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Toon Link Match-up Video and Critique Thread

Gords

Gords

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Sydney
i am also very interested in improving my spamming/camping game with tlink. can someone please link a video of a really good tlink that camps and spaces well while doing it. i would realy like to see a good toon link do this for reference.

preferably one that maintains the kind of camping that leads to a time out, during a tourney set.
 
N

NH Cody

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Kakariko Village, NH
I think MJG played pretty well vs Will, especially games 1 and 3. it's a bit old but it should give you a sense of how camping works (for MJG at least. everyone camps differently) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JRtdeRmQnM

you could also take a look at my mini-video compendium: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14839630&postcount=15

Finally, there are tons of good old videos to watch but I'm not sure how much you should base your understanding of TL off them (such as old videos of Jerm, Jash, Hyro, etc.) You could watch a match like Jerm vs Espy or Jash vs Keitaro on youtube but keep in mind that these people have likely improved by a considerable margin since then and would be playing smarter/safer than what you see.
 
MJG

MJG

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Yea, I played will after that at impulse and he wasn't able to take a game . You gotta camp DK and spam while approaching (depends on where DK is). I'll explain more when I get home but that MU is buns for DK.

:phone:
 
LucarioMaster

LucarioMaster

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
80
You have a good toon link, but you miss the edgehog too much the falco.
Ex : 5:20 you could spike..or edge
Wanna grab too.. ;)
 
southpaw

southpaw

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@twink/dan/actionpanda
use bair more. anytime peach is floating around in the air use bair. retreating bair beats her approaching dairs. or zair can work against dair too but you have to read how she will approach. zair also beats normal turnips.

remember to chase peach whenever she is in a bad pos (in the air after prolly get hit once and running out of stage) dont just go back to camping. theres plenty of times u land a move where peach has to land and you back off.(such as at 4:32 where u land a get up atk and could space for a bair kill but instead you instinctively throw a boomerang and peach gets back to the stage, you even make good traps with the dropped bomb (4:43) but then follow up with another boomerang over a kill.

of course looking over this and seeing all ur missed opportunities is easy (you coulda done zair to upsmash at blah blah blah) but the idea is sometimes you gotta go for it. epecially if it wouldve been worth the risk. I have this same problem and this is the hardest part about toon link. around 7:50 is great keep doing that and when she landed safely you backed off and got a bomb, nice.

also landing/spotdodging in front of grounded/shielding peach is almost always bad. grab or jab will outspeed any move u try or she can safely dair if you shield or spotdodge. just dont be close to her on the ground unless you're crossup landing. and do ur best to never shield at like nair range in front of peach. this gives peach a free approach with dair usually because you're scared in shield, and her dair equals dumb mixups.

hopefully this helps and half of this im sure you already know. game3 was much better as you started to use bair a lot more and pressuring better.
 
N

NH Cody

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TLMSheikant

TLMSheikant

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@ Quest- that's exactly why I want help. I hadnt played this game for a while and play horribly now.

EDIT: I dont know how to camp effectively anymore, since its been ages since I used TL. (Im a wifi warrior now lol and use mostly Marf). And I noticed Im terrible vs shield pressure now and make so many accidental rolls. I guess I just have to get back into it. But its so hard without any tournament sceene anymore :/
 
WindMajor

WindMajor

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@Southpaw
What I mostly got from watching my matches was that I need to work on my technical skill. It's too sloppy (rising Zairs where Nairs should go, accidental Fsmashes & dash attacks, etc.) I miss a lot of opportunities, but that doesn't bother me as much because it brings me to a neutral position, not a disadvantageous one (like tech errors). I know that with enough time the opportunity will rise again.

About the bairs, youre right. Sant himself actually told me in the middle of one of the matches to "stop waiting for fair", which took time to sink in, but I listened and it produced results. I have a match against his peach that I'll upload soon, I know I used Bair differently in it.
 
