Tier wars pt.2

[Mr.Random]

Remember during the beginning of Melee's tournament scene there was a huge debate over if Marth or Roy is better? It's time to start that again PM style. Now that Roy is viable I feel it's ok to compare them. I'll start off by saying that IMO Roy has better kill moves then Marth and are easier to land.

 

[Seraphim.]

I would give Marth the edge still, better recovery than Roy. The gap isn't as large as it was in Melee but Roy will still have more of a hard time than Marth for the most part.

 

[Sethlon]

Roy has much more consistency with his kill moves at higher percent (and man does he have a lot of them...fsmash, dsmash, bair, flare blade, DEDxx>), whereas Marth has much more explosive kill power (tip fsmash/dair spike can kill at practically any percent if you land them in the right spot). I'm curious to see which between the two will end up being more valuable.

 

[Aenglaan]

I think we can all agree that Roy is far easier to use and master than Marth. Roy doesn't need to worry as much about spacing compared to Marth. However, Marth's spacing works in his benefit, as he can avoid attacks easier and do more damage. Also, Marth has a much better recovery and is more agile overall.

At this point, I find it difficult to say which character is better. I guess only time will tell.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I think we can all agree that Roy is far easier to use and master than Marth. Roy doesn't need to worry as much about spacing compared to Marth. However, Marth's spacing works in his benefit, as he can avoid attacks easier and do more damage. Also, Marth has a much better recovery and is more agile overall.

I disagree with most of this. Roy still requires excellent spacing to use correctly, and even occasionally benefits from a tipper with moves like flare blade (lower KB angle, iirc) and dtilt (can follow up with another dtilt or ground move). Not to mention, Marth takes less work to master defensive spacing, whereas Roy must be far more mindful of where his opponent can reach instead of throwing out ranged moves with frame advantage. I concede that Roy's spacing is simpler to learn, but it is definitely not simpler master.
Roy's recovery is fairly underrated at this point. Either that or Marth's is overrated. The fact is, they both have fairly weak recoveries. They can usually recover distance-wise if they aren't hit at a low angle, and rely heavily on sweetspotting the ledge. Marth's advantage in this regard comes down to floatiness and a faster-moving but arguably less effective up-b.
I would also argue that Roy is the more agile of the two thanks to his faster falling speed and lower short hop, even if he is ever-so-slightly slower on the ground.



Honestly, I think the biggest advantage Marth has in this comparison is his grab game. He effectively covers his sourspot with grabs, and sweetspots are much easier to get off a grab followup for Marth. Marth's tipper system and grab game simply synergize much more effectively than Roy's, yet Roy is forced to play the same exact grab game because his close-range attacks either aren't fast enough or can be crouch cancelled too easily to effectively deal with pressure up close (although they're still more effective than Marth's arsenal in general).
That's not to say Roy has no advantages, he definitely has better finishers and a ton of amazing moves, but I think Marth will have a lot of solid MUs where Roy doesn't, and not so much vice versa.

 

[Mr.Random]

I disagree with most of this. Roy still requires excellent spacing to use correctly, and even occasionally benefits from a tipper with moves like flare blade (lower KB angle, iirc) and dtilt (can follow up with another dtilt or ground move). Not to mention, Marth takes less work to master defensive spacing, whereas Roy must be far more mindful of where his opponent can reach instead of throwing out ranged moves with frame advantage. I concede that Roy's spacing is simpler to learn, but it is definitely not simpler master.
Roy's recovery is fairly underrated at this point. Either that or Marth's is overrated. The fact is, they both have fairly weak recoveries. They can usually recover distance-wise if they aren't hit at a low angle, and rely heavily on sweetspotting the ledge. Marth's advantage in this regard comes down to floatiness and a faster-moving but arguably less effective up-b.
I would also argue that Roy is the more agile of the two thanks to his faster falling speed and lower short hop, even if he is ever-so-slightly slower on the ground.



Honestly, I think the biggest advantage Marth has in this comparison is his grab game. He effectively covers his sourspot with grabs, and sweetspots are much easier to get off a grab followup for Marth. Marth's tipper system and grab game simply synergize much more effectively than Roy's, yet Roy is forced to play the same exact grab game because his close-range attacks either aren't fast enough or can be crouch cancelled too easily to effectively deal with pressure up close (although they're still more effective than Marth's arsenal in general).
That's not to say Roy has no advantages, he definitely has better finishers and a ton of amazing moves, but I think Marth will have a lot of solid MUs where Roy doesn't, and not so much vice versa.

Doesn't Nair break crouch canceling? I do it at low percents. And what about DED? I agree that Roy's recovery in his game is on par with Marth's.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Roy has the fire or ph13r...(sorry I just had to say that no one else did).

