastically. all i can say is just pay attention to what your opponent is doing and try to put projectiles where he will be not where he is. doing a shda when ur opponent just jump dj'd bomb pulled? bad, try not to get to into your own auto pilot flow, and just watch the other person. as far as getting the first kill...well just play safe and dont make mistakes/risks that will get you killed. try to win the small camp battles until you get your opponent in a situation where they will have to commit to an option that can lead to their death.

also try to rewatch the set and pay attention to how blacktwins edgeguarded and juggled you and the decisions he made. hes not a toon link main obviously, but u should still look it over and steal anything that worked for him. just keep at it and im sure you start getting better results.
 

southpaw

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uhh vs the mk you played fine since you weren't really punished for much. only big mistake you made was how you lost your first stock game1 when you decided to throw away the bomb after losing your jump cuz that bomb prolly woulda saved your life. Outside of that I really dont agree with how much you double jump. Your landings didn't really get punished much oddly, but especially vs mk using up your double jump will usually get you shuttled to death. You actually do lose your stock in game 2 because of it. I personally play relatively grounded vs mk, and then only use my double jump to get away.

vs falco I won't say much since I don't think I'm too amazing at the mu, but you prolly coulda actually won that match since he was forcing his upsmash extremely hard. when falcos do that you can literally comeback from any % deficit so long as you're on same stock. I still have no idea why falcos get so antsy for the kill.

Personally I think you should try to pay attention to your spacing more, and try not to put yourself in disadvantaged situations. In my opinion standing on the smashville platform while its offstage is not a great place to just hang out on. Along with using your double jump when your opponent could be in a position to punish your landing (either they could land first near you or if they are already grounded and can just run to where you will be). I dunno just some thoughts for you to think about
 

G-Dub

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Thx southpaw. Both players play me alot, and against the MK i know what did wrong, and i know i played agressive vs him. i'd jus like to hear very situational tips. The MK played very good this set, and i know he should punish way more than he does....
 

southpaw

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vs mk i would define any point where you use your double jump vs mk and he can potentially hit you for it(either immiedetely or on landing). because if you are high in the air and your opponent is on the ground and your only options now are maybe airdodge, bomb, or zair that would be bad imo(all would lose to shieldgrab or grounded shuttle loop). of course if you are far enough away thats fine, but mk can close distances very quick. but even chars like shiek fox sonic can just run to where you will land if use up your double jump earlier and you can get punished for that stuff too. thats really it. along with i think putting yourself on the offstage platform of sv would be bad as now you give mk free uair pressure if you block and he also has more freedom to use his shuttle loop to hit you. (you dont do this exactly but i dont feel like deleting it cuz i think its decent info to read anyways)

honestly rewatching ur mk match again some of my previous thoughts were kinda off cuz the entire time when i watched i was thinking "i would this instead why didnt he do this?". umm but theres a few times where you retreat to the edge of the stage rather early when you dont have to @6:02. also i think you should try to run under mk more when hes in the air vs trying to air to air him/ jump over him. u seem to jump and pull bombs to bait and punish his nados which imo that tactic shouldn't be something to rely on. in general watch your dj bomb plucks u do them a lot more often in game 2. (http://smashboards.com/threads/double-jump-bomb-pull.293119/)

no reason for this dj @7:58 after getting nado'd. actually dj bomb pull prolly woulda been better. idk this stuff is hard to explain without being extremely nitpicky and I really dont wanna just keep looking for everytime you jump and im like "That was a bad time to jump because what if XYZ occured"
just ummm everytime you use your double jump make sure it has a purpose either to getaway from a potential hit, safely make space to set up, or to attack and cover a certain space, and if at any point you use your jump and your landing got punished think about why you got punished and if it was because you chose to go into the air without a good reason. i hope this is actually helpful and that you don't think im totally wrong, if u do then its kool im bad anways.
 

G-Dub

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Thanks for the critique will work on this. Like I said, I play this MK a lot and know his habits pretty well, I was more comfortable in the air and reading his movements then i'd be vs. other players, but your notes are helpful. I watched the vid again and I see what your talking about.
 

