Toon Link got some changes in 3.6. Let's talk about that.

[AndrogynousOkami]

Haha, I got here in time!

Also, Good Mythical Morning reference.

My thoughts:

Spoiler

"--Meteor uses Light element instead of Fire and has a magic on-hit sound."
But down-tilt is already the Lightning Spike. What do we call this?

"-Forward Throw
--BKB decreased to 40 from 72.
--KBG increased to 110 from 75.
--IASA pushed back to frame 37 from 34.
--Angle lowered to 42 from 70."
BUT CAN IT STILL COMBO INTO THE FIRE DAIR SPIKE???


"-Down Aerial
--Auto Cancel starts on frame 64 instead of 55."
Thank God.

-Up Smash
--BKB increased from 30 to 40.
--KBG lowered from 100 to 90."
Thank God.

"-Side Special (Boomerang)
--Sweet spot DMG decreased to 14 from 19."
Thank God.

"-Up Throw
--DMG decreased to 2 from 5.
--BKB increased to 35 from 18.
--KBG increased to 230 from 155.
--IASA removed and endlag increased from 16 to 22.
--Now forces tumble regardless of knockback."
Thank God.

Good to see that they're removing a lot of his leftover jank. I guess fthrow/dthrow isn't a DI mixup anymore? Looks more like fthrow is a reverse bthrow. Dthrow is... I'm not sure. Combo starter or kill setup, I guess.

Aerial Spin Attack got some sweet buffs. Not sure if it needed them... But okay.

 

[mimgrim]

The most important change his new taunt he can do by canceling Fsmash.

Do an Fsmash (charged or uncharged) and rapidly mash downwards (I think back downwards might be the best way to do it) the control stick and he will cancel the Fsmash (before a hitbox comes out) and strike a pose.

He got 4th taunt yo.

Totally ups his meta.

EDIT - So while he can cancel his Fsmash into a taunt that taunt is also his new quickly tap up taunt taunt. Oh well. He can still cancel his Fsmash into it which is still funny.

Anyways.

Uthrow basically was changed so that it now works properly on Fox level fall speed at early percents. Haven't tried it out on semi-ffers like Roy yet. Dthrow is for everyone else it seems and seems to go into a guaranteed Utilt and Usmash (Dair might even work at higher percents). I think Dtilt and Bair might also work decently with it but not quite sure.

I'm liking 3.6 Tink.

 

[Limitforce]

-Up Special (Spin Attack Aerial Version)
--BKB reduced to 20 from 45.
--KBG increased to 100 from 85.
--Sour-spot DMG decreased to 4 from 8.
--Sour-spot KBG increased to 100 from 55.
--The three different strength hits are active on frames 8-10, 11-15, and 16-34. Previously they were 8-9, 10-20, and 21-34.

Does this do what I think it does and reduce the window on strong hit to half its normal length? And a buff to the strong hits kill power to match?

 

[dvd]

Does the IASA frame on down tilt feel later to anyone else

EDIT:nope im just paranoid

 

[Samwisely]

Is it just me, or is bomb jumping weird now? It's not consistent on hit. Certain things need to be staled it looks like.

Edit: looks like you just have to hit center now, no drifting at all.

 

[SiberianGinseng]

How can Tink combo into his up special now that forward throw doesn't combo into it? It seems like up throw sends the enemy too high at kill percentages.

 

[AndrogynousOkami]

Is it just me, or is bomb jumping weird now? It's not consistent on hit. Certain things need to be staled it looks like.

Edit: looks like you just have to hit center now, no drifting at all.

I think drifting is still possible in the sense that you can move to one side during the startup of the spin attack. It looks like you don't get free hang time by delaying the spin attack like you did in 3.5. You gotta do it right away.

Also, there's a small explosion on blastline kill Spin Attack. Sweeeet.

I'm not quite sure how I feel about the throw changes. I really liked the dthrow/fthrow mixups, but I guess I'll learn to love it. I do like how fthrow is more of a positioning tool now, so you don't have to have your back to the ledge to chuck a fastfaller off.