I find Roy to be funner and easier to play as I don't need to worry about tippers although hitting a tipper forward smash as Marth is so satisfying.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Doesn't Nair break crouch canceling? I do it at low percents. And what about DED? I agree that Roy's recovery in his game is on par with Marth's.

I believe that the first hit of nair will break CC, but I'm unsure about the second (I know it didn't in Melee but it might have been changed, I've been using the first hit without bothering to experiment too much). Likewise, DED > > v should break CC and DED > > ^ should pop them up for the fourth hit or other great followups at medium percents. The problem with these is the speed at which they can be performed. Nair requires a precursory hop and DED requires the first two hits, so the spacing required to break CC without getting grabbed or otherwise punished first is fairly precise against characters with good reach. In the end, these moves will work, particularly nair in all of it's godliness, but you won't always be able to set it up right, and when you can't grabs are an efficient, relatively safe option. At this point, Marth's advantages over Roy become a bit more recognizable because they're both forced to rely on a similar grab game should their other options not be available.

 

[Mr.Random]

Roy has the fire or ph13r...(sorry I just had to say that no one else did).

I find Roy to be funner and easier to play as I don't need to worry about tippers although hitting a tipper forward smash as Marth is so satisfying.

Marth is boring and he doesn't have fire. I agree Roy is a boss. HE IS SO MUCH FUN TO PLAY AS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Blank Mauser]

Roy's weight is also a factor. I feel like he gets combo'd easier. Not sure how much the difference is.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Marth is fun one of my favorite characters Roy is just funner and easier.

Does anyone have a list of longest wavedashes for PM 3.0?I want to know I belive Marth's was longer in Melee,but what about PM?

 

[Mr.Random]

Roy's weight is also a factor. I feel like he gets combo'd easier. Not sure how much the difference is.

Yeah Roy gets combo'd harder.

 

[Spiffykins]

Marth is fun one of my favorite characters Roy is just funner and easier.

Does anyone have a list of longest wavedashes for PM 3.0?I want to know I belive Marth's was longer in Melee,but what about PM?

99% sure Marth's is still slightly longer, but Roy's is still really good.

 

[1MachGO]

IMO, Marth vs. Roy

1. Roy's SHFFL is slightly better than Marth's
The landing lag on Roy's aerials feel a bit slower than Marth's, but Roy's better SHFFL allows him to approach with aerials and capitalize off an opponent's mistake with greater ease. With that said, Marth does have SH Double Fair/SH Fair>Uair, and when correctly spaced, his attacks tend to be safer on block due to his positioning.

2. Marth's grab game is better
Not only is Marth's grab range longer than Roy's, but his throw game and set ups just compliment his tipper mechanic very well. His uthrow is harder to DI, fthrow/dthrow can set up for fsmash/dtilt gimps in certain situations, and his greater speed/WD distance lets him tech chase better. Roy's throws can be a little jank, he might have some weird set ups with dthrow vs. really light characters but its hard to say.

3. Overall, Marth is more mobile than Roy
Roy has the better SHFFL, but Marth has a higher jump, better recovery, faster run, and longer wavedash. The difference isn't huge, but it allows Marth to get around the stage faster and have more leniency when it comes to over extending himself for really high juggles and deep gimps.

4. Roy is lighter, gets combo'd way harder, and his recovery is still bad
For starters, Marth also gets combo'd badly and his recovery is pretty middle of the road in terms of usability. Roy is essentially a notch down from him... so any MU where these these attributes are exploited are going to be amplified. (You thought Marth's MU vs. Sheik was bad? LOL) With that said, Marth doesn't fall down from shine and Roy is technically harder to KO vertically. However, these positives are negligible when considering how easy he is to gimp and combo.

5. Roy's attacks are generally less situational
Like most buffed characters, all of Roy's attacks have some kind of improvement to make sure they are usable. When comparing Marth's usmash, dsmash, bair, side-b, and maybe even neutral b, to Roy's equivalents, the purpose of these moves are far less obvious. This extends to general play where Roy's attacks are much easier to space and attacks, like dtilt, have simple and highly effective follow ups. With Marth, there is a greater emphasis to optimize since set ups are far more volatile. In other words, Roy is a bit easier to play than Marth.

6. Marth (Specialist) Roy (Killing Machine)
Marth and Roy's combo games are pretty nuanced when it comes to how effective they are and the differences are kind of perfectly exemplified with their dtilts: Marth is all about putting the opponent in a bad position and Roy is all about building damage and setting up for a killing blow. I would say that they are tied in this category and that it really comes down to personal preference. Do you like spacing, edge guarding, and finesse? Pick Marth. Do you like versatility, aggression, and raw combos? Pick Roy. While I would contend that, on the whole, Marth has the edge over Roy, Roy is still pretty darn good and can be the better pick in certain MUs.

Marth is fun one of my favorite characters Roy is just funner and easier.

Does anyone have a list of longest wavedashes for PM 3.0?I want to know I belive Marth's was longer in Melee,but what about PM?

