To be honest, I'm rather dissappointed...

[mkmelee]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in an interview many months ago, Sakurai mentioned that Brawl would completely transcend Melee, and characters would not only be getting visual makeovers, but major changes in their movesets. Many months later, so few of the 'veteran characters' have been improved, or even changed at all.
I'm sure many Smashers will be happy just to have Smash finally properly playable online, but in my opinion, if SSBB is to live up to all the hype, some changes for the better need to be made.

Back in Melee, some characters who were previously good such as Ness and Kirby were toned down, and ended up not being so great.
Many new characters such as Mewtwo, Yoshi, Zelda, G&W etc. also had various flaws which rather handicapped them in serious play. Again, I'm sure some people were happy just to see new faces, but many serious gamers would like to have this at least a little more balanced out.
Being able to have a fair match between a Falco and Ness, would be great, but honestly without considering big differences in skill level, such a situation was unlikely.

So, after hearing about Brawl and all its hype and glory, and hearing that our favourite characters would be like we'd never seen them before, I was so pumped to think of using a new and vastly improved Link with 'crazy combos' to beat down on previously higher tier characters. I dreamt of a Smash in which the difference in abilities and 'greatness' was not huge, and where nearly all characters would be actively used in serious play.

Unfortunately, I have not seen much of this happen. Mario does have pretty major changes, and yeah, Link CAN charge his up-b, but I'm talking about the overall way they play; not just a new move or two. Yeah, new moves do change the way the play, and generally, it's obvious that none of the characters play exactly as they used to, but I'm asking for major, much needed changes for the greater enjoyment and success of the game.

I know, I know, we haven't seen everything yet. Brawl has at least a few more months of development (though I wouldn't doubt a summer release) but I do understand that it's not hopeless, and my disappointment can be turned to merriness. What I'm talking about are things like giving Kirby his spike back and better aerials, not making Ness's up-b so useless against fast and proficient aerial fighters, just changing Zelda up almost entirely etc. (I know Ness might not even be in).

This isn't about me being a whiny baby who can't ever handle Foxes and Shieks because I always use lower tiers (in fact I consider myself fairly proficient with nearly every middle tier +) but I'd really like to be able to have more fun playing against my friends with all the other too often neglected characters.

So please, for the future of our children and the education in Iraq and Asian countries, America, vote for

I mean, I don't care that much if you don't care about my disappointment, but just read what I'm saying carefully, and you'll probably agree that more major changes for the better need to be made... For the Children of our Future!

 

[Silent_Jester]

I main Mewtwo.... and I can beat anyone i've ever played in my life. Tiers dont matter.

 

[mkmelee]

Alright. Maybe to you they don't, but most other serious players that have friends with greater skill levels than your own would tell you any day that they do. What can G&W pull off on a vicious Falco? If they're at around the same level of ability, and they're both playing well, Mr. G's going to be at a serious disadvantage, and being 2 or 3 stocked won't be unlikely.

 

[Silent_Jester]

G&W has his own advantages like his down a. He has a great sweet spot on most stages and is great in arial combat. (He's one of my favorite characters)

 

[Hydde]

I have to agree that players like DK looks very similar (i think his nasty 100%+ attack on Meta was a bug) but they dont necessarily need to revamp the moveset to get the player better.... for example...

If you remember in Melee, the speed was a deciding factor in the game... because players like DK (it seems he remained with more or less the same physics) coudnt cope wiht the fast fall and speed of lets say fox. Now all the characters seems to have more or less the same falling speed and this can help some floaty characters in Brawl, and not be the floating pinatas they were on melee.

Link´s movements remains almost the same... but the little changes i have seen on him willl have a major effect on his game. More range... some of his blows like the ftilt are faster and have more range, better recovery.. and who knows what more.

DK´s moveset maybe is the same.. but with more knockback and killing ability he can do better. Now it seems that you can kill your opponent in lower % si maybe his strong hits will need much less to kill someone.

 

[Hydde]

and we all know tiers exist. In casual playt it doenst matter but in a high compettitve battle..with both players having the same skills.. the handicap of the characters used matters a lot.

 

[mkmelee]

Well, I'm not sure if others have noticed, but I do believe that overall, Link moves slower. He animates a lot smoother, but he seems to run around/act at slower rate, though maybe Sakurai really did slow down the game. But Link may not even have a great spike anymore, seeing as how his up-b can be charged. Some may take this positively, but I'm guessing that this will just mean that his uncharged up-b will not be as good as it used to be.

I do feel that for some characters a new moveset/new moves are necessary, but for most, it's just their general mechanics, physics, and variation in abilities.