How can Tink combo into his up special now that forward throw doesn't combo into it? It seems like up throw sends the enemy too high at kill percentages.

Looks like dtilt works great. Bair, too, if you can catch them with bad DI. Dthrow works on light floaties. Uthrow still works on the spacies. HAHAHAHAHA.

New sound effects, too. I complained a lot in 3.5 that I felt like I was hitting something with a stick compared to 3.02. I don't feel like that anymore, but I do feel like I'm chopping vegetables.

Better go dig up that old Cooking Mama alt.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

Is anyone else getting messed up by the Fsmash secret taunt? I have lost several games due to me randomly taunting while doing and Fsmash.

 

[Ezlo]

I love being able to taunt instead of fsmash, but that's just me. However, I don't like that they changed the IASA... I keep trying to run out of fsmash, but nothing happens. Fthrow messes me up sometimes, but I love everything else. :D

Btw, Good Mythical Morning is great.

 

[demonictoonlink]

I'm liking what I see from the new Toon Link. AC dairs from low platforms were a huge part of my game so that took a hit. We can still autocancel them from like the smashville platform with a double jump, but that means death if you're hit out of it. More platform cancels I guess!

Fsmash change feel fair lol

So for throws, any idea how to get the throw > UpB on non fast fallers for the kill? Something like down thrown -> quick bair -> UpB?

 

[Kulprit]

**** that 4th taunt. It's messed me up 6 times tonight and I lost a last stock high % match because of it. Such BS that it's even a thing. Pls PMDT don't do this to Tink.

 

[leelue]

It's a glitch. It's fixed as far as I know

 

[Limitforce]

After playing in tournament today, it feels as though on a large portion of the cast, upthrow loses all potential followups after only a little percent, while dthrow requires pretty high percent even to allow basic followups besides uptilt and upsmash.

Against a lot of characters it felt as though getting a grab had very little potential to lead into anything rewarding after they had a little percent on them.

Dthrow feels like it may as well have fixed knockback.

Space animal matchups actually feel harder to me than before tbh., but this is all my opinion

 

[CyberZixx]

I feel the same way. I got no idea what to do with Tink's grabs now. Feels really sloppy at the moment.

 

[Ezlo]

so I was experimenting with the grabs a bit today...
Uthrow (like we all thought) is for fast fallers mostly. It can combo into a few things at very low percents for semi fast fallers, but not much.
Bthrow and Fthrow are pretty much positioning. It's fun to throw people off the edge.
Dthrow is really good for Puff. For characters that fall faster, as long as your opponent is at a high enough percent that they can't tech before the IASA, you can combo or string pretty easily.

 

[mimgrim]

Utilt from Dthrow is pretty big, though, at the lower and mid (and maybe mid-high) percents because of Utilt being a good combo starter in general. And I think once they start getting to mid-high percents Dtilt might even be possible with precise fingers if you can do a "reverse crouch" think (holding diagonally back down should put him in crouch and make him turn around if I'm not mistaken at which point you want to quickly put the control stick back to neutral down so that he doesn't do a jab or anything (or you can just do a jab cancel into dtilit/another grab if you want I guess).

 

[CyberZixx]

I`m just disappointed because I feel his throw game was nerfed drastically and I don`t understand why. What was so wrong with the way the dthrow and fthrow mixup worked before? Or maybe it could of been a weaker version of 3.02 dthrow? plenty of character have a throw like that.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

While he has gotten nerfed in 3.6beta, He has a fantastic neutral and great punish game. He feels like one of the more solid characters right now in PM. This might be because he is almost impossible to CC which is most of the meta currently in PM.

 

[Limitforce]

Even utilt from dthrow seems to go pretty high for a punish on a lot of characters, his grabs feel a lot like marths kill game, where if you miss your % window, or you grab before the second window is there, you just have to let them go with a bthrow or fthrow.

 

[CyberZixx]

I feel like tink is now gonna more projectile campy than ever. which is unfortunate. but since we can't convert much off grab anymore It will need to be bombs for days. As long as Toon link is still a threat at mid and close range and can combo into kills moves well and convert in neutral he should be fine.