The official list isn't up yet. However, I can tell you that Roy has the 8th longest WD. Shorter than Marth's and marginally shorter than Diddy's.

 

[G13_Flux]

@MachGO, i agree with points 4, 5, and 6, but i think that points 1-3 arent correct at all. roys SHFFL is not slightly better than marths, its MUCH better than marths. roy can actually utilize full hops >falling fairs/nairs as a baiting and punishing technique. marth can only use those hardly as a defensive technique. normally a marth putting out full hops is asking to get punished, but thats not the case with roy, as he has a very good SHFFL.

for point 2, marths grab range is SLIGHTLY longer, but that doesnt really take too much away, and honestly, their throws lend them to pretty similar stuff. sure marth can dthrow >tipper fsmash unlike roy, but roy can very easily use several of his throws and DACUS into them, lending him very comparable damage output. theyre actually a little TOO similar to marths. and the only real difference is the increased KB on uthrow.

point 3 is perhaps the one i agree with the least, as i think that roy is a far more mobile character than marth. idk the exact stats, but even if roys WD and run speed are slightly (and its definitely slightly) shorter and slower than marths, his overall aerial mobility far surpasses marths. his fall speed allows him to cover much more space in a shorter amount of time than marth can, and it lends to a much more significant increase in mobility than the decreases caused by slight stat differences on the ground

in regards to spacing, i honestly think that marths benefit from tips actually doesnt play as huge of a role as it may seem. roy actually does benefit from tips, the difference is that he gets combos out of it. additionally, roy has ftilt, which either has the same range as marths fsmash, or could honestly be slightly longer. regardless of its actual length, its an amazing spacing tool, one of the best in the game actually, and it sets straight up into tech chases on fastfallers.

overall, i think when talking about marth and roy, its going to boil down to recovery, and efficient kills. marth has his very effective ken combo, and also has a very effective offstage edgeguarding game. roy is very difficult to use offstage, and does not have an efficient, bread and butter, low percent destroyer combo like the classic fair > dair. so in some MUs, marth may excell at getting quick and efficient kills, while in others, roy might excell because of his longer combo strings, and greater variety of kill combos. also, there are certain MUs where roys worse recovery and susceptibility to combos will hinder him much more than normal as well. because of his great mobility and fast, ranged attacks, however, i would expect that in most cases, roy would perform like falco, in that despite the fact that his recovery is bad, an amazing onstage game would prevent him from getting in sticky situations too often. just when those certain MUs come along where he can be exploited very easily, it would be detrimental. looking at the big picture, i think that roy does have a lot of potential to out-perform marth, its just MU dependent, and across the board, its going to come down to if roys onstage game can pull the falco effect and be enough to get past his horrible recovery.

 

[1MachGO]

@G13_Flux

You make a lot of fair points, but I would still defend a lot of my conclusions.

In regards to Roy's SHFFL vs. Marth's SHFFL, I was trying to consider a wider array of advantages. Roy's speed gives him a greater quantity of options, but Marth's limited functions are in greater quality. When optimized, Marth's defensive swipes and calculated approaches are actually very safe. Roy's SHFFL, while faster to initiate, tends to have higher endlag, lower shield stun, and thus, lower frame advantage. He has very little opportunity to create the same optimization Marth is capable of. Where Roy succeeds is in his ability to capitalize during small windows with aerials. An aspect of Marth's game which is very limited. However, in the end, both of these characters' air games really shine once the opponent is already airborne. I do concede that my word choice of "slightly" was incorrect, but I believe that your word choice of "much" is equally incorrect.

Ironically, the instance where you agree with me the least (point 3) is also the one where you are completely wrong. Having looked at the stats myself, I can guarantee that fallspeed and fast falling speed is likely the only category where Marth could be considered inferior to Roy in regards to mobility; the former of which isn't even definitely superior.

Run Speeds: Marth [1.8] > Roy [1.61] (Roy is a bit slower than Bowser)
Wavedash Distance: Marth [Ranked 6th] > Roy [Ranked 8th]
Run Jump Air Speeds: Marth [1.2] = Roy [1.2] (C. Falcon's is 2.1)
Air Mobility: Marth [0.5] = Roy [0.5]
Max Air Speed: Marth [0.9] = Roy [0.9]
Full Hop Jump Height: Marth [Ranked 13] > Roy [Ranked 29]
Double Jump Height: Marth > Roy [INCOMPLETE LIST]
Max Falling Speed: Roy [2.4] > Marth [2.2]
Fast Falling Speed: Roy [2.9] > Marth [2.5]

In terms of horizontal air mobility, the two are equally "meh" as their stats are slightly below average when compared to the rest of the cast. Both characters rely on their superior ground speed to close and create distances and Marth outclasses Roy in a modest, but noticeable regard (particularly when tech chasing). Roy's faster falling speed might give him faster downward mobility, but Marth's lower falling speed allows him to extend his below-average horizontal mobility and venture farther out offstage. He also has superior vertical height on his jumps; allowing him to convert big juggles or reach a high platform with greater ease. Marth is also more mobile on the ledge; a higher double jump and lower falling speed gives him more ledge hop options (and he has a better ledge dash). As I said before, Roy has the better SHFFL but if we are addressing OVERALL mobility, Marth is better.

