Tier List Update Thread

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Yay! A serious discussion! In order to participate, please:

Step 0: Read all of the steps.
Step 1: Use Courier New
Step 2: Quote this post:

Base

| | || | | || || | | |
| 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 |
| X | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 |
| X | X | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 |
| X | X | X | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 |
| X | X | X | X | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 |
| X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 4 | 4 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 4 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 |

Step 3: Don't quote from this step down!
Step 4: Fill in your own matchup info!
Step 5: Make sure it looks as pretty as the original before posting!
Step 6: Read this explanation:

This is a matchup grid. The numbers in it mean the following:

1 = [C] is really, really, bad against [R]
2 = [C] is bad against [R]
3 = [C] is kinda bad against [R]
4 = [C] is equal against [R]
5 = [C] is kinda good against [R]
6 = [C] is good against [R]
7 = [C] is really, really good against [R]

Where [C] is the column, and [R] is the row.

For example, you can see that I have under mario, a blue 3 in the luigi row. That means that mario is good against luigi.

The diagonal will always be 3. Bottom half of the diagonal is ignored since it should be symmetric.
This thread is for submitting your match-up list. I will not accept all lists. I will take input from:

• People who got top 32 at the most recent Apex.
• People who got top 8 at the most recent Zenith.
• Well-known, proficient online players.
• Well-known, recognizable, proficient players from the community.

• I will consult with a secret group of advanced/veteran players if your opinion should be counted if I don't recognize you, or if you are from outside NA. So, if you have like, no posts on smashboards and you haven't played with any real good players or you haven't been to a tournament, etc., don't even bother.
• I won't count posts that are obviously trolling.

NOTE 1:
This needs to be done partially due to the changes in the NA rulesets. Construct your matchup based on a very proficient player at character X playing against a very proficient player at character Y on DREAMLAND ONLY. The reason for this is because Dreamland is Neutral, and so in a set of 3 (or 5) Dreamland can always be played on the last set. And Dreamland is always the first level played on.

NOTE 2:
If you want to change your mind in the future, edit your ORIGINAL post, and quote it in a new post. Do not do this more than once a month.

The next post will describe how the tier list will be calculated.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Spoiler: How the tier list is calculated

I will have a google doc spreadsheet that has all of the submitted matchups.

Essentially I will add together all the spreadsheets and divide by 3 to get an average for a matchup

I may give some people's opinion more weight, maybe like, your weight is proportional to LOG2(apex rank)

Then, for each character, you add up all their matchups (if they are missing a row you just go to the column matchup for the other character and take 6 - value).

The characters are then ranked based on the total sum.

Tiebreakers go to whoever is better in the matchup between the two characters.

N-way ties go to the characters that are better against higher tier characters.

I might do 2 passes on the average matchup list: One to get the total sum, then use the total sum as a weight in the individual matchups to generate a new matchup chart. Then the tier list taken from that sum would be taking into account how well a character does against characters that are good overall. Iterating this forever would give a good idea of Tier categories (S, A, B, C, D, etc)

Spoiler: Current Tier list

1. 67.2857142857
2. 63.1428571429
3. 57.7142857143
4. 57.4285714286
5. 48.7142857143
6. 48.5714285714
7. 42.8571428571
8. 40.8571428571
9. 39.4285714286
10. 38.7142857143
11. 38.1428571429
12. 33.1428571429

Includes input from:

Spoiler: 2014-04-23, W = 1, Herbert Von Karajan

1. 67
2. 64
3. 59
4. 58
5. 50
6. 47
7. 45
8. 44
9. 42
10. 35
11. 34
12. 31

Spoiler: 2014-04-23, W = 1, The Z

1. 63
2. 62
3. 57
4. 57
5. 48
6. 47
7. 45
8. 45
9. 41
10. 40
11. 38
12. 33

Spoiler: 2014-04-24, W = 0.5, Greginator

1. 69
2. 64
3. 62
4. 60
5. 53
6. 52
7. 41
8. 40
9. 38
10. 37
11. 32
12. 28

Spoiler: 2014-04-24, W = 1, Cobrevolution

1. 71
2. 64
3. 57
4. 53
5. 51
6. 47
7. 45
8. 43
9. 40
10. 38
11. 34
12. 33

[/quote]

 

[MrMarbles]

i'm not going to participate because there are so many match ups that i don't know so it would be wrong for me to vote. but this is a cool idea and long overdue

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

My Matchup chart:

ugh gotta change it cause of dirk king

 

[The Star King]

Not enough numbers :'(

I would really prefer 7 instead of 5 at least

I might do this anyway maybe

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Fine I'll change it to 7.