 

[raptorbaby10]

I just want to point out really quickly that there's pretty much no fighting game that doesn't have some sort of tier list. Their will always be a character that will be better in skill level and what not than the others, no matter the developers' hopes.

I also wanted to say that from all the in game footage that we've seen recently, we haven't really gotten any idea if any characters has been nerfed or anything. A lot of the previews just talk about the Smash Ball, and how the game feels, but not specific characters and such. For example, Kirby(who is not playable in the demos) could be returned to the powerhouse he was in 64.

We don't know until we actually get to play, or get some in depth impressions

 

[Doggalina]

Although the veterans look like they have similar moves, simple changes in things like hitboxes, knockback, and priority can change the way the character is played.

 

[mkmelee]

G&W has his own advantages like his down a. He has a great sweet spot on most stages and is great in arial combat. (He's one of my favorite characters)

Okay sir. How far have you gotten with your G&W aside from small gatherings?

Do you see my point. I'm talking about widespread usage of all characters. If characters are not changed this will not happen.

 

[vonfinell]

Personally I think that the little changes they are making should be enough to set tee difference between Melee and Brawl. Some characters should have their base stats changed (speed, weight, power) but their actual moves can stay the same. That's how we'll fix characters like Mewtwo, Ness, and Zelda.

P.S. Tiers are overglorified and pointless. On the official tier list is says "based on PERFORMANCE IN TOURNAMENTS" that just means that the better players tend to play as Fox, Marth, and Sheik. That just means the most popular way of skill relies on speed, but that doesn't mean character like G&W, Mewtwo, or even Pichu are worthless. Smash isn't completely balanced, but it is one of the most balanced fighters out there, despite what some people say.
But that isn't the topic of discussion here, is it?

 

[greenblob]

The actual Smash World site gives Kirby as an example of a character that didn't change much. But as you all know, Kirby was cheap in the original and sucks in Melee.
Ganondorf is Falcon's clone, and yet he plays completely differently. You can say the same for Young Link and Link and Roy and Marth. Dr. Mario, Falco, and Pichu play somewhat similarly, but their combos are different.

 

[Noypi_GjD]

Too lazy to write a paragraph.
1. We don't even know the final product of the game.
2. Although some characters appear to be similar they may have changed a lot of mechanics of their movesets like the differences from Fox -> Falco right now they appear to be similar in animation but lets not be so shallow. I don't mind the old movesets, Smash Bros is about nostalgia right lol, the tweaks they added to the characters are good enough for me.
3. Some characters may even be total remakes such as Lucas/Ike but I haven't heard much news on them, so it would be playing Ness and Marth like never before.
4. Smash Bros is supposed to be a party game, not necessarily a competitive game, to be honest who gives a **** on tiers, if someone doesn't want to get owned than they can play with people at their skill level, and if people want a challenge than go metagame. Competitive fighting games will always have tiers *rolls eyes*

 

[mkmelee]

I just want to point out really quickly that there's pretty much no fighting game that doesn't have some sort of tier list. Their will always be a character that will be better in skill level and what not than the others, no matter the developers' hopes.

I also wanted to say that from all the in game footage that we've seen recently, we haven't really gotten any idea if any characters has been nerfed or anything. A lot of the previews just talk about the Smash Ball, and how the game feels, but not specific characters and such. For example, Kirby(who is not playable in the demos) could be returned to the powerhouse he was in 64.

We don't know until we actually get to play, or get some in depth impressions

I know it's too early to make judgments about the game, but I'm quite certain that Link in Brawl aside from slight changes isn't very different from Link in melee.

Maybe all he needs is slight changes to be improved, but I've yet to see a demonstration of how he will be improved through slight changes.

And yeah, even in Brawl tiers will exist, I realize that. I'm just hoping that it's more balanced out and characters are more widely used because they can do at least fairly well against all characters or aren't majorly disadvantaged as too many were in Melee. To sum it up, I'm hoping for a better game. What's a sequel that doesn't make good improvements on the flaws of its predecessor?

Btw, thanks to most of you for not judging this thread blindly, and for posting without the ignorance that I'm so used to.

 

[Jammer]

Sorry I didn't read the whole first post, but I just wanted to correct you on one thing.

...and characters would not only be getting visual makeovers, but major changes in their movesets. Many months later, so few of the 'veteran characters' have been improved, or even changed at all.

I believe IGN did some gameplay, and they said that all the veterans were tweaked or overhauled. Look at Mario--he uses FLUDD for at least two of his moves: as a hovering move, and as a side b move. That's definitely a big difference from before.

