Too fast

[OneOutOfManyMore]

I was recently playing a friend in smash, and I was finding myself having some difficulty. He was playing as Pikachu, and I couldnt seem to play as well as I normally do. He was just too fast. Most of the people I play with play as slower people (by comparison), Bowser, Jiggly, Yoshi, Ganondorf, you get the idea. I realized that I have no idea what to do against fast characters in general. Pika I could stand up to, but a Fox would rip me apart. So basically, I was wondering how can a Kirby handle speedy characters? Is there some way to slow them down or will I need to find a way to move faster?

 

[nitro-blazer]

Don't try to chase, play defensive and wait for them to mess up. Stick to your crouch cancel and tilt game until an opening happens- With that speed, they're going to mess up eventually. Just try to go to the edge, get them off and edgeguard.

 

[OneOutOfManyMore]

I really hate having to play defensive, or at least heavily defensive, but if it works then it works. Thank you. I try it next time I play her.

 

[nitro-blazer]

Yeah, it's seond nature to me, but I'd like the speed to go on the offensive.

 

[Nashun]

If the fox wants you to go offensive, he'll make you go offensive with lasers. all he needs is a simple % or stock advantage and he'll force you to approach.

It's hard to go defensive against fox, anyways. fox is fast and playing defensive means using a lot of higher-priority moves to intercept his approach. you're going to need really nice spacing in order to play like this since fox is fast and the only way to beat that is through range and priority.

However, if you want to play defensive...ftilt and utilt for interrupting. wavedash for the spacing; GENERALLY backwards if you want the ftilt and forwards if you think you have balls and you want to utilt. dtilt is good too but it's only nice for pushing him back. IIRC fox grabs kirby when kirby's crouching so you gotta watch out for that. just try to get an utilt in and combo as well as you can.

I think offensive is the way to play this matchup, though. or at least not heavily defensive. If you play defensive you give fox a ton of room to move around and you don't want that. you want to apply a lot of pressure and hope he doesnt interrupt you with something gay like upsmash. the main thing to watch out for his is nair since it has infinity priority and kirby has a tough time beating it. try approaching with bair and use multiple jumps if you wanna bait his upsmash. once you get fox off the stage its a bit easier, just try to predict his recovery and use kirby's edgeguarding to keep him off. Fox on the stage is a beast so do as much of the fighting off the stage as possible.

playing defensive might be better for kirby, but fox's lasers help him dictate the flow of the game. kirby has no projectile and if fox has any sort of % advantage he has the power to camp until time runs out. he'll force you to approach if he doesnt want to do so himself.

 

[DeathscytheHello]

First off... I'd like to say one thing. Don't ever, ever expect your opponent to give you an opening. You gotta make the opening. That's what mindgames are all about.

Anyway, I'd say to fight this battle aggressively defensive. You can't go all-out against Fox, and you can't go defensive against him. You need a happy medium. It's hard to describe, but every time I've beaten a decent Fox, it's been the aggressive style.

It's a hard match; possibly my least favorite.

 

[Wayland]

In response to Nashun, can't Kirby just duck under Fox's lasers?

 

[Nashun]

Yes, which is why I mentioned the % advantage fox needs in order to be able to do that. In most tournaments, including MLG, when time runs out and both players have the same amount of stocks, the player with the lower % wins. Fox can laser until time runs out if he has the % or stock advantage. Even if Kirby ducks the lasers, he's still losing and he's forced to approach before time runs out.

 

[nitro-blazer]

In response to Nashun, can't Kirby just duck under Fox's lasers?

The lasers can hit Kirby while he's ducking if they're SHLed I believe.

And what I mean by defensive, is, not like "sit at the edge and wait", of course you have to approach, but be more cautious about it. It's harder to get an opening out of fast characters because they recover from their moves are so fast.