D

Deleted member 189823

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How do you get by with a two-letter post? It says you need at least 10 characters. O_o
 
N

NH Cody

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Bizkit finally uploaded some of my MMM videos! You can watch if you want. You don't have to critique unless you want to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZlUQCu7ZVA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nXwJOkOxt0&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWhUYUDptsc&feature=relmfu

and you may have already seen this one but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azi7njlPnkg&feature=relmfu

actually, I want at least one person to critique the last one lol. diddy is dumb. I can never play serious vs diddy...I unconsciously autopilot and I'm trying to figure out how to avoid this
 
G-Dub

G-Dub

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You didnt use the bananas enough imo. When you did land a naner, he ate dmg for it... Umm i also think you should've held on to the bananas longer and camped with rangs n arrows untill you get a free banana combo (I-banana>Bair/Nair, Zair>banana>option select, etc.)
And a tip to stay focused and not auto-pilot against diddy: I like to stay focused on his banana toss patterns, and try to read a toss and run up and Nair; you grab the banana and deal him dmg/send him offstage.
To some it all up, more platform camping, hold those bananas and control them, and SDIing diddys FSmash is not as difficult as the commentators suggested.

EDIT: And Z-drop a bomb or two once in a while to cover your landings.
 
KT Kasrani

KT Kasrani

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i watched ur vid vs sails quest.

You weren't utilizing his bananas at all and letting him control the ground. you can hold a banana and still camp him out. Also bombs go through naners if they collide in the air (so we win the throwing game). You also didnt try to gimp him at all. TL is actually really good at gimping diddy. diddys recovery is really linear and u can time the monkey flip and hit him out of it. also if he has to use his ^b u can just z drop a bomb on him and its mostly stock or if u are feeling brave u can just dair him.

it looked more of lacking MU exp than actually losing. wen u were camping the platforms on 2nd game he couldnt catch u at all and u were winning until you came down to fight him on the ground. if u dont know wat to do just keep camping and keep the lead.

main thing is dont let diddy control the ground and watch your landings. try to keep control of one of his naners. bombs go through naners in air.
 
S

ShadowTl

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Jun 27, 2009
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Video directory

Here you can find videos of good toon link players in a specific match-up. If you have trouble with a certain match-up, watch one of these videos and see how other toon links handle the match-up. This isn't complete yet, I still have to add some low tiers. If you have a new video, feel free to post below and I'll add it to this list.

:metaknight:
MJG vs Otori!
MJG vs Holyknightmare
MJG vs Bloodcross
Sigmaaaaaaaaaaaa
MJG vs Ally
Kingtoon vs Nairo
PJ vs Gnes
Jash vs Anti (old)

:olimar:
MJG vs Fino 3 4 5
PJ vs Sync

:diddy:
MJG vs JJrockets
PJ vs Gnes
PJ vs Fliphop
Jash vs ADHD

:popo:
MJG vs Vinnie

:snake:
MJG vs Havok
MJG vs Ally
Kingtoon vs False

:falco:
MJG vs Shugo
Quest vs Bloodcross

:marth:
MJG vs Future
Kingtoon vs Mr.R
Jerm vs Nike

:pikachu2:
MJG vs Esam
Shadow vs Pikaforlife

:wario:
MJG vs Reflex
Gnes vs Tesh

:zerosuitsamus:
Kingtoon vs Salem
PJ vs Nick Riddle

:lucario:
PJ vs Trela
MJG vs Trela
Hyuga vs Richi

:dedede:
Quest vs Atomsk

:wolf:
MJG vs Kain 1 2

:gw:
MJG vs Hylian

:fox:
Hyuga vs TKD
MJG vs Zeton

:peach:
MJG vs Mikey Lenetia
PJ vs Illmatic
Quest vs Peachkid

:pit:
PJ vs Maharba

:dk2:
PJ vs Neon
MJG vs Will

:ness2:
Tsuna vs Shaky

:rob:
MJG: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN2ZyfxxBk8&feature=related
Kingtoon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xWHK6X0-IU&feature=related

:pt:
MJG: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-5NEV6XQo4&feature=related

:sheik:
MJG: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuORKp8LX7Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TileIG4_jis

:sonic:
MJG: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSAv0eVu98M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MaBBnnIagU
Jerm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFNfENv6Hvg&list=WL613356ED659C6B5F&index=1&feature=plpp_video

:luigi2:
Archer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U8UBVB6338

:zelda:
Jerm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuNj5Rrw-T4&feature=related (old)
 
MJG

MJG

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In Kokomo Circle Camping with Shadow1pj
~Quest~ said:
thanks g dub and KT.