 

[Mr Bushido]

Spoiler: MY MATCHUP CHART

| ||| | || | || |||
| 4 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 4 |
| 3 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 4 |
| 3 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 6 | 3 | 3 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 4 |
| 3 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 6 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 4 |
| 3 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 4 | 6 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 7 | 6 | 3 |
| 2 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 2 | 3 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 3 |
| 3 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 6 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 6 | 5 |
| 2 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 5 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 4 | 6 | 5 |
| 2 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 2 | 3 | 3 |
| 2 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 4 | 6 | 4 | 6 | 3 |
| 2 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 5 | 2 | 4 | 3 |
| 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 4 |

Spoiler: leading to an average of

5.36
5.27

4.81
4.81

4
3.91
3.72

3.37
3.37

3.27
3.09

2.63

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Some notes:

Took long enough for a DL only tier list. Good stuff Karajan. I'll discuss with people as usual.

Random note, as this is out of 7, every matchup should add up to 8 including both the Column and Row.

Also, the diagonal will always be 4, not 3. Also, when calculating your final average, I am currently not including the ditto (so /11.)

Finally, I would have put the characters in order by the previous tier list. Would make it easier than the somewhat random order that there is here (where Jiggs is oddly next to Pikachu)

| | || | | || || | | |
| 4 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 6 | 3 | 5 | 5 | 0 | 6 | 2 |
| 0 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 5 | 5 | 0 | 6 | 4 |
| X | X | 4 | 0 | 4 | 6 | 4 | 6 | 7 | 4 | 7 | 3 |
| X | X | X | 4 | 4 | 6 | 4 | 6 | 7 | 4 | 7 | 5 |
| X | X | X | X | 4 | 7 | 4 | 6 | 6 | 4 | 7 | 4 |
| 2 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 4 | 2 | 3 | 5 | 3 | 5 | 2 |
| X | X | X | X | X | 6 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 4 | 6 | 0 |
| X | X | X | X | X | 5 | X | 4 | 6 | 4 | 6 | 0 |
| 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 3 | 5 | 3 |
| X | X | X | X | X | 5 | X | 5 | 5 | 4 | 6 | 0 |
| 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 4 | 2 |
| X | X | X | X | X | 6 | X | 6 | 5 | X | 6 | 4 |

For now, I am kind of avoiding everyone outside of the top 3 and yoshi. I'll input the rest later. Ignore the rest of the chart for now. I was in an editing haze.

Pikachu: 6, 6, 7, 7, 7, 5, 6, 6, 5, 6, 4, 6
Kirby : 5, 5, 7, 7, 6, 5, 6, 6, 4, 5, 3, 5
Falcon : 6, 4, 6, 6, 7, 4, 6, 5, 3, 5, 3, 6
Yoshi: 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 3, 5, 4, 2, 5, 2, 6

Pikachu: 5.916667
Kirby: 5.333333
Falcon: 5.083333
Yoshi: 4.583333

I'll do the rest on a later day, working.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

I have a spreadsheet that I am going to plop all the things into.

Only worry about doing above the diagonal. The spreadsheet takes care of the rest. You can fill out the whole thing but I will only plug in the top part.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I have a spreadsheet that I am going to plop all the things into.

Only worry about doing above the diagonal. The spreadsheet takes care of the rest. You can fill out the whole thing but I will only plug in the top part.

I realize that, I only put in the bottom since i was curious and I wanted to make sure all of the numbers added up properly

 

[Mr Bushido]

Good thing Karajan's list as well as mine are accurate, looks like most of the community are lazy pricks who would rather just post some half-hearted list over actually filling a matchup chart.