 

[mimgrim]

Tink's throw game isn't nerfed, just different. And, honestly, I would argue it to be better.

Uthrow is good for Fox/Falco/Wolf/Falcon and okayish on semi FFers at lower percents (and maybe be able to go through to mid percents as well on them) and will do fine enough until Dthrow works on the semi FFers. Dthrow is fantastic against pretty much almost every other fall-speed and weight combination with only the super heavies being a bit tricky, but I think that is more of a timing problem on my part then anything else. At low percents you get Utilt shenanigans from it, once you start getting them to about the mid percents Dtilt can combo from Dthrow nicely for a good follow-up and at the higher percents it can combo into stuff like Dair, Dsmash, and Usmash going for the fill. Dthrow is really good on floater and mid fallers, like really really good, way better then the Dthrow/Fthrow mix-up of 3.5. Uthrow actually works on true FFers now. Our throws on semi FFers only work good at low percents (Uthrow) or mid-high and higher (Dthrow) but against other classes it has been made better and more reliable. Personally I welcom the trade-off of 2 more reliable throws that aren't dependent on a 50/50 and work against more fall speed classes at the expense of not working as reliably against that on fall-speed class we had a good advantage on when we got a grab on them.

This might be because he is almost impossible to CC which is most of the meta currently in PM.

No he isn't lol.

 

[Limitforce]

yeah I definitely haven't experimented enough with unorthodox grounded follows for dthrow.

 

[.alizarin]

getting a stock cause the other guy didnt guess right was dumb lol

 

[jtm94]

His throws were changed because there was rarely a reason to even use the 50/50 when his upthrow was guaranteed into pretty much everything against everyone anyways. They removed the 50/50 and made upthrow/dthrow percent dependent so you use upthrow 70% of the time, then dthrow to end stocks.

dthrow starts going into things like utilt around 70ish? against characters like Mario and that leads directly into UpB. At later percent you can still do it utilt doesn't have that much KBG, and at percents like 100/110 you can just dthrow fsmash. You can get almost anything off of dthrow at KO percents to be honest. uair, nair, bair, fsmash, dsmash, upsmash,utilt, ftilt, fsmash. I agree with @ mimgrim before at high % you would lose upthrow follow ups and NEED to use the 50/50, but now there's just guaranteed things if you use the correct throw and fthrow and bthrow themselves are pretty fast, you can toss them to the ledge/off stage and dash attack to cover the tech.

When upthrow doesn't "true combo" you can get like 60% combos or more. You can harass pretty much any character with uairs because you are extremely advantaged in positioning and things like rang/bomb cover their horizontal escape options. I'm liking him a lot.

 

[CyberZixx]

points made. Sounds like I got a lot to mess with.

 

[mimgrim]

His throws were changed because there was rarely a reason to even use the 50/50 when his upthrow was guaranteed into pretty much everything against everyone anyways.

This is false. 3.5 Uthrow was horrible against true FFers at low percents, to where you would get punished for doing that to them even. Once you got them to higher percents it became more reliable against them but that has other problems in itself given the nature of the true FFers (read, Spacies and Falcon). Against average fallers it was okayish but mostly lead only to Uair and Up Special and then only at lower and maybe low-mid percents. And was basically useless against floaters. It was fantastic against semi FFers but that was about it. It was a good throw. But no where near as good as you exaggerated.

 

[jtm94]

I didn't play him much, I was taking a lot of what I have heard Lunchables say. He's been very vocal about how upthrow was pretty good in a ton of MUs and the mixups yielded little benefit. I understand completely that FFers escaped his throws safely, but that's also a non-issue.

 

[SiberianGinseng]

After playing around I found a couple things. First is that Down throw > down smash will hit on floaty characters (Tested on G&W only) at around 80%-120%. Not sure about other weights though. Also, up throw combos into twinkle spike or whatever everyone's gonna call it now, at about 20% (G&W) to 80% (Falcon). I think that grabs are going to be a lot bigger part of his gameplay now, personally.

