Too defensive for Fox?

[Rapid_Assassin]

My actual questions are after the rant...

***RANT TIME***

I'm trying to learn Fox right now because I need to learn someone who isn't bottom tier for a change. (it'd be nice to be able to counter pick someone, if I get good enough.)

I was playing casual matches vs. some random person today. So, I managed to scare the guy out of shooting projectiles that he had, going near me whatsoever, or really doing anything at all, because I powershielded probably about 75-90% of anything that he tried to use on me. Ok, now that I basically had him under my control, I just laser camped him.

What's the problem here? Well, the match lasted over 8 minutes. I still destroyed him because he kind of sucked, but I couldn't approach him. He wouldn't do anything dumb for me to capitalize on anymore, except for just stand there and take lasers up the rear end all day.

This wasn't a problem against the noob, but it's potentially a bigger problem against anyone that doesn't suck balls at the game... Against anyone better who does basically the same thing and has my kind of patience, I'd probably be able to get them to 999% if I wanted to, but they would not do anything else dumb for me to capitalize on, and destroy me if i tried to approach to get that last non-laser hit. It'd be another match that'd run out the timer.

***RANT OVER***

1. How the **** do you get anyone who has the patience of a saint to budge? I'm saying the same kind of people who don't care that they're being camped (including those that don't have a reason to care, like if they're ahead by a stock)

2. How do you approach people and not get owned?

3. What if nothing you do just outside their range (fakeouts and crap like that) would even get them to put their shield out or throw out an attack at you unless you attack first or get within their range and are unable to block?

4. Should I just give up?

Keep in mind when answering that I have HORRIBLE tech skill related to fast button mashing.. I'm not going to be waveshining anyone across the map anytime soon, seeing as I still have to get wavedashing and shorthopping down.. I can lcancel and powershield really well though.

 

[Miharu]

1. How the **** do you get anyone who has the patience of a saint to budge? I'm saying the same kind of people who don't care that they're being camped (including those that don't have a reason to care, like if they're ahead by a stock)

You're strategy is working. Laser them up until either two things happen: One, until they get pissed and run at you, which is perfect for you, or two, until any aerial/tilt/smash will kill them. At that point, pressure them with aerials, etc until you get a hit in.

2. How do you approach people and not get owned?

Don't telegraph your actions. Safe approaches are usually nair/dair into shine, or shine/jab into grabs, etc. If it's a dd camping character (Fox/Marth/CF), do empty shorthops and backwards wavelands to bait them into grabbing or aerialing, then you can run in and nair/grab, etc.

3. What if nothing you do just outside their range (fakeouts and crap like that) would even get them to put their shield out or throw out an attack at you unless you attack first or get within their range and are unable to block?

One option is to just shoot them, and keep on doing it, and follow the advice from the first section of my post. The second would just be to straight pressure with nair/shine. Throw in the occasional grab; your grab range is deceptively long with your dash grab (especially useful against a nair camping Falcon who likes to dd away right after the nair). Keep in mind I'm talking about dash attack cancelled grab here, not a dash/running JC grab.

4. Should I just give up?

Up to you.

Just work on perfecting your nair/dair approaches, and abuse them thoroughly once you get a hit in. Abuse your dash grab range as well. You'll have to force yourself to play a bit more aggressively against more efficient campers, which necessitates a solid shffling nair/dair and grab/dd game. However, camping is quite an effective strat against those who don't have an effective long range game (ie Marth, Sheik [laser spam > needle spam], Ganondorf, etc). Post some vids of your Fox if you can; it's a bit easier to give advice based on match play. Ask if you need anything else.

 

[brawlpro]

Make them approach you

shl and shdl :devil:

If not approach with shffl nairs > shine and be dash dancing when away from them.

 

[Miharu]

Did you even bother to read his post?

Or mine, for that matter?

 

[brawlpro]

No i did not read all of your post Hydro.

If you have HORRIBLE tech skill, you gotta start practicing it now because fox is the technical type, fox relies on short hops, and get the timing on wd-ing out of your shine because thats when you start practicing follow ups such as nair > shine > jc grab(kinda like wut hydro said <_<). Except there are a lot more combos, on characters that fall from a shine you go for the thunders, in which wavedashing out of a shield is also needed.