OniTheWolf

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Feb 6, 2009
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Miami, FL
I have been going to more offline tournaments lately (just my luck that I get that college freedom as soon as the game is dying :(). I definitely feel like I have been improving. I have been placing decently, but I just can't seem to beat the great players in my state. Here are the losses I had at my last tournament (Friday) against 2 PRd players in my state.

vs. Seibrik (Winners Round 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0hvB-5Tge0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85lgk2uBPrY
This set is kind of embarrassing because I lost in that sort of fashion to Seibrik's D3 (it was an MK banned tourney. With the gentleman's rule in effect, I didn't allow him to use MK in the set). I know he has a great D3, a top one at that, but the stigma that he didn't have to go MK to kick my **** in is a bit of a confidence breaker. Anyway, you can tell how much trouble I have in this particular MU. I felt like I got too aggro. But I just don't know how to keep up the camping. I like getting in with Toon Link, using my tools to space and get opportunities to go in. In this match up, I have to do something I clearly fail at. I can't wall my projectiles and camp long-term. I end up getting myself into bad positions. There are patterns that better players than me have picked up on when critiquing my matches (such as the way I immediately double jump when hit, how I get up from the ledge against D3, etc.) however they aren't Tink mains. I need that fellow Tink main perspective into my problems with this MU so that I can possibly make it a closer set next time.

Also, you can see how I start to lose confidence when I make a tech error. Those bomb throws away from me were supposed to be drop>instathrow in the other direction at Seibrik, just to mix it up. I think I messed up a JC Bomb throw once or twice. Also, that stupidly timed up B off stage was supposed to be an angled boomerang. You can really see how I lose confidence and go away from camping when I have several tech errors and get exposed from them. I need to correct those issues and get my nerves straightened out with more experience.

vs. 8Bitman (Losers Quarter Finals)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyFWf7DArec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmu-5lbXhAk
I overall felt like I played good this set. However, input is always appreciated. The Game 2 SD was REALLY bad. IDK why I thought that TL's tether recovery would catch me from that low under the stage.

I'm gonna continue going to offlines when the opportunity presents itself so I can continue to get better.

Thanks in advance. Be as harsh as you need to be.

Oh yeah, don't worry, the textures were off during the matches lol.
 

G-Dub

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I played Seibrik not to long ago at come to papa and let him use MK. Wario and DDD are obnoxious, rather fight the bat any day.

Side note: toon link is one of the most mentally tiring character to play in tourny. He requires a lot of mental endurance and a lot of thinking, to make this worse, most sets you play will goto 6 7, or 8 minutes, and many will goto game 3.
That being said, keep up the camp game. You wanna go in vs DDD? DONT. DDD will live to 200% easy and if you go in, there is a very good chance you'll get grabbed and eat 20-40% and maybe more. None of tinks CQC is safe on DDDs shield. This includes his airials and Zair. You just have to keep it at mid-long/long range. You will not out space him up close.
Just a few things about that specific MU.

I will watch the matches and critique later
 

southpaw

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for oni vs d3. u seem to like to do a lot of stuff. I mean as in you are basically trying to do as many actions you can at all times and just have projectiles and hitboxes everywhere constantly while this is wut you should be doing in a sense, you need to be playing more effectively. A lot of your movements are just wasted inputs, and if you pay attention to seibrik he isn't even moving or having to react. you fh bairing when d3 is standing in front of you watching you swipe the air for fun is no good. projectiles should be forcing some sort of reaction from the opponent. either it will hit them so they have to block/dodge. or they want to aproach by ground/air but can't because a projectile is walling them, and they feel pressured by this. (later note this looked like ur auto pilot playing not you)

for a general game plan of fighting d3 tho. watch wut hes doing at all times, because waddles block everything however his animation is slow and laggy and can be punished when read. also just pay attention cuz u dont wanna die to gordo at like 60. next when landing vs d3 always have 2 things happening at once. landing with zair will get you shieldgrabbed 9/10 times, but if you have 2 hitboxes that d3 has to worry about at once ex. (return rang+zair, bomb+crossup bair, etc) you will be much more likely to be safe and luckily since d3 is kinda slow you can actually make most of your landings safe so long as you have 2 hitboxes at the same time.