Finally, your implication that Marth and Roy's grab games are equal doesn't make sense. Just knowing that Roy has lower ground speed and benefits from being close to his target immediately leads to the conclusion that DI susceptible throws are not as favorable to him as they are to Marth who benefits from creating small distances. Even if we compare their throws in a vacuum, Marth's all have better attributes. Marth's uthrow is harder to DI, fthrow has less knockback (again, harder to DI), and dthrow releases lower (better gimp/tech chase set ups).

 

[G13_Flux]

well, to be fair on roys SHFFL, it would be nice to see some frame data before judging too critically in either direction i suppose.

additionally i suppose i should have specified a little more when it comes to mobility. marth does have bigger jumps, better horizontal mobility, and more hang time in the air. but roy covers more space faster than marth does, and is much less susceptible from punishment from below. ill give an example MU where i think this point would really show: sheik. marth is known for having a bit of difficulty with sheik, because of her small stature, and ability to get beneath marth to make effective punishes. Roy on the other hand, can cover vertical space much quicker, preventing sheik from being able to get under roy as easily to make punishes. from this perspective, i was just trying to make the point that roy can make more punishes, and is better at avoiding certain punishments likewise. as i said before, roys spacing game is far from ineffective, and while marth benefits from more damage at a range, roy still has some moves that lend him to very effective defensive play through spacing (ftilt, fair, nair, jab). this possibility for spacing combined with roys ability to cover vertical space very quickly gives him advantages over marth in some MUs.

in regards to the grab and ground games, i have played both characters, and i guess i just dont notice a big enough difference in the way marths grabs work vs the way roys do. ill admit, theyre slightly different, but ive had no touble making effective use out of roys grab game for damage and leading into kills. the only advantage i would give to marth is that his ken combo can stem directly from his grab game, a bread and butter that roy doesnt quite posses on the same level out his grab game. i also admit that marth is indeed a slightly bit faster, and does have a slightly longer grab range. regardless, these slight increases dont net marth such an advantage that its game breaking. the differences here are very slight, and while there may be situations where marths increased stats do mean the difference between a grab a miss, those situations are of a very small percent.

anyways, im just pointing out what ive noticed from how roy plays while facing the people i normally play with. ive played marth a lot too, and those seem to be breakdown of differences that jump out of me. maybe we have a few different viewpoints on the character, but maybe as we play him more the details regarding the basic concepts of the character will become solidified.

 

[Mr.Random]

@G13_Flux

You make a lot of fair points, but I would still defend a lot of my conclusions.

In regards to Roy's SHFFL vs. Marth's SHFFL, I was trying to consider a wider array of advantages. Roy's speed gives him a greater quantity of options, but Marth's limited functions are in greater quality. When optimized, Marth's defensive swipes and calculated approaches are actually very safe. Roy's SHFFL, while faster to initiate, tends to have higher endlag, lower shield stun, and thus, lower frame advantage. He has very little opportunity to create the same optimization Marth is capable of. Where Roy succeeds is in his ability to capitalize during small windows with aerials. An aspect of Marth's game which is very limited. However, in the end, both of these characters' air games really shine once the opponent is already airborne. I do concede that my word choice of "slightly" was incorrect, but I believe that your word choice of "much" is equally incorrect.

Ironically, the instance where you agree with me the least (point 3) is also the one where you are completely wrong. Having looked at the stats myself, I can guarantee that fallspeed and fast falling speed is likely the only category where Marth could be considered inferior to Roy in regards to mobility; the former of which isn't even definitely superior.

Run Speeds: Marth [1.8] > Roy [1.61] (Roy is a bit slower than Bowser)
Wavedash Distance: Marth [Ranked 6th] > Roy [Ranked 8th]
Run Jump Air Speeds: Marth [1.2] = Roy [1.2] (C. Falcon's is 2.1)
Air Mobility: Marth [0.5] = Roy [0.5]
Max Air Speed: Marth [0.9] = Roy [0.9]
Full Hop Jump Height: Marth [Ranked 13] > Roy [Ranked 29]
Double Jump Height: Marth > Roy [INCOMPLETE LIST]
Max Falling Speed: Roy [2.4] > Marth [2.2]
Fast Falling Speed: Roy [2.9] > Marth [2.5]

In terms of horizontal air mobility, the two are equally "meh" as their stats are slightly below average when compared to the rest of the cast. Both characters rely on their superior ground speed to close and create distances and Marth outclasses Roy in a modest, but noticeable regard (particularly when tech chasing). Roy's faster falling speed might give him faster downward mobility, but Marth's lower falling speed allows him to extend his below-average horizontal mobility and venture farther out offstage. He also has superior vertical height on his jumps; allowing him to convert big juggles or reach a high platform with greater ease. Marth is also more mobile on the ledge; a higher double jump and lower falling speed gives him more ledge hop options (and he has a better ledge dash). As I said before, Roy has the better SHFFL but if we are addressing OVERALL mobility, Marth is better.