I played Fatal today on livestream and would like critique.

http://www.twitch.tv/wwwsmash/b/348310526 4:07:41

I also had good doubles matches earlier in the stream if anyone wouldn't mind checking one of those out.
Click to expand...
Game 1: It was good that you were keeping up with fatal in regards to percentages but it wasn't exactly the best thing to do since snake outlives us. You were a little too close to snake for comfort I feel like. He also caught you during the lag of some of your projectile pulls (like your during the end of your last stock). I would just be careful when it comes to that sort of thing since any type of damage from snake is pretty brutal.

Game 2: You did a really good job of keeping snake away while racking up damage pretty quickly. Just from what I saw, I feel like you abandoned this strategy pretty quickly after snake was in kill range. I understand that getting the first stock is crucial in this game, but you should try to stick to the original game plan in the future to avoid taking any unnecessary damage. The kill will come eventually. With that being said, I think you should have continued the bair combo at the start of snake's second stock. You set him up really well for it and snake was going to be eating tons of damage when he tried to come back on stage (if you were lucky enough, you could have ended his second stock pretty early since he was in a bad position). The failed combo on snake lead to the end of your first stock.

Im not sure if you noticed this but...fatal was using dash attack a lot to catch you on your landings or to catch your bomb as you threw it at him. You could use this to your advantage in the future by simply waiting for them to dash in while doing some sort of maneuver around snake's dash attack, which in-turn, would give you a chance to combo snake.

Was 4:16:43 a tech error? THat left you pretty vulnerable :(

:toonlink:
 
Musketeer04

Musketeer04

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Jan 23, 2012
Messages
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G-Dub

G-Dub

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Wasting away: Inwood FL
I watched the vids vs. olimar.
Ok so what you were doing was working but it really should not have. The olimar never jabed when you got in his face, and almost never punished your poorly spaced attacks on-shield. You both got VERY predictable in the first match; olimar would SH toss pikmin with the same rythim which you did pick up on and punish, but on the same note: you would SH Nair>QD arrow and he punished you for it. Full hop those Nairs when fighting olimar and mix-up how you come out of the nair if its on shield. You need almost surgical precision when spacing moves in kill percents, and precise you were not. On multiple occasions you would land with a Bair on oli's shield and he just wouldnt punish you for it. A jab or Oos Fair would punish those poor on shield attacks 10/10 times.
Also one more thing: bombs are not very effective against olimar because pikmin **** up everything lol.
Overall, you need more patience in this MU. You rushed in too often when you were at neutral and didnt really have an opening. The olimars poor play allowed this to not really matter but an olimar that knows the MU would play much different.
Thats jus what i saw.

:phone:
 
Musketeer04

Musketeer04

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 23, 2012
Messages
65
Yeah, the Olimar player was normally a Marth player. So I shouldn't approach as much because Olimar can punish if I hit his sheild? I never knew Olimar could do that.
 
G-Dub

G-Dub

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Messages
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Wasting away: Inwood FL
Well. Jus be more patient when approaching. Watch how the oli camps and wait for an opening then stay inside and deal damage. If the situation goes back to neutral dont rush to immediately get back inside. Simply reset and wait for the next solid opportunity to get in. Also tinks grab is decent in this MU because olimar feels threatened when we get inside on him and instinctively goes into shield.

:phone:
 
S

ShadowTl

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 27, 2009
Messages
76
Location
Europe
I don't plan on maining Toon Link, but I think using him as some kind of secondary would help me work a bit more on my tech skill and other things.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
You're not using some of tl's best moves. Use zair for spacing and to make your landings save, you can also zair while holding a bomb. Airdodge first and then press grab/attack.
Another important tool is ibomb. When you airdodge you will also drop your bomb at the same time. This is usefull when mixing up your landings or when someone comes after your in the air. It's basicly the same inputs as the zair with bomb but you have to press A right after you airdodge.
 
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