only watched game1 of d3

not sure why i dont have much to say for your rob vid. it seems like you were much more comfortable in this mu than you were fighting d3, and it didnt seem like your opponent knew toon link. also helped that you got early kills thanks to his di lol. idk i feel like u played the mu alright, you weren't making one mistake over and over, weren't getting hit by lasers much (but maybe that was the robs fault :p)
My guess for how you played much better vs rob was also due to the fact that he was also moving around. I'm not sure why but
for some reason trying to camp a person that never moves from a spot seems to be really difficult at times(it happens to me too)
when ppl dont move they are paying attention to you much more closely and will dash in at any holes in your wall much quicker
than you'd expect, so just watch out for that and try to bait them accordingly.

also dont feel bad for losing to seibrik's d3. hes a great player and his d3 is a legit char that he uses in tourney.
 

Sensei Seibrik

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Oni, you shouldn't feel bad that I beat you without mk. That's why mk banned tournies are stupid imo


I do not need MK to beat the players I normally beat. If I beat someone with mk, it's not because I was using MK, its because I'm the better player.

Just like if I use mk and I lose, i shouldn't feel bad I lost with mk, I got beat cause in that set I wasn't the better player.

blaming any other reason for winning/losing is obnoxious and makes me lose alot of respect for those people as players.
 

OniTheWolf

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@Seibrik: I get you man. I know you still have a top D3 in the world. I just begin to wonder how I would do against MK, the harder MU for Tink (I meant feel bad in that sense, not the boohoo sulking one). You are still the better player by a wide margin, so I still would have lost 2-0 lol, regardless of the character or situation. Losing was expected for sure. Like I said, it just makes me wonder how I would handle the tougher character MU.

Either way, I need to change the way I approach the D3 MU.
 

Sensei Seibrik

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If you already thought you'd lose 2-0 regardless, why ban mk? why not use that opportunity to get the exp?

cause now your stuck wondering how you would have done

this is what happens when there is an option for people to take the easy way out, they take it and lose out in the end because of it


your not gona get any better vs mk until you start playing against him


btw

last time i played toonlio (TL from gainsville)

he took me to last hit last match

just saying
 

MeekSpeedy

Smash Ace
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If you already thought you'd lose 2-0 regardless, why ban mk? why not use that opportunity to get the exp?

cause now your stuck wondering how you would have done

this is what happens when there is an option for people to take the easy way out, they take it and lose out in the end because of it


your not gona get any better vs mk until you start playing against him


btw

last time i played toonlio (TL from gainsville)

he took me to last hit last match

just saying
was that tl flea??
 

G-Dub

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Ok. Game 1 Vs D3:
Agree with southpaw: way too much unnecessary inputs. It looked like a controller check not a match lol. DDD really looked like he wasnt feeling any kind of pressure or urgency to get in and stop the spam. I would've liked to see more Zair, but more importantly more followups from Zair like Zair>grab/nair. Both are very reliable and can condition your opponent for later mix-ups and mind-games. Your cross-ups were solid, and usually delt dmg. I saw a lot of Fairs that were really doing absolutely nothing for you, and as southpaw said, those waddledee throws have a TON of lag and i saw a few chances to capitalize on those and really do some dmg.

Game 2: Much better. A lot less wasted movement (untill last stock) but i did NOT like all the FSmash. Not sure if they were input errors or purposeful, but not a single one landed (except for the first hit of one) and most were used when DDD was not in kill %s.
Again you failed to punish a few waddle tosses. Your DI was not stellar either this match, stock 1 (iirc) couldve survived, and last stock seemed like a premature death to me. Another thing stands out to me: Not in either match did you throw out an USmash. I did see a few opportunities to do so (after Zair for example) without taking to much of a risk. Also USmash can be a pretty hard punisher for those forward-bs. Another solid option you never used this set would have worked nicely on stock 1 when you were stuck on the ledge: back off ledge>jump>buffer nair. Its quick, surprising and relatively safe.

