To all the foxes who are sad about losing jab kill setups

[luke_atyeo]

With the removal of one of foxes best tools and kill setups, it seems everyone's jumped onto the 'well this sucks fox cant kill at all now what a **** character' train.

So I wanted to put a message out there for all you fox players, dont give up and dont get sad, yes the repeated jab nonsense got removed but there are still some jab followups so jab as a setup tool isnt completely gone, but more than that fox is still a great character with many ways to kill.


Uair still remains a strong move that you can combo into from other moves, uair pressure to get them to airdodge into the ground still leads to usmash kills, fair can still drag people down into usmash kills, bair remains an absolutely amazing kill move thats relatively safe to throw out and is very underused, ledge trumping can lead to bair or dsmash kills, if you get a read on your opponents get up off ledge option you can get a fsmash kill (very good).

And lets not forget that fox is a bait and punish character, as long as he is fast and has usmash he can kill. Use your speed and movement to trick your opponents into whiffing and punish with usmash, this is by far your best kill option if you can learn how to trick opponents into whiffing, hell even the old walk back and fsmash where you just were (the mario special) can work just fine if done right.

Trust, I'm one of the best players in my entire country and I didnt use foxes jab setups that often for kills, bair is my most often used kill move in most matchups.
Its easy to get discouraged when something cool (and kinda easy and reliable) gets taken away from you, but the future for fox is much brighter than you think, stick it out and work hard, hard work will overcome opponents much better than jab setups will

 

[Pudgetalks]

Totally agree.
The new Jab can also lead in to a tippered down tilt which also will lead in to an Up-air.
We lose some stuff we get some stuff.

 

[anas abou]

i don't know why but i'm having more fun with after the nerf even though he's less competitively viable
maybe it's because of shine or laser? i don't know

 

[Gidy]

Can someone test this?

Middle part of Fox's Double Jab (The part that doesn't pop them up) in to perfect pivot Dsmash to kill.

 

[G-Sword]

Totally agree.
The new Jab can also lead in to a tippered down tilt which also will lead in to an Up-air.
We lose some stuff we get some stuff.

I'm guessing that is % dependant because it doesn't work at low % from what I noticed

 

[Pudgetalks]

I'm guessing that is % dependant because it doesn't work at low % from what I noticed

I'm pretty sure at low percents the second hit doesn't throw them up high enough so they can shield/buffer an option afterwards.

 

[Gidy]

 

[FUEGO!]

Holy ****, he's right. At high percents, the Jab Jab has a set knockback that puts them in an extended hitstun, leading to an upsmash follow-up reminiscent of D-air>upsmash or Soft Nair> upsmash, in that you have to do a sort of tech chase to catch them when they land.

 

[Foster J.]

Honestly Luke we can argue how the new change is for the better in the long run, but it's frame data was altered with more frames giving us less of a window.

And it honestly feels like we're constantly looking for the tipper even pre it's true combo setting. I did some testing regarding space'd 2nd jab hitting them upwards, I managed to get it for true on Sheik lowest at 130 and it works + after that, with Mario I had to get it to 140, but I haven't tested heavies but I'm guessing around 150 :^)

And that's hitting them while they are still in the air, the other way around would be waiting for an air dodge and then charging it, if air dodging is even possible. But even when they land they have to go through with the "landing" animation with is a few frames before they can raise their shield.... but did they have to make our frames longer??? Damn it.

But the fact we have to reach a quota to get it true is like MEH, cause you can DI it, I tried this on Falcon and it was VERY hard to hit as he's a heavy fast faller, in that situation JabJab Dsmash was a lot better against Falcon.

But honestly what I dislike the most is just how JabJab -> Turn around Utilt has become almost RNG like in terms of how you space it.
This is hilarious to do, jabjab Utilt Uair, dat 30 % string man so hard to do now

 

[Viewtiful Rain]

I'm not giving up on Fox. No jab lock, no problem besides down air to up smash is one of my favorite ways to get kills. That "nerf" kind of made Fox better. Fox main as a kid and always will be:

 

[G-Sword]

Honestly Luke we can argue how the new change is for the better in the long run, but it's frame data was altered with more frames giving us less of a window.

And it honestly feels like we're constantly looking for the tipper even pre it's true combo setting. I did some testing regarding space'd 2nd jab hitting them upwards, I managed to get it for true on Sheik lowest at 130 and it works + after that, with Mario I had to get it to 140, but I haven't tested heavies but I'm guessing around 150 :^)

And that's hitting them while they are still in the air, the other way around would be waiting for an air dodge and then charging it, if air dodging is even possible. But even when they land they have to go through with the "landing" animation with is a few frames before they can raise their shield.... but did they have to make our frames longer??? Damn it.

But the fact we have to reach a quota to get it true is like MEH, cause you can DI it, I tried this on Falcon and it was VERY hard to hit as he's a heavy fast faller, in that situation JabJab Dsmash was a lot better against Falcon.

But honestly what I dislike the most is just how JabJab -> Turn around Utilt has become almost RNG like in terms of how you space it.
This is hilarious to do, jabjab Utilt Uair, dat 30 % string man so hard to do now

Whats bull tho is that we have to wait until that high to get the jab jab usmash. The struggles with being fox smh

 

[Tino]

I was just learning that technique after I picked him up as a secondary. Well. it looks like it's no longer a priority now.