 

[Binx]

With fox I like to do lots of fakes, pulse dashes and circle jumps run through them, things like that, most people won't be able to predict you if you mix it up, after 3 or 5 times it gets stressful having a fox run at you aggressively, then you actually do run in and grab or dash dance until they spot dodge and nair them out of it, or shine wavedash grab and combo, its all about being the aggressor but not actually attacking if that makes any sense.

Or just laser and win that way, you still won, they still lost, I'd rather win that way than lose in a tourney match, not your fault.

 

[takieddine]

Emmy your style works for a lot of fox's matchups. You just have to learn how to run away and do it at the same time.

But fox really cant survive on lasers alone, you have to do the usual routine:
1. run away
2. lasers
3. wait for their approach.
4. counter their approach.

and repeat.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Make them approach you

That's what I already do. What if they aren't approaching me though? I can't make them, just try to trick them into it (it's a choice).

Did you even bother to read his post?

Or mine, for that matter?

Did anyone bother to read my post, really?

If you have HORRIBLE tech skill, you gotta start practicing it now because fox is the technical type, fox relies on short hops, and get the timing on wd-ing out of your shine because thats when you start practicing follow ups such as nair > shine > jc grab(kinda like wut hydro said <_<). Except there are a lot more combos, on characters that fall from a shine you go for the thunders, in which wavedashing out of a shield is also needed.

I've been practicing tech crap since 2005, and it's still not fully clicking. It's very slowly getting better though. I just mentioned that because I'm looking for something that I can have success with sometime before Brawl comes out.

With fox I like to do lots of fakes, pulse dashes and circle jumps run through them, things like that, most people won't be able to predict you if you mix it up, after 3 or 5 times it gets stressful having a fox run at you aggressively, then you actually do run in and grab or dash dance until they spot dodge and nair them out of it, or shine wavedash grab and combo, its all about being the aggressor but not actually attacking if that makes any sense.

Or just laser and win that way, you still won, they still lost, I'd rather win that way than lose in a tourney match, not your fault.

What if I find someone that simply doesn't fall for it? Like, I can't even get them to put a shield up without being the first to attack, or do an attack unless I'm in range and unable to block it.

Lol, if it were tourney I probably wouldn't have been Fox (at least not at this time). I'd have to get a lot better with him first.. ^_^

Emmy your style works for a lot of fox's matchups. You just have to learn how to run away and do it at the same time.

But fox really cant survive on lasers alone, you have to do the usual routine:
1. run away
2. lasers
3. wait for their approach.
4. counter their approach.

and repeat.

Uhhh... What do you think I was doing? Lasers at point blank range?

I'm looking for something I can approach with so I don't have to run out the timer every time I come across someone like this.

 

[Velox]

Predict where they're going to go to avoid you...

that was easy

 

[brawlpro]

If you have been practicing technical skill since like 05, and still can't waveshine....then go with peach or someone high tier until brawl comes out.

 

[ComboTurtle]

That's what I already do. What if they aren't approaching me though? I can't make them, just try to trick them into it (it's a choice).



Did anyone bother to read my post, really?



I've been practicing tech crap since 2005, and it's still not fully clicking. It's very slowly getting better though. I just mentioned that because I'm looking for something that I can have success with sometime before Brawl comes out.



What if I find someone that simply doesn't fall for it? Like, I can't even get them to put a shield up without being the first to attack, or do an attack unless I'm in range and unable to block it.

Lol, if it were tourney I probably wouldn't have been Fox (at least not at this time). I'd have to get a lot better with him first.. ^_^



Uhhh... What do you think I was doing? Lasers at point blank range?

I'm looking for something I can approach with so I don't have to run out the timer every time I come across someone like this.

if u cant short hop, are u just shooting lasers while standing? thats a good way to get some lag

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

If you have been practicing technical skill since like 05, and still can't waveshine....then go with peach or someone high tier until brawl comes out.

I've tried Peach a bunch. The thing I like about Fox is being able to kill people a lot faster.

if u cant short hop, are u just shooting lasers while standing? thats a good way to get some lag

Full jump double and triple lasers. Not as effective as SHDL, but also not as laggy as standing lasers. If they're not approaching at all that's not as much of an issue. If they do decide to approach, that's what I'm trying to get them to do anyway.. And if they're spamming their crap, I can powershield it.