 

[thegreginator]

| | || | | || || | | |
| 4 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 3 | 7 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 3 |
| X | 4 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 5 | 2 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 3 |
| X | X | 4 | 5 | 3 | 6 | 2 | 6 | 7 | 6 | 7 | 3 |
| X | X | X | 4 | 2 | 6 | 2 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 7 | 5 |
| X | X | X | X | 4 | 7 | 4 | 6 | 5 | 7 | 7 | 3 |
| X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 1 | 3 | 5 | 3 | 4 | 3 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 6 | 7 | 6 | 7 | 5 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 6 | 4 | 6 | 3 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 4 | 5 | 3 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 5 | 2 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 3 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 |


RESULTS

1. 69
2. 64
3. 62
4. 60
5. 53
6. 52
7. 42
   
8. 41
   
9. 38
   
10. 36
    
11. 32
12. 27

I have the results outputs automated in Excel if anyone's interested. Although on second thought it's probably more effective to not know the tier order when you submit the matchup chart so there's less confirmation bias involved.

Prediction: Everyone's top 4-6 will be the same and the bottom 6 will be all over the place.

 

[asianaussie]

i never thought i would see the day where link actually rises above ness

and a tear fell from his eye

 

[NovaSmash]

link is not better than luigi even on hyrule

 

[asianaussie]

link is better than kirby on hyrule

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I'm a Kirby standing on the left slope of Hyrule up tilting with a lead and I can't hear you.

 

[Sangoku]

You can't hear me because the sound of my BOMBS exploding on your face is too loud.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Did you all not read the part about dreamland only

And Koro, finish your chart!

Either way I think the tier list from just me and the Z is perfect:

• 65

• 63

• 58

• 57.5

• 48.5

• 46.5

• 44

• 43.5

• 39.5

• 38.5

• 37.5

• 34.5

I have the results outputs automated in Excel if anyone's interested. Although on second thought it's probably more effective to not know the tier order when you submit the matchup chart so there's less confirmation bias involved.

Your results are wrong, your ness is supposed to be 28.
4+2+2+2+4+1+4+ 40-(6+7+6+7+5)

Actually most of your results thing is messed up. I have the correct outcome in the Current Tier List spoiler

 

[NovaSmash]

Is our ruleset dreamland only now?

 

[Cobrevolution]

Is our ruleset dreamland only now?

The reason for this is because Dreamland is Neutral, and so in a set of 3 (or 5) Dreamland can always be played on the last set. And Dreamland is always the first level played on.

which is to say, it's the most important stage as of right now to base a list on

 

[Shears]

Is our ruleset dreamland only now?

God I hope not. What ever happened to America being the standard and America setting the trend? Now we're just a bunch of Japanese followers conforming like a bunch of communists.

 

[Cobrevolution]

| | || | | || || | | |
| 4 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 6 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 2 |
| X | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 2 | 4 | 5 | 4 | 6 | 3 |
| X | X | 4 | 3 | 3 | 5 | 2 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 6 | 3 |
| X | X | X | 4 | 3 | 6 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 7 | 4 |
| X | X | X | X | 4 | 6 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 7 | 7 | 4 |
| X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 2 | 3 | 6 | 4 | 6 | 5 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 5 | 7 | 5 | 7 | 5 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 6 | 5 | 6 | 4 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 3 | 5 | 3 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 6 | 3 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 3 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 |

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

71
64
57
53
51
47
45
43
40
38
34
33

lol you would

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Did you all not read the part about dreamland only

And Koro, finish your chart!

Either way I think the tier list from just me and the Z is perfect:

• 65

• 63

• 58

• 57.5

• 48.5

• 46.5

• 44

• 43.5

• 39.5

• 38.5

• 37.5

• 34.5

Your results are wrong, your ness is supposed to be 28.
4+2+2+2+4+1+4+ 40-(6+7+6+7+5)

Actually most of your results thing is messed up. I have the correct outcome in the Current Tier List spoiler

Samus too good

And ness is hillarious, goes from 4th best ages ago to this.