Finally, your implication that Marth and Roy's grab games are equal doesn't make sense. Just knowing that Roy has lower ground speed and benefits from being close to his target immediately leads to the conclusion that DI susceptible throws are not as favorable to him as they are to Marth who benefits from creating small distances. Even if we compare their throws in a vacuum, Marth's all have better attributes. Marth's uthrow is harder to DI, fthrow has less knockback (again, harder to DI), and dthrow releases lower (better gimp/tech chase set ups).

Do you have grab ranges?

 

[1MachGO]

Do you have grab ranges?

Marth: 14.82 (X-offset of grab collision) + .623 (Radius of grab collision) = 15.443
Roy: 13.9 (X-offset of grab collision) + .623 (Radius of grab collision) = 14.523
Not a huge difference, but Marth's better ground speed will amplify his range.

well, to be fair on roys SHFFL, it would be nice to see some frame data before judging too critically in either direction i suppose.

additionally i suppose i should have specified a little more when it comes to mobility. marth does have bigger jumps, better horizontal mobility, and more hang time in the air. but roy covers more space faster than marth does, and is much less susceptible from punishment from below. ill give an example MU where i think this point would really show: sheik. marth is known for having a bit of difficulty with sheik, because of her small stature, and ability to get beneath marth to make effective punishes. Roy on the other hand, can cover vertical space much quicker, preventing sheik from being able to get under roy as easily to make punishes. from this perspective, i was just trying to make the point that roy can make more punishes, and is better at avoiding certain punishments likewise. as i said before, roys spacing game is far from ineffective, and while marth benefits from more damage at a range, roy still has some moves that lend him to very effective defensive play through spacing (ftilt, fair, nair, jab). this possibility for spacing combined with roys ability to cover vertical space very quickly gives him advantages over marth in some MUs.

in regards to the grab and ground games, i have played both characters, and i guess i just dont notice a big enough difference in the way marths grabs work vs the way roys do. ill admit, theyre slightly different, but ive had no touble making effective use out of roys grab game for damage and leading into kills. the only advantage i would give to marth is that his ken combo can stem directly from his grab game, a bread and butter that roy doesnt quite posses on the same level out his grab game. i also admit that marth is indeed a slightly bit faster, and does have a slightly longer grab range. regardless, these slight increases dont net marth such an advantage that its game breaking. the differences here are very slight, and while there may be situations where marths increased stats do mean the difference between a grab a miss, those situations are of a very small percent.

anyways, im just pointing out what ive noticed from how roy plays while facing the people i normally play with. ive played marth a lot too, and those seem to be breakdown of differences that jump out of me. maybe we have a few different viewpoints on the character, but maybe as we play him more the details regarding the basic concepts of the character will become solidified.

Well, even without the frame data, you can still feel the lag differences between their aerials. Furthermore, Roy achieves maximum shieldstun by being close to his opponent. This essentially creates a catch 22. Either Roy spaces and does less damage (putting himself at great frame disadvantage) or spaces himself closer to the opponent and does more damage (having less frame disadvantage, but being closer to the opponent). Even if his Landing lag was equal to Marth's, the safeness of his attacks would still be inferior because of this flaw.


And Roy having an easier time vs. Sheik? Certainly not. The main problem Marth has in the MU is that the punish game is heavily skewed in Sheik's favor. Sheik simply has an easier time edge guarding, comboing, and converting from grabs than Marth and this effect is amplified by Marth's ideal combo weight and generally laggier attacks. Roy suffers from all of these problems and then some. His lower weight means he'll suffer more knockback (and thus, more histun) and his higher falling speed will allow Sheik to juggle him like a clown. Roy's recovery against the deadliest gimper in the game? Forget it. So what if Roy can SHFFL faster? The attacks can't be optimized and will be easier to punish. The best attribute Roy has over Marth in this MU is that Roy's dtilt is safer and yields far more reliable punishes than anything Marth can do. However, it still isn't enough to alleviate the amount of other setbacks he'll face in that MU.

I also still feel like you aren't looking at the logistic information with their grab games. The positional advantages created from Marth's throws just benefit him in so many obvious ways and to say that ken combos are the only pro is an oversimplification. Marth can tech chase better, uthrow chain grab spacies better, get tipper fsmashes, set up gimps more proficiently, etc. Roy's throws don't compliment him as well and his dtilt is his BnB for favorable positioning.