 

[brawlpro]

How do you kill people faster if you have trouble wavedashing out of a shine...?

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

U-air, u-smash, shinespike kill people a LOT faster than getting them to any % that Peach's moves kill at (assuming no special turnip pulls, and they are at least decent at DI).

 

[brawlpro]

Note i said any other high tier i just used peach as an example.

Peach's dsmash and chaingrab on fox, falco, and falcon *****.

 

[Flarefox]

How do you kill people faster if you have trouble wavedashing out of a shine...?

Do "the Masashi."

 

[brawlpro]

you could also say do "the Aniki" if someone couldn't wavedash, right?

So those kind of answers don't work cuh.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Yeah but Masashi doesn't shorthop much.

 

[brawlpro]

He never short hops, btw mentioning pros in an advice thread = FAIL

 

[Goldkirby]

He never short hops, btw mentioning pros in an advice thread = FAIL

Actually he does short hop now, just not much. Masashi also waveshines occasionally in tourneys now too. Get wit it son! Also, not everybody needs to short hop everything to win. Full hopped aerials with fox still have many uses.




@ Emmy - If you want to get good before brawl, use your main's down B. That is the most broken down b ever

Anyways back on topic, if you can't approach them without you attacking first for them to shield, then do just that. Do an aerial attack right in front of them missing on purpose, then l-cancel that **** into a grab, then do the appropriate combos from there. Also, if someone like this isn't very good, you can usually get away with spamming high priority moves over and over in one spot on top of them. I recommend the b-air, since it is quite a good move, imo. This should work for you since you said you can l-cancel very well. Also, don't forget to laser spam just like you have been doing. Whenever you manage to pop them into the air, go for u-air juggling whenever possible, mixed with some laser spam when they are falling depending on the situation. Also, just doing jump canceled shines on people can be quite effective, since after a while, getting shined whenever they are close to you can annoy and frustrate them to the point where they start making mistakes. Dash dancing right out of their range, then going into an upsmash can catch people off guard sometimes.

Also, I really recommend you get fox's wave dash down, a hint for you is that it feels a lot like a single button press, rather then the two discrete presses you would feel with zelda. I believe fox's jump has a 4 frame period before leaving the ground, while zelda has an 8 frame. Learn to at least do 1 waveshine pretty much on command anytime you want so you can use it to set up for grabs or smashes. IMO, trying to waveshine people across stages isn't that useful unless you can get an easy gimp kill off it.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

@ Emmy - If you want to get good before brawl, use your main's down B. That is the most broken down b ever

Sheik was the first high tier I attempted to learn before Peach, for obvious reasons. I like being able to dashdance, seeing as I mess up on Sheik's wavedash too.

Anyways back on topic, if you can't approach them without you attacking first for them to shield, then do just that. Do an aerial attack right in front of them missing on purpose, then l-cancel that **** into a grab, then do the appropriate combos from there. Also, if someone like this isn't very good, you can usually get away with spamming high priority moves over and over in one spot on top of them. I recommend the b-air, since it is quite a good move, imo. This should work for you since you said you can l-cancel very well. Also, don't forget to laser spam just like you have been doing. Whenever you manage to pop them into the air, go for u-air juggling whenever possible, mixed with some laser spam when they are falling depending on the situation. Also, just doing jump canceled shines on people can be quite effective, since after a while, getting shined whenever they are close to you can annoy and frustrate them to the point where they start making mistakes. Dash dancing right out of their range, then going into an upsmash can catch people off guard sometimes.

I wasn't worried about beating this guy. What concerned me is that almost anyone who's on my level can probably do at least 60% from a grab, either through chaingrabs or comboing. And this guy managed to grab me and swat me out of my approaches often enough to be concerned about it if I had to fight someone better with a similar style. If he was able to do something that'd cause him to be a threat, i'd have run the timer out with laser spam from a distance. I don't want to be doing that every match though.

Anyway what do I do if they don't try to shield it normally? Like if they roll or run out of my grab range, or spotdodge after I land expecting the grab attempt? Basically how would I fight someone with a really good defensive game?

Also, I really recommend you get fox's wave dash down, a hint for you is that it feels a lot like a single button press, rather then the two discrete presses you would feel with zelda. I believe fox's jump has a 4 frame period before leaving the ground, while zelda has an 8 frame. Learn to at least do 1 waveshine pretty much on command anytime you want so you can use it to set up for grabs or smashes. IMO, trying to waveshine people across stages isn't that useful unless you can get an easy gimp kill off it.