 

[mkmelee]

Yeah I know, but the IGN staff generally sucks at Smash. Their own observations aren't enough for my needs.

And it's great that Mario is getting big changes/hopeful improvements.

Like I said, not all of them need an overhaul, though sometimes great additions are not necessary in the first place. Major or not, I just want improvements, which will hopefully equal greater balance.

 

[thesage]

I'm a Ness main and I play competitively. Lower tiered chars have defaults that make them harder to use in tournament play. For instance, Ness has no good cc'ing game and can be easily edgeguarded. GaW has NO defensive game. Mewtwo is light and eaisly combo'd and has no good KO moves and is hard to combo wtih, Zelda's game relies almost exclusively on her fair, bair and d-smash. Look at Fox, he can cc, combo, recover, he's midwieight, easy to combo with, fastest character in the game, has the fastest move in the game (shine), has the best move in the game (shine). His only downfall is that he's easily combo'd. Slight flaws in character design is what makes the tier list.

They way you play lower tiers is knowing what your flaws are that the character you're fighting will exploit and avoid exposing them.

 

[Jammer]

Yeah I know, but the IGN staff generally sucks at Smash. Their own observations aren't enough for my needs.

I totally agree that they are bad at Smash (it was figuratively painful to watch their gameplay videos), but it's hard to miss simple observations, like this one (from their article):

This Wii version uses Melee as its foundation and builds upwards from there. The control and fighting mechanic hasn't changed a bit…but every character has had their core attacks and abilities been balanced and fine-tuned. There are so many subtle changes to each character it's really hard to explain them without sounding like some sort of Smash Bros. snob.

I guess that's enough for me. Even though they may be bad at the actual playing of the game, I trust them to get a simple thing like that correct.

Cheers.

 

[mkmelee]

Yeah I know what you mean, but there's this simple fact. In order to understand the true needs in terms of changes in gameplay; both generally and character specifically; (in terms of competitive or serious play, which obviously matters most to the general community on SWF) you basically need to be a competitive or serious player who understands the depth and mechanics of the game.

For example, someone at IGN might say. "Well, Fightersmashman was a rather disappointing character back in Melee, but now that he has this giant flame ball firing move which he can charge to a great power level, he wrecks havoc! They definitely improved him."
Meanwhile, they may not know that Fightersmashman's moves do not work well with fireball attack. He is just too large and bulky and slow to actually charge it up to full power when fighting against fast/better characters in better hands, and his weak defenses/large size mean that there are limited situations in which he can charge without getting hit.

Yeah there's no such character, and it is slightly exaggerated, though after watching IGN play, I'm not so trustful in their words about gameplay, and such a scenario does become more realistic.

 

[Jammer]

Ahh, I see what you're saying. You're saying that you need to be a pro (or at least a good player) to know if the changes and improvements are actually for the better?

I guess I'll have to trust Sakurai on that one. If things are different, like IGN said, then I hope that the differences are improvements. I don't think Sakurai would make changes for the worse.

 

[Hydde]

while the guys at ign could be very good video game reporters.... it is required a real smash player to know what we want to know.

They can know that some things like how bowser sucked... but the in depth analysis goes much beyond that.

Just hardcore gamers know the limitation and in depth flaws of melee.

 

[SirroMinus1]

I main Mewtwo.... and I can beat anyone i've ever played in my life. Tiers dont matter.

sigh* the tiers does not matter when you play with your noobish friends. tiers mostly tournament based.

 

[GreenKirby]

If the all the veterans got a complete overhaul while assuming the game's development didn't start any earlier, the game wouldn't be released until Q1 2009. O_o

Would we REALLY want that? It'll make the extra two months we have right now seem like nothing.

 

[mkmelee]

Read please.

 

[GreenKirby]

I read it and it came off as you wanting veterans to have completely new movesets whereas tweaking the moves they have for balance is not only better, but less time consuming. :D

 

[mkmelee]

I totally agree that they are bad at Smash (it was figuratively painful to watch their gameplay videos), but it's hard to miss simple observations, like this one (from their article):



I guess that's enough for me. Even though they may be bad at the actual playing of the game, I trust them to get a simple thing like that correct.

Cheers.

Of course he wouldn't want to, but things happen unexpectedly. I'm sure they didn't intend on having only a small percentage of serious players actually regularly competing with the now 'Low-Tier' characters, but it's incredibly difficult to know exactly how things will end up, especially with a game like Smash that relies on soooo many different aspects and mechanics to determine how characters will work out. I'm sure they didn't intend for some characters to be amazingly cheap especially when fighting against characters that are further disadvantaged against those specific characters. But it happened.