Despite this, I tend to agree with your final point and we'll have to see how everything pans out in the end.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Well, even without the frame data, you can still feel the lag differences between their aerials. Furthermore, Roy achieves maximum shieldstun by being close to his opponent. This essentially creates a catch 22. Either Roy spaces and does less damage (putting himself at great frame disadvantage) or spaces himself closer to the opponent and does more damage (having less frame disadvantage, but being closer to the opponent). Even if his Landing lag was equal to Marth's, the safeness of his attacks would still be inferior because of this flaw.

I'm not quite sure I agree that Roy has to choose between unsafe sweetspot and weak sourspot. It seems to be a common oversimplification, when really the sweetspot has respectable reach and doesn't decay with distance.
Really, spacing with Roy mostly involves hitting with the farthest reach of the center, which is usually still enough to outspace other characters with fair. Granted, not much is safe if the opponent has good grab range, but there are still other options. For example, nair is also hardly changed with a tipper (if at all, but I'm unsure on the details), yet it's a safe option on shields if spaced well.

 

[G13_Flux]

in terms of grabs, aside from the uthrow chain grab, ive never seen a noticable difference in the reward marth gets vs grabs vs the reward roy does. they may act differently out of grabs, but ive always been able to convert well with roy, so judging from my experience, i cant argue against that.

additionally, i was stating what ive seen in my experience against sheik. both of them are going to get punished hard off the edge, thats a given, but at least roy can combo sheik relatively well compared to marth, and he can also approach using aerials much more effectively than marth. marth gets punished much harder for putting himself in the air than roy does, due to his lack of ability to cover vertical space quickly.

with spacing, the shieldstun data is definitely in marths favor, but in terms of the range you can cover with safety, roy still can see eye to eye with marth. he may not be wearing down shields with quick fair > jab combos as well as marth, but he can still cover the same disjointed range. roy also has his ftilt, which is an amazingly good spacing tool (and has more range than any of marths tools), setting you up for tech chases on fast fallers, and putting others up in the air in a very unfavorable position. overall, ive been making very good use of spacing roy, it just doesnt always look exactly how marth would do it, since they have different tools.

 

[Oddyesy]

Roy has much more consistency with his kill moves at higher percent (and man does he have a lot of them...fsmash, dsmash, bair, flare blade, DEDxx>), whereas Marth has much more explosive kill power (tip fsmash/dair spike can kill at practically any percent if you land them in the right spot). I'm curious to see which between the two will end up being more valuable.

Roy's Bair kill is really sexy. It feels so good.

 

[1MachGO]

I'm not quite sure I agree that Roy has to choose between unsafe sweetspot and weak sourspot. It seems to be a common oversimplification, when really the sweetspot has respectable reach and doesn't decay with distance.
Really, spacing with Roy mostly involves hitting with the farthest reach of the center, which is usually still enough to outspace other characters with fair. Granted, not much is safe if the opponent has good grab range, but there are still other options. For example, nair is also hardly changed with a tipper (if at all, but I'm unsure on the details), yet it's a safe option on shields if spaced well.

Roy still attacks with a disjoint, but it isn't to the same extent as Marth. Furthermore, Roy's slightly slower attacks, run speed, and (seemingly) higher landing lag gives him less tools to make his spaced attacks safe against OoS options.

in terms of grabs, aside from the uthrow chain grab, ive never seen a noticable difference in the reward marth gets vs grabs vs the reward roy does. they may act differently out of grabs, but ive always been able to convert well with roy, so judging from my experience, i cant argue against that.

additionally, i was stating what ive seen in my experience against sheik. both of them are going to get punished hard off the edge, thats a given, but at least roy can combo sheik relatively well compared to marth, and he can also approach using aerials much more effectively than marth. marth gets punished much harder for putting himself in the air than roy does, due to his lack of ability to cover vertical space quickly.

with spacing, the shieldstun data is definitely in marths favor, but in terms of the range you can cover with safety, roy still can see eye to eye with marth. he may not be wearing down shields with quick fair > jab combos as well as marth, but he can still cover the same disjointed range. roy also has his ftilt, which is an amazingly good spacing tool (and has more range than any of marths tools), setting you up for tech chases on fast fallers, and putting others up in the air in a very unfavorable position. overall, ive been making very good use of spacing roy, it just doesnt always look exactly how marth would do it, since they have different tools.

Neither character should approach with aerials in the Sheik MU. Roy's SHFFL is better than Marth's, but his approaches still aren't as safe/fast as a character who has a shine, DJC, or a float cancel. If either character approached with an aerial, Sheik could easily just spot dodge/shield/CC and punish from there. Both character have to be extremely ground based in the MU with Marth primarily going for grab>aerials and Roy going for dtilt>aerials. I was never denying that Roy gains certain advantages in the MU, but the one you are mentioning specifically does not help him vs. Sheik.