Of course Fox is relatively easy to edgeguard, but lets take a look at the first post. He's having problems with Pikachu. I just faced a Pikachu yesterday, and got destroyed (Mainly due to a large skill level difference.) Pikachu's a lot harder to edgeguard than Fox is.

 

[OneOutOfManyMore]

Thanks to all of you for helping me on this. I had her back over here today and I experimented a bit from some of the stuff you said and it really helped. I just needed to slow my game a little. Way to offensive.

 

[goateeguy]

The easiest way to avoid this situation is to simply not play characters like Kirby in those matches. Don't get me wrong, he's a fun character, but as you said, a fox would rip it apart. My only suggestion is to play cheap. Float really high and do a down-B or up-B and hope that the person you're playing is too stupid to do anything about it.

 

[DeathscytheHello]

The easiest way to avoid this situation is to simply not play characters like Kirby in those matches. Don't get me wrong, he's a fun character, but as you said, a fox would rip it apart. My only suggestion is to play cheap. Float really high and do a down-B or up-B and hope that the person you're playing is too stupid to do anything about it.

Oh, boy, here come these posts....

If we wanted to win the matches hands down, we wouldn't play Kirby. Kirby is a challenge to fight with. Kirby is an up-hill battle. We like that. He's far from easy to play with, and it's even harder to win with. If we merely wanted to win, we'd already be lame characters such as Fox.

P.S.- Those two things gotta be the worst ideas ever to do against a Fox. Here's why.

You start flying upwards, right? We can assume that if you need to be "cheap", then the other person would have to be decent. Will, since Kirby doesn't fly too fast, he's a sitting duck for Up-airs. But let's assume that you don't get ganked by an U-air. Now you move on with your plan. You either

A) Use the rock and get grabbed/smashed out of it.
B) Use the Final Cutter and realize that since the blade is practically useless after a certain decent, you can get hit by, well, anything. Without any jumps or anything. Against the shine.

 

[Buttcrust]

^ Liar. Stone owns all. Use it as much as possible.

 

[Samochan]

The easiest way to avoid this situation is to simply not play characters like Kirby in those matches. Don't get me wrong, he's a fun character, but as you said, a fox would rip it apart.

What about low tier matches genious? >_> Pika is low tier last time I checked. And no, stone and cutter do not own nor are cheap. ._. Plus these were casual matches, not tournament matches, so he can play whatever character he wants. >_>

 

[Buttcrust]

The stone makes you invincible and does a ton of damage.

 

[Tbacksha]

You aren’t invincible in stone you can get thrown, it is best used as move reserved for getting a bunch of people so preoccupied fighting each other that they all get knock. Perhaps if you are skilled enough with it that you can cancel out of it after you hit a standing enemy but before you touch the ground it’s a move worth using, but a opportunistic move to consider if fighting a single player. Besides if you were fighting any descent Pika player would use thunder before you transformed into stone.

Ontopic when I play againct Pika I try to avoid high aerial battles, but stay a jump away from the ground if trying to get in close.

 

[Buttcrust]

The stone is Kirby's best move by far. Quit being a noob. Learn to fight.

 

[Tbacksha]

Noob? Pardon, you are just saying it is the best Kirby move without any reason why. I am not saying it’s a horrible move, in fact if you have learned how to use it properly it is decent, but it is also not practical and easy to avoid. Don’t argue with me, I have a friend who constantly tries to get me with stone and I have spent a long time improving my use of that move myself. I have learned to fight, but your childish posts suggest you haven’t, now please stop bothering me and have a nice day.

 

[Wilhelmsan]

Stone sucks...its so slow.

 

[thesage]

The stone is Kirby's best move by far. Quit being a noob. Learn to fight.

Kirby's best move has to be stone. Make you invincible, neglible lag, so what if you can get thrown? You can get thrown anyways without being in stone.

 

[nitro-blazer]

Nah, it's obviously his copied Warlock punch.

 

[Dragon_Hawk]

Copied PK Flash > Warlock Punch

36 damage and it makes fireworks! It has to be better, amirite? The lag is completely negligible.