However, they can still be smart about their development, and do their best to improve characters in much needed areas while maintaining stability.

 

[mkmelee]

Yeah I know, but the IGN staff generally sucks at Smash. Their own observations aren't enough for my needs.

And it's great that Mario is getting big changes/hopeful improvements.

Like I said, not all of them need an overhaul, though sometimes great additions are not necessary in the first place. Major or not, I just want improvements, which will hopefully equal greater balance.

Read please.

How do you tweak Ness's up-b so he has fairer matchups against tough characters/players in competitive play?

Well there's not much you can do when your using the same slow, restricted and situational up-b as a base.

Other characters can use solely tweaks. Kirby can actually spike, and his aerials (in particular his forward) could have longer range/ more useful effects.

 

[Alias]

basically you dont want tier in the game

im with you

i want to play pichu masters in a serious competitive match, but it goes against the nature of the game. There will be characters that will pwn, and characters you have to work a bit extra hard to do the same effect.

it comes with every fighter

 

[mkmelee]

Geez, people need to like actually read. Not just look at, but read and understand. If you have questions about anything your confused about, ask me about it.

Tiers WILL Exist. There's no way all characters can be so different yet so equal. They CAN however be more balanced than they used to be, and yes this is a very realistic option.

 

[iMichael]

I'm just happy Mario got the F.L.U.D.D. that's just way too cool!

 

[GreenKirby]

And one doesn't have to overhaul all of the original character's movesets to make that happen.

Cause that what you seem to be implying

 

[GimR]

Okay sir. How far have you gotten with your G&W aside from small gatherings?.

Have you ever heard of Dire Vulcan?

 

[mkmelee]

Yeah it actually is .

 

[Alias]

i know what you meant

i just put it in "tiers" cause its sort of the same

you want a "balanced" game. Which melee was very much. You cant have lets say pichu in brawl in on par with Zamus/Snake

 

[mkmelee]

And one doesn't have to overhaul all of the original character's movesets to make that happen.

Cause that what you seem to be implying

How does specifically stating 'Like I said, not all of them need an overhaul, though sometimes great additions are not necessary in the first place. Major or not, I just want improvements, which will hopefully equal greater balance.' imply that everyone needs an overhaul?

 

[Alias]

Actually, i just realised how saying "melee was balanced" can be so easily attacked

cause the pros in the game only picked like a few characters, but hey...not everyone is a pro



i see my bad so dont attack it

 

[mkmelee]

Have you ever heard of Dire Vulcan?

No, and I'm sure there's a good reason why. Maybe because I'm not a G&W main/fan and that he hasn't won any of the top tournaments.

Seriously, I know some people seem to transcend tiers with their amazing low tiers. (See Fumi's Yoshi). However, that doesn't mean that they avoid all the difficulties that the low tiers experience under the hands of more blessed characters. They just have to put extra effort, strategy, and uniqueness to maintain victories.

Even still, it's rarely enough, especially in terms of top tournaments.

 

[gnosis]

I'd just like to say that the foundation of your disappointment, the interview were Sakurai claimed that every character would be completely remastered, never happened as far as I know.

All I remember Sakurai saying about character changes is that they would be reworked to improve aerial combat (thus we have this new floatiness, better aerial movement, better recovery, footstool jump, and other tweaks yet to be seen), and that 'a lot' of characters would offer a 'slightly' different flavor this time around. And that I can list too many examples of for me to bother, and I'm sure there's plenty left uncovered.

So basically I'm not disappointed since what happened is what I was expecting. :D

 

[mkmelee]

Hey you're probably right, though I still seem to remember a link to the interview being posted on the forums.

Regardless, I probably still would be disappointment if there were not dramatic improvements to veteran characters if I had not heard/remembered it.

 

[Hydde]

I'd just like to say that the foundation of your disappointment, the interview were Sakurai claimed that every character would be completely remastered, never happened as far as I know.

All I remember Sakurai saying about character changes is that they would be reworked to improve aerial combat (thus we have this new floatiness, better aerial movement, better recovery, footstool jump, and other tweaks yet to be seen), and that 'a lot' of characters would offer a 'slightly' different flavor this time around. And that I can list too many examples of for me to bother, and I'm sure there's plenty left uncovered.

So basically I'm not disappointed since what happened is what I was expecting. :D

you are right.-.. the slightly different flavor doesnt necesarrily mean complete overhaul.

Most of the characters in melee needed just changes on their htboxes and physics to do some good thing, while others needed more than just a litle tweak. But overall.. even a slightly different flavor can change players like Ness from "not good" to "hell yeah".