 

[asianaussie]

third best*

people actually thought he was better than fox and falcon

 

[rjgbadger]

And now we have people thinking that Falcon is better than Fox :/

 

[asianaussie]

if we're being weeaboos and playing DL-only, then he probably is

 

[NovaSmash]

Fox destroys falcon on dreamland, falcon is too easy to gimp.

 

[rawrimamonster]

Fox destroys falcon on dreamland, falcon is too easy to gimp.

Even as a Fox main, I can easily say that depends on how fruity falcon is willing to be. If it's a good patient falcon, they'll just camp the top platform, away from lasers, run from approaches and wait for the grab which leads to a single repeated combo which is basically a free kill (which is basically high level falcon on falcon as well as of now).

Fox on the other hand has to work 4 times as hard, and has to have flawless execution or he's going to die...because of the stage + his recovery, it's as simple as that.

As of right now, I think Falcon/Fox is a 50/50 match up. They can both wreck the living **** out of eachother, but if the Falcon and Fox are on even ground skill wise I think if Falcons willing to be a bit fruity and camp it out for grabs, autocombos might take it, especially since dreamland is Falcon's baby.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Stop ****ing talking about matchups and just ****ing submit matchup charts godddamn

 

[NovaSmash]

nevermind..

 

[Mr Bushido]

Falcon is a dumbass

 

[Gammelnorsk]

| | || | | || || | | |
| 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 |
| X | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 |
| X | X | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 |
| X | X | X | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 |
| X | X | X | X | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 |
| X | X | X | X | X | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 9 | 9 | 9 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 9 | 9 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 9 |

 

[Sangoku]

On demand of Karajan, I am asking you guys to keep everything that isn't a serious matchup chart out of this thread. This is not a matchup discussion thread (you are always free to create another thread for that if you feel the need to discuss specific matchups), so any more posts like these will be considered offtopic (and thus infracted accordingly). Also don't submit troll charts, as this will also be dealt with. Thank you.

 

[O.o-RITH-o.O]

--| || | | || || | | |
| 4 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 7 | 5 | 2 |
| X | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 3 |
| X | X | 4 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 3 | 6 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 3 |
| X | X | X | 4 | 3 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 3 |
| X | X | X | X | 4 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 7 | 7 | 2 |
| X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 2 | 4 | 6 | 2 | 3 | 3 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 5 | 7 | 5 | 7 | 6 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 5 | 3 | 5 | 5 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 2 | 4 | 3 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 5 | 3 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 3 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 |

 

[Radical Larry]

Though mine may not be counted, I may as well try to come up with a reasonable matchup chart of my own. Note that repeated numbers will end after the second number and the higher the mean, the higher the rank.
| | || | | || || | | |
| 4 | 5 | 4 | 7 | 3 | 7 | 4 | 4 | 6 | 7 | 7 | 3 |
| X | 4 | 3 | 5 | 2 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 5 | 7 | 7 | 2 |
| X | X | 4 | 7 | 3 | 6 | 3 | 3 | 7 | 6 | 7 | 5 |
| X | X | X | 4 | 1 | 4 | 2 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 1 |
| X | X | X | X | 4 | 7 | 4 | 5 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 5 |
| X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 1 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 6 | 4 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 5 | 7 | 7 | 3 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 5 | 5 | 1 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 5 | 1 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 | 1 |
| X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | X | 4 |

(Takes a long time calculating this stuff...)

Rankings (in order):
5.9166
5.6666
5.0000
4.5833
4.3333
3.1666
2.9166
2.5833
2.5000
2.0000
1.9166
1.6666

My end results. This is my list and even though this may not be counted, it's moreover a thing I usually do. I'm a player after all, aren't I?

 

[BeatMyLuigi]

this is bull****

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

this is bull****

Come to Nashua.

I can get you a ride with another player.

You wont beat me lol

 

[BeatMyLuigi]

Come to Nashua.

I can get you a ride with another player.

You wont beat me lol

6.0000

 

[DrizzyDrew]

kirby is the best...end of thread