 

[justseth]

I think I've found a new change to toon link. If you roll to a ledge then throw a bomb straight down, then the bomb will go down off the ledge instead of hitting the stage. Correct me if this isn't new.

 

[FPSWalrus]

Tink is great but I really ****ing hate this glitch fsmash. Lost too many rounds to this glitch
I used rob yesterday and finally managed to get somewhere in bracket, so I might pocket him for now while I figure out follow ups for grabs

 

[Ezlo]

We really need to come up with a name for his old fire spike. Twinkle spike won't work.

What about making it the lightning spike and changing the name of dtilt's spike to the crouch spike or whatever?

 

[Ola]

If you roll to a ledge then throw a bomb straight down, then the bomb will go down off the ledge instead of hitting the stage.

This was in previous versions, and young link could do it in Melee too.

On another note, I'm not huge on frame data, so what would be tink's fastest option after D-throw on floaties? (To beat out panic nairs from peach, luigi, etc)

 

[G13_Flux]

The thing about his throw game before was that it was too straight forward. it was two outcomes: you get a set up into your most powerful killing moves, or you get positional advantage. While it was a good improvement at the time (since 3.02s dthrow was basically combo at any percent and any DI, and was the only throw you would ever use lol), it was definitely still relatively uninteresting, and i can see how they went about improving it. (Im going to talk specifically about the current dthrow as compared to the 50/50 DI mixup from 3.5).

Now, instead of bhaving just two outcomes, you have many. You get the first hit basically guarenteed, except on heavier characters at lower percents. This first hit though has low enough KB that you are forced to use quicker options lower to the ground, that could POTENTIALLY lead to very rewarding options. In other words, you have to make a read or two in order to get your rewarding kill set up or combo string. you dont just get it for making the opponent guess wrong once. now the DI mixups occur spaced out between a couple hits, which can potentially lead to even more rewarding options than you could have gotten in 3.5: spikes, bad DI on a dsmash, an up b after a couple hits of racking damage, etc. however, you also have options that lead to nothing but minimal positional advantage, which may occur at low percents (when you can easily SDI utilt away with very minimal hitstun), or if the opponent can guess right a couple times, and DI "properly" for whatever set of combo moves or potential kill options you picked and just end up back in the middle of the stage. Then, there are a plethora of in between options, that may result in positional advantage with them offstage, directly above, or in tech chase position. the other important thing to note, is that they can now pick their direction, instead of being forced into one. heres an example of a few mix ups and options ive seen so far:

-dsmash and dair (non-spike) have almost exactly opposing surviving DIs. If you DI correctly for one, you DId horribly wrong for the other. 15 frames to connect dair (3 jumpsquat and 12 start up), is barely reactionable, and dsmash is not reactable. you can also mix in other things like bair, utilt, uair, fair, or upsmash to further confuse them into DIing wrong.

-at the ledge, it seems they can reliably DI inside to attempt to avoid things that send them directly offstage. at mid percents however on many characters, you can get regrabs from DI inside (although the angle is 90, the release point seems to be towards tinks back end). additionally, at mid - high percents, and on DI inside, you can mix betwen run forward > jump backwards > bair, or run forward > pivot ftilt. both are very unreactionable, as they are quick, and lend you a 50/50 DI mixup, that can be relatively rewarding if they DI wrong in either case (you get a combo that could potentially be followed up by a spike, or they get sent off stage at a bad angle). ive tested it, and marth at 100% is in hitstun for well long enough for you to pull a mix up like this off.

-up smash can kill well now again (especially on platforms) since it no longer has the 3.5 sourspot. ideal DI for the upsmash is inside and slightly down, which is terrible if you decide to utilt, bair, or dsmash instead.

-footstools are extremely reliable out of dthrow. not great for damage, but i guess it never hurts to throw a curve ball in.

-dthrow > up b is a thing on floaties at kill percents.

-theres obviously others, and it seems you can get pretty creative with this throw, which i like a lot.

-also, i think dthrow > jab > grab/something else is a thing at lower percents. ill have to test it tomorrow though.

 

[Zepy]

I'm really enjoying these new updates! Great matchup if you play a high-level Lucas