Okay, sarcasm aside, what tools does Kirby have for handling Pikachus specifically? I went a bunch of matches (no vids, sadly) against my smash-friend's Pikachu and I was finding he was an absolute pain. I know that Pikachu isn't an easy matchup for Kirby and I've gone through the Kirby guides (nitro's and t!mmy's) but I didn't really get much out of them... I kind of already knew what was in there. Pika is light and hard to edgeguard and packs a lot of damage in his smashes, his shffls are quick and he can (on some stages) force an approach.

So... with the whole, "mindgame him to death" stuff aside, what do you do versus Pikachu? I'm not really defensive in the matchup since Pika can force approach and giving him more control over the flow of the match is the last thing I want (it's weird but I'd rather consciously decide to go offensive or apply pressure rather than be forced into it by him spamming jolts despite the fact that both scenarios end up with the same result, which would be me trying to chase him and apply pressure but whatever) so I usually use F-air approaches. I watched a few matches of KK90 and Perfect_Shadow (they were old vids, sadly) and I can kind of get that F-airs and D-tilts (or even F-airs into D-tilts) are fairly decent for getting in on Pika, and I'm finding that spaced F-tilts stop SHFFLed N-airs when done correctly, but what else works? The real issue I'm having is killing him. U-tilt to B-air stops working well at higher percents and unless I predict/follow a roll or something I really have problems getting D-smashes and F-smashes on him.

So... Pika's giving me hell. I've got vague ideas on what to do against him, but I think some input would help.

 

[Tbacksha]

You are not invincible if you can be thrown so stop saying that the stone move makes you invincible, silly people.

 

[t!MmY]

...
Okay, sarcasm aside, what tools does Kirby have for handling Pikachus specifically?
...
Pika is light and hard to edgeguard and packs a lot of damage in his smashes, his shffls are quick and he can (on some stages) force an approach.
...
with the whole, "mindgame him to death" stuff aside, what do you do versus Pikachu?
...
Pika's giving me hell. I've got vague ideas on what to do against him, but I think some input would help.

To be blunt, Pikachu has all the advantages in this fight. He's faster, heavier, and has thunderjolts and the most powerful (uncharged) u-smash in the game. So, you really can't put "mindgame him to death" aside, because that's pretty much all Kirby has. Fortunately, Kirby is a big ball of mindgames (most people don't even see a Kirbycide coming a mile away).

If thunderjolt camping is giving you problems, you have a few options available. Move in just close enough to where you apply pressure with close combat attacks; use Copy to give you thunderjolts to spam; retreat and see if your opponent gets tired of sending futile thunderjolts (they're no where near as campable as SHL or vegetables).

You can use F-tilt as you move forward to nullify a thunderjolt arcing along the ground toward you. Platforms can be used to avoid, or out-camp, Pika. In one tournament, I had to play Pikachu who counterpicked me on Corneria specifically to thunderjolt camp and u-smash using the super-low ceiling to his advantage. I managed to win simply by Copying his thunderjolts and out-camping him. >_>

In general, you need to be very familiar with the distancing on Kirby's attacks and make good use of it to build up damage until you see an opportunity to hit with a strong attack (usually b-air or u-air). I only have one video of Kirby vs Pikachu, but at least it's a tournament match from TANG 19:

t!mmy (Kirby) vs Moc (Pikachu) 2006-09
You can even see the use of the "D-air Stun" technique at 00:25. ^_^

 

[Samochan]

I'm quite sure everyone here saying stone is very good is being sarcastic.

And if they're not.... All I can do is roll my eyes. >_>;

 

[Buttcrust]

Desert: Peach G&W Mario

I thought Peach's castle looked pretty green, and isn't there a lake out front?

But Pika can be tough to kill. The 3rd hit on the f-air does well, as does the b-air. The good thing about these is you don't have to combo into them. Just hit him.