I can occasionally get the wavedash right, but you're right, it's not Zelda's.. >_> I'd have to get it right 100% of the time before I worry about mixing other buttons with it (unless I want to side/up b off the edge like I used to do at least twice a match). And when you mean 1 waveshine, do you mean wavedash before the shine or after?

 

[Goldkirby]

Just to let you know, shiek's wavedash timing is the exact same as fox's. Same with the timing for the short hop. Shiek is my secondary just because a lot of the timing for stuff I do with fox is the exact same as shiek's timing. Oh, and it's fun do basically nothing but grabs and down smashes

If they run out of your dash range, you could probably just dash attack them and hit them while they try to run away. If you think they are gonna spot dodge, just land right next to them, wait for the dodge, then grab. If they roll, just chase them and hit them when the roll is finishing. I think that you aren't invincible at the end of the roll. Another thing you could do is jump behind them and try to land a bair or something, or maybe something as simple as just *walking* right past them, then f-smash right behind you. Usually by the time you walk right behind them, if they spot dodged, they are gonna get hit with the f-smash.

With the 1 waveshine, I mean wavedash out after they get hit with the shine, because that's when it is actually useful. A very good basic combo I like to do is shffl dair -> shine -> wavedash out -> upsmash/grab->uair.

 

[Miharu]

Just to let you know, shiek's wavedash timing is the exact same as fox's. Same with the timing for the short hop. Shiek is my secondary just because a lot of the timing for stuff I do with fox is the exact same as shiek's timing. Oh, and it's fun do basically nothing but grabs and down smashes

To play a decent Sheik, you have to be able to needle cancel effectively, and edgeguard extremely well. Chaining tilts, techchasing with usmash, etc.

If they run out of your dash range, you could probably just dash attack them and hit them while they try to run away. If you think they are gonna spot dodge, just land right next to them, wait for the dodge, then grab. If they roll, just chase them and hit them when the roll is finishing. I think that you aren't invincible at the end of the roll. Another thing you could do is jump behind them and try to land a bair or something, or maybe something as simple as just *walking* right past them, then f-smash right behind you. Usually by the time you walk right behind them, if they spot dodged, they are gonna get hit with the f-smash.

Fox's dash attack is pretty bad; usually if you do it,they can just shield it and punish you for it, unless you cross it so you'll be behind their shield after your dash attack. But in most cases, try to refrain from using it; a shffl'd nair usually serves much better. It's less punishable, and is easier to follow up on. Yes, running fsmash is pretty useful, and dd baiting them into spotdodging/rolling will usually result in a free grab/smash for you.

And my first post says a lot of these things -.-

 

[Junpappy]

If you have HORRIBLE tech skill, shouldn't that be your primary concern?

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

If you have HORRIBLE tech skill, shouldn't that be your primary concern?

Tech skill isn't everything. I played against a Falco in tournament once who can multishine well enough to break shields if he wanted to, but I 3 stocked him because he didn't think, at all. He'd fall for the same thing over and over, and I'd just kick him off the edge of the stage and grab the ledge. But judging him on tech skill alone vs. some other kid I didn't know, I thought he was going to kick my ***.

The reason it's not my main concern right now is because it's taking me a long time to learn it as compared with everyone else I know. There are some things I can do in training mode that I can't do once I get to a real match. And there are other things that I just can't comprehend how anyone can get their fingers to move fast enough for... For the most part I'm just letting it slowly sink in from playing against people whenever I get the chance to.

 

[Miharu]

Most people assume that tech skill progresses at the same rate as other aspects of gameplay.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Most people assume that tech skill progresses at the same rate as other aspects of gameplay.

Yeah, for me and many other people I met this simply isn't the case.

 

[brawlpro]

Do the Champ Combo if you like dash attacks.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

The Champ combo is fun.

 

[NG7]

There's one fakeout you haven't tried. The fakeout of the fakeout. ie. Outright attacking. Once you attack him observe how he reacts and just keep up with that.

Defensive fox may be your style, but if your offensive is lacking, just practice that. Let loose and go for the throat and learn as much as you can.

I'm not a great player but it's something you can try.