 

[Hom3fly]

Honestly, I think if any of us aspired to be the best player in the world, we'd need to admit that Fox cannot do it alone. Sad, but true. All of the great Fox players (short of maybe Megafox) had high tier secondaries even pre-patch. This puts me in a position where I cannot knowingly devote all of my time into my favorite character without also accepting that in certain matchups he's all but useless. With that same logic, if I'm going to need a pocket Sheik/Luigi/etc then why not just play those characters? I love Fox and honestly I know this patch isn't the end of the world for him but I cannot be the only one who's felt limited and has only had that feeling reinforced by the recent patch. I know there is much more potential in this character than what were seeing now. But with that same logic, will he even be useful against an optimized Luigi, Rosa, or Sheik? Sorry for ranting

 

[G-Sword]

Seems like jab jabx2 into ftilt works at about mid %

 

[theparadox]

Fox seems seems better to me after the nerf to his jab lock.

 

[tronfox64]

@ theparadox I agree. Lasers have reduced lag by 3 frames, jab can now confirm into its finisher thanks to an extra .4% hitbox, shine is 50% larger (in terms of hitbox), has much better knockback, and lasts twice as long, and Jab2 still has confirms. I honestly think this patch was a major blessing for Fox.

 

[Viewtiful Rain]

Honestly, I think if any of us aspired to be the best player in the world, we'd need to admit that Fox cannot do it alone. Sad, but true. All of the great Fox players (short of maybe Megafox) had high tier secondaries even pre-patch. This puts me in a position where I cannot knowingly devote all of my time into my favorite character without also accepting that in certain matchups he's all but useless. With that same logic, if I'm going to need a pocket Sheik/Luigi/etc then why not just play those characters? I love Fox and honestly I know this patch isn't the end of the world for him but I cannot be the only one who's felt limited and has only had that feeling reinforced by the recent patch. I know there is much more potential in this character than what were seeing now. But with that same logic, will he even be useful against an optimized Luigi, Rosa, or Sheik? Sorry for ranting

Personally, I think Fox can handle those matchups but us Fox players have to play to his strengths and not be too reckless. Luigi can combo like hell, Rosalina has Luma to absorb lasers and interrupt your momentum so you have to separate them and capitalize. Sheik is one of those characters that I think has Fox's problems, she can do damage but she has difficulty in getting KOs. At least, that's what I've seen with those match ups

 

[theparadox]

Fox has a lot of untapped potential that has yet to be mastered and explored. I can see him becoming a big threat to the meta as the meta game evolves.

 

[M@v]

Was going to mention what Larry said but someone already posted the tweet. I've gotten it to work on some characters; ill need to lab it and find out if it is indeed everyone. I haven't gotten much training room time in; just trying it in game.

@DEHF have you been able to get some more lab time in on it?

Also, Rapid jab is actually fairly decent now. The new hitbox that sucks them in makes it much safer. In fact, I'm pretty sure Yoshi can't even nair out of it anymore unless you miss with the initial suck in hitbox, or if you get greedy and hold the jab for too long.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Shofu was being a little whiny beach in the Ontario FB group and whining about it being gone. I am glad to see the boards have been more positive.

I agree, Rapid jab now feels a lot like a Little Mac rapid jab, I'm fairly pleased with it honestly. Characters who used to be able to escape out of it no longer can (no more Yoshi N-airing out early).

I think Sheik definitely got worse for Fox though.

 

[Foster J.]

Shofu was being a little whiny beach in the Ontario FB group and whining about it being gone. I am glad to see the boards have been more positive.

I agree, Rapid jab now feels a lot like a Little Mac rapid jab, I'm fairly pleased with it honestly. Characters who used to be able to escape out of it no longer can (no more Yoshi N-airing out early).

I think Sheik definitely got worse for Fox though.

I think Sonic got a lot worse, since we can't just juggle him up he's a lot harder to deal with.
I agree there's ups and downs to the Jab, all the faster jabbers like Falcon / Sheik got a lot easier to deal % to, but the MU's we REKT got more even, sure perfect spaced jabs is always a thing, but at this point it feels more like a mixup than an actual setup we can depend on.

When you used this gimmick it's hard not to love it, so I can't blame Shofu's outburst at first, but was it necessary to patch out? Couldn't Sakurai just have given us a finisher with the jab boxing? All I know is I miss JabJab Utilt combos.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I think Sonic got a lot worse, since we can't just juggle him up he's a lot harder to deal with.
I agree there's ups and downs to the Jab, all the faster jabbers like Falcon / Sheik got a lot easier to deal % to, but the MU's we REKT got more even, sure perfect spaced jabs is always a thing, but at this point it feels more like a mixup than an actual setup we can depend on.

When you used this gimmick it's hard not to love it, so I can't blame Shofu's outburst at first, but was it necessary to patch out? Couldn't Sakurai just have given us a finisher with the jab boxing? All I know is I miss JabJab Utilt combos.

I've never been a fan of gimmicks tbh, never really liked the ICs in any smash game. Sonic might be worse, but imo he still loses to Fox due to us having the better neutral game and actually being able to keep up with him. (I know a lot of people think Sonic beats Fox, but even pre-patch I've disagreed with that).

But yes, it lost its reliability as a setup, it's now a really good damage racker but that's about it. I feel Foxes now have to play extra sneaky as Fox to find openings, our most reliable combo starter is now the frame 3 u-tilt.