Notes on this set: Your teck skill seemed solid, just work on when and where to put all those inputs.
I know you didnt play with textures, but i LOVED the young link, and HATED D3s.....who thought that'd be a good idea??? lol
 

OniTheWolf

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Ok. Game 1 Vs D3:
Agree with southpaw: way too much unnecessary inputs. It looked like a controller check not a match lol. DDD really looked like he wasnt feeling any kind of pressure or urgency to get in and stop the spam. I would've liked to see more Zair, but more importantly more followups from Zair like Zair>grab/nair. Both are very reliable and can condition your opponent for later mix-ups and mind-games. Your cross-ups were solid, and usually delt dmg. I saw a lot of Fairs that were really doing absolutely nothing for you, and as southpaw said, those waddledee throws have a TON of lag and i saw a few chances to capitalize on those and really do some dmg.

Game 2: Much better. A lot less wasted movement (untill last stock) but i did NOT like all the FSmash. Not sure if they were input errors or purposeful, but not a single one landed (except for the first hit of one) and most were used when DDD was not in kill %s.
Again you failed to punish a few waddle tosses. Your DI was not stellar either this match, stock 1 (iirc) couldve survived, and last stock seemed like a premature death to me. Another thing stands out to me: Not in either match did you throw out an USmash. I did see a few opportunities to do so (after Zair for example) without taking to much of a risk. Also USmash can be a pretty hard punisher for those forward-bs. Another solid option you never used this set would have worked nicely on stock 1 when you were stuck on the ledge: back off ledge>jump>buffer nair. Its quick, surprising and relatively safe.

Notes on this set: Your teck skill seemed solid, just work on when and where to put all those inputs.
I know you didnt play with textures, but i LOVED the young link, and HATED D3s.....who thought that'd be a good idea??? lol
Thanks for the input, G-Dub and southpaw. Looks like I have to get back to the drawing board and find another way to camp and pressure in general to input into my play style. That way, I won't have so many wasted inputs, and I would actually be applying pressure instead of looking like a fool throwing out random techs and hit-boxes for the sake of looking 'flashy' (for lack of a better word).

@G-Dubs: I certainly wasn't looking to take as many risks this time around. Last time I played Seibrik, he took full advantage of my blind aggression and made me pay dearly for it. So this time, I tried playing a bit more cautious, too cautious. I did not go for the openings or follow ups I would normally go for (I normally use a lot more ZAir>follow ups like NAir/Grab) however I was more afraid of leaving my self in a bad position, and getting punished for it (perfect shielded>grabbed, or another similar reaction).

Some of those FSmashes were bad inputs. Normally I don't go for them. Some of the FAirs were suppose to be RAR BAirs. As for not using much of USmash, that is normally how I play. I like keeping it fresh, especially against heavies. Again though, I think most of that has to do with playing too cautious.

In this case, although I was playing cautiously, I was not playing smart. Like you guys said, the hitboxes I used to keep myself safe were empty and put no pressure on my opponent. My gameplan this time around did not do much for me. Time to go back to the drawing board.

@Seibrik: I get what you are saying about the MK issue. At the same time, I wouldn't call that set a waste of time for me. I need the D3 experience. I haven't played many of them, and what better than to get that experience from one of the best D3s there is? I still want to play your MK, my decision to saying no wasn't me trying to take the 'easy way out' this time around (although I can see how you can view it as such considering it is the tougher character MU). Since I played your D3 the time before, I wanted to see if I could get closer to producing better results against it. I hope we can clear this up. My last couple posts were not meant to, in any way shape or form, to take shots at you good sir. Either way I felt like I was getting experience that I clearly needed.
 

Sensei Seibrik

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Oni, thats why we can play inf. friendlies


the only reason i DIDNT play friendlies with u w/ mk was BECAUSE u banned him on me in tourney

my logic was if u wanted mk exp. u would have not banned him

simple as that


you wouldn't be happy if i had the power to and chose to ban TL

i dont care how "different" u'd think it is cuz TL isn't broken, but it isn't different. it'd be exactly the same, and it sucks when someone tells u you cannot use your main just cause
 

zFlashyStyle

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Cody if I wanted a smart ass answer of course I would've asked you but I asked the boards not you alone if I need it that I would've of PM'd you so please stfu ;D

Not to mention that's a whole diff MU.
 

NH Cody

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the point is you posted a casual match vs a novice snake, so there's nothing really we can help you with :)

p.s. this whole board does not exist. all the toon link mains stopped going to swf in like 2012
 
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