"But he can shield and dodge!"

Mindgames! Seriously every move that connects in Smash has to be mindgamed to some extent. Do you think they let you hit them? He may block some, but he won't block them all. Heck, try a double b-air.

 

[DeathscytheHello]

To be blunt, Pikachu has all the advantages in this fight.

I was reading this and I realized, "Which character doesn't have all the advantages in a fight with Kirby?" I was thinking -- not very hard -- but I decided... no one. Not one person does Kirby do better than naturally. That's what makes him so much fun to play as -- it always seems to be an uphill battle! Thus, Kirby players = 1337. We have all the cards against us and we still seem to be awesome!

 

[t!MmY]

At least some characters don't have all the advantages in a fight. Mewtwo, Pichu, Bowser... basically, those down there with Kirby on the tier list. Lol.

 

[nitro-blazer]

Well, Some of the higher ones don't have all the advantages either. Falcon and Ganon, of course, they still have a big advantage, though. You have no idea how mad my partner gets when I can crouch under everything he throws at me, and those I can't duck under, I simply press 'L' and block em.

Pikachu > Me. The little rat's a pain to edgeguard, and easily out camps you. Plus, can't be Kirbycided easily, if at all. Mind you, the only Pikachu I faced was a lot better than me, so...

 

[Buttcrust]

Kirby beats Bowser and Mewtwo in my opinion. Pichu is even. Roy's not bad either.

But Marth is by far Kirby's easiest match-up.

 

[nitro-blazer]

Roy's suprisingly easy for me to take, TBH.

Marth, however... Hell naw. Sometimes it's easy to tell when Buttcrust is being sarcastic.

 

[Samochan]

Kirby beats Bowser and Mewtwo in my opinion. Pichu is even. Roy's not bad either.

I agree with Bowser, Mewtwo and Pichu being easy matchups, though Roy is really not that far off from marth. Marth can kill you when you're far off, but Roy kills you even easier when you're close, which is the place for kirby to be to get hits in. Roy's fsmash is very effective, though Roy is still slower, has worse recovery ect. If Bowser weren't so extremely powerful and had that fortress, kirby would pwn him hard. Bowser's flame works better against him than against kirby. :D Mewtwo's and Pichu's amazing recoveries kinda nullify Kirby's great edgeguarding game, but otherwise they're not that tough. And shadowball ftw. ;o

 

[OneOutOfManyMore]

Nitro blazer is right, Ganon has to be one of my best matches. God bless Kirby being spineless.

 

[nitro-blazer]

I agree with Bowser, Mewtwo and Pichu being easy matchups, though Roy is really not that far off from marth. Marth can kill you when you're far off, but Roy kills you even easier when you're close, which is the place for kirby to be to get hits in. Roy's fsmash is very effective, though Roy is still slower, has worse recovery ect. If Bowser weren't so extremely powerful and had that fortress, kirby would pwn him hard. Bowser's flame works better against him than against kirby. :D Mewtwo's and Pichu's amazing recoveries kinda nullify Kirby's great edgeguarding game, but otherwise they're not that tough. And shadowball ftw. ;o

But, you have to remember Roy isn't near as strong as most characters are in the air. Also, IIRC, Kirby's tilts spaced correctly put you right at Marth's tipper range, which isn't strong for Roy. So, if you space good, you can play without getting to his sweetspot. The difference is his speed and his recovery are enough to save you from a lot of trouble.

However, Roy's reverse blazer is a big trouble spot, with fixed knockback. I refuse to tell =] this , and he still doesn't know about it.

 

[t!MmY]

What about Roy's reverse blazer? If you're talking about the one-hit kill with it, the only puff that works on is Jiggly. Though I'm always amused when people try to do it to me.

 

[dai1313]

im more amused when i knock people around...

 

[Sushiman]

We should take this topic to the new Kirby Character Matchup thread, since it's going off-topic, now. Lock?