Also, I never stated Roy lacks spacing tools. He has a TON of disjointed range like Marth. The main point is that Roy's SHFFL/Aerials and Marth's SHFFL/Aerials are different and one set isn't dramatically superior to the other.

 

[G13_Flux]

i was just adding an additional point about spacing because it was mentioned by someone else.

additionally, i wasnt really trying to describe the way that one would go about playing the sheik MU as much as I was trying to point out a fair source of punishes that sheik gets in the marth MU. sheik wont get as many punishes with roy in the air as she will against marth. i guess that was the main point i was trying to make, and just to say that there do exist instances where roys attributes will prevent him from certain situations where marth would be in trouble.

as far as the MU goes, both of them do have a tough time approaching sheik in the air often, but roy has an easier time doing it, and while its not effective to center your play around approaching with a fair or nair (against sheik at least), there are going to be points in the MU where i have found that it is useful to approach with aerials, provided its not excessive. a nair can cover a spot dogde, and properly spaced fairs > dairs can do so as well. throwing in spaced ftilts as well are good for keeping sheik at bay and preventing rush ins. the main points that sheik has in the MU are the needles, and the edguarding. that goes for both roy and marth, but the main differences between the two sets of MUs that i see are in how neutral game > combo transitions work, and how combo > kill transitions work.

 

[Ripple]

sethlon please have the PMBR make a new B-throw for roy. you and I both know its terrible and has literally 0 use

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Roy's up b need the most changing!

Make it go 20-50% farther.

 

[Mr.Random]

I think Roy's recovery is the only thing that needs to be buffed. Nothing crazy but maybe like a better double jump or more distance on the up b would be nice.

 

[Sethlon]

sethlon please have the PMBR make a new B-throw for roy. you and I both know its terrible and has literally 0 use

It is actually a little better than Melee's. Can't remember if its lower angle or better knockback, but its more useful for actually throwing people backwards. Could be useful if you know when people are trying to DI out of dthrow combos, IMO.

 

[Mr.Random]

It is actually a little better than Melee's. Can't remember if its lower angle or better knockback, but its more useful for actually throwing people backwards. Could be useful if you know when people are trying to DI out of dthrow combos, IMO.

They should make his dacus easier to perform. What do you guys think of Roy vs. Marth themselves? I think them vs. each other is fairly even.

 

[Shadic]

You can't make his DACUS easier without altering his jumpstart.

 

[Hipuru]

Overall as a Marth and a Roy main I think it's safe to assume that Roy (in my opinion) has much more kill potential than Marth. Roy racks up a lot of damage slowly while Marth racks up little damage way quicker but has a harder time KOing his enemies. To make long story short Roy is stronger than Marth.

 

[Hipuru]

As for recovery I'd say they are both on par.

 

[FireBall Stars]

Even though Roy is much better than before I'd still put Marth over him. Mostly because of Marth's neutral game being more flexible while remaining with less risks overall.

 

[G13_Flux]

their recovery is definitely not on par with each other. roys falls quite short from marths just due to his fall speed and shorter up b distance. however i will say that his up b does provide great coverage against on stage edge guarders. his sword poke very nicely and last throughout the whole move, really protecting him.

marths neutral game is also a tad more flexible because of the differences in speed and grab range. however, roy has ftilt and better punishing capabilities from in the air, so i think their neutral games even out relatively well.

honestly i think the ken combo is the one aspect (in addition to recovery) that makes it very difficult for roy to overcome marth, just because its such an efficient and quick killer, and roy doesnt have anything quite like it.

sure there is the spacing as well with marth and his tips being better than roys, but roy makes up for that in higher damage output and combo potential across the board.

 

[Mr.Random]

their recovery is definitely not on par with each other. roys falls quite short from marths just due to his fall speed and shorter up b distance. however i will say that his up b does provide great coverage against on stage edge guarders. his sword poke very nicely and last throughout the whole move, really protecting him.

marths neutral game is also a tad more flexible because of the differences in speed and grab range. however, roy has ftilt and better punishing capabilities from in the air, so i think their neutral games even out relatively well.

honestly i think the ken combo is the one aspect (in addition to recovery) that makes it very difficult for roy to overcome marth, just because its such an efficient and quick killer, and roy doesnt have anything quite like it.

sure there is the spacing as well with marth and his tips being better than roys, but roy makes up for that in higher damage output and combo potential across the board.

Roy's recovery is just horrible. A ledgehop bair will usually take him out with no effort.

 

[Sai_]

I really dislike Roy's vertical recovery. Using his side-B is good for horizontal movement, but going up is just horrendous and frustrating. I think he should get the same benefit Mario gets from his up-B: walljumping from up-B. One can set up a really cheap kill by throwing Roy of the ledge and spiking him at a low percentage since Roy can't go up very far.

honestly i think the ken combo is the one aspect (in addition to recovery) that makes it very difficult for roy to overcome marth, just because its such an efficient and quick killer, and roy doesnt have anything quite like it.

Actually, Roy sort of has a ken combo, except getting the Dair spike is extremely hard; you basically have to align your feet with the head of your opponent to get the spike, where as imo Marth has a better leeway for his Dair.

Roy has better control of his surroundings, especially with his down smash. If an opponent gets behind you to avoid gett Fsmashed, Roy can Dsmash to send them up and continue to attack and maybe end with a Bair; Marth's Dsmash is a bit slower.

Overall, both have very different playing styles:
Marth focuses on spacing
Roy focuses on quick damage out-put for explosive kills

So instead of discussing who's better, we can say that both have different play styles, since Project M wants to achieve a balanced roster and I hope it wants to avoid having a tier list, too.

 

[G13_Flux]

I understand that they both have different play styles, believe me. I also believe that Roy is an incredibly strong character. All I'm saying is that since this thread is entitled "tier wars pt. 2," the main focus of it really should be focusing on where Roy falls in relation to the rest of the cast in the tier list. Likewise, marth is obviously a go-to for comparison since he is already a well known, good contender. Roy had lots of options for killing, more than marth in fact, but it's just going to take a lot of proving that his options are more EFFICIENT than marths, And his on stage play needs to show he can get past the recovery weakness. Those elements will be key to the central goal of this thread.

 

[Sai_]

Marth, if used appropriately, can be far more efficient at Roy because of his amazing speed. He has good control of air game and ground game.

However, one thing I noticed as a Roy main is that P:M improved Roy's aerial game out of the waters. I think he's on par with Marth in terms of that, but Roy has better ground game because of his improved DED, especially his DED x↑x (the down hit that spikes) which is very good for ledge guarding and pretty much guarantees a kill. His Ftilt is amazingly long and is good to keep space or just jabbing your enemy into the blast sound. Alongside with his improved aerial game, Dtilts can help you get back to your aerial game.

I think they are both on par except Marth's recovery is better because if you hit someone at the start of the attack with up+B, you'll send them flying at moderately high percentages, whereas Roy's up+B does multiple hits and has very weak knock back, meaning people can take advantage of the landing lag if they do manage to get hit. Marth's up+B is also faster than Roy's.

 

[KariteSama]

However, one thing I noticed as a Roy main is that P:M improved Roy's aerial game out of the waters. I think he's on par with Marth in terms of that

What do you mean by aerial game? Do you mean in neutral position? Off the stage? Comboing? Juggling?

Marth can dominate the neutral game with Fair (see Ken) due to his unique spacing. He also is far better at ledge guarding off the stage due to his slower fall speed and longer vertical recovery. Roy's fall speed allows to to combo better though and uair chains are crazy. He also doesn't have the huge weakness underneath him when he is in the air because he is better at getting down to the stage.

 

[G13_Flux]

Well as much as DED xx^ is a great kill move, It requires quite stringent timing against players who are good at mixing up their recovery. Its useful sometimes sure, but I wouldn't go so far to call it bread and butter. Roy's most efficient kill options in my opinion come from set ups into his fsmash (uair, fair, sourspot dair, and even more on fast fallers), set ups into or edge guards from neutral b, and set ups into bair. Those right there pretty much cover his combo game at any realistic location on stage or at any realistic killing percent provided the opponent is not too floaty. His DED gives him access to kills via tech chases and punishing poor ground positioning, DI, and defense in general, and I would say it's less reliable than the above mentioned things, though still useful. Then you have things like dair, whose efficiency I'll leave to be determined one I can be convinced through gameplay from myself and others that it can be consistently set up into off the edge without much difficulty. It can kill vertically from the ground at mid-high percent, but that's typically later than his main options. After this there are things like the rest of smashes, counter, and the rare up throw, but they get kills a much smaller portion of the time.

As far as marth goes, his main killer is the fair > dair combo. After this, he relies heavily on edge guards, which he does pretty efficiently, and fsmash (though he has far less ways of reliably setting up into fsmash, and on less characters). After this, he doesn't have much other than dsmash, nair, or uair at high percents.

My view atm is that marth is going to have an easier time in space animal MUs and some of the other swordsman MU because of his efficient ways to set up edge guards and Ken combos on ffers (seriously look at what M2K does with marth in these MUs), and his ability to out space many of the other disjointed characters. Roy might have an easier time across the board though because of his more numerous options that kill at relatively low percents compared to when marth would kill.

Its already been said that a lot of the metagame has yet to be unfolded, however. As time goes on though, I will be very interested to see who is getting kills at lower percents on average, and still out surviving their opponent