Tier list. And why I want them.

[b8master]

Before you people reading this decide to go into the comment section and comment "ITS TOO EARLY FOR TIER LIST SCRUB GT GUD" please hear me out. I understand that it is too early for an accurate tier list to be made. The game hasn't even been released yet in the U.S however, I think it would be healthy for the game and the community to make a tier list for the current meta. People are under some sort of impression that when someone puts up a tier list, that it is set in stone by some god of lightning, and that it cannot be changed. Why not make a tier list, is it because it's too early? If so, why don't we just update the tier list when changes are needed? If DHD is god tier now and goes to C tier later, why can't we just make that change when the time comes? Just because a character is lower in tier than another does not mean that the character at hand is worse. The player is what makes the character, however, it would be nice to know where certain characters movesets stand next to others. That is why I want a tier list. That is why I can't understand why people say it's too early.

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

"ITS TOO EARLY FOR TIER LIST SCRUB GT GUD"

It really is too early. I can point to several people who think a certain character is good and I can point to another group of people who think the same character is terrible. Until we have the results of tournaments for each character and a much larger set of data, any tier list made now would be useless and a waste of time.

If you want some so badly just go look at streams and make one yourself. Opinions are subjective, what is lacking is data.

 

[Evello]

You are correct that tiers can be changed, it's just that currently the meta is changing so fast that there wouldn't even be time to debate the list. By the time you finish deciding that DHD is the best on the list, someone will have already discovered an amazing way to play another character. There's literally not even time to make a list. Not to mention we have no large tournaments to go off of yet, so any kind of ranking is guesswork at best. We're nowhere close to being able to establish character match-ups yet, as a result. Also, lesser played characters would be incredibly hard to place just because not many people are playing them. We don't know how good they are yet.

For now, we can definitely assemble speculative lists of potential top tier fighters, but we have nowhere near enough data to make an official tier list.

 

[Blade Knight]

It is too early to be making tiers, this much is certain. Data collection, however, can never begin too soon. Tier Lists are just objective representations of mathematical data, showing off what has and hasn't worked up until that point in time. Nothing is preventing them from changing except we, the players, and no matter what anybody may want to think we're the ones who make them in the first place too.

Characters shouldn't be arbitrarily put into tiers just like how people shouldn't arbitrarily ignore them. Smash 4 is a very well balanced game and every character appears to be good so far, but given enough time the best will rise to the top even if they are only the best by a small margin. Hopefully people won't get discouraged though, because almost any character is viable if you practice and play hard enough.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Can I just leave this here...? ok.

 

[A Lucky Person]

It's definitely way too early for any sort of tier list. Just calm your anxiety about the game.

Can I just leave this here...? ok.

What even is this? I MUST KNOW.

 

[TheMasonOrder]

Can I just leave this here...? ok.

No...
What are you, 12? gb2 gamefaqs

 

[Fathom778]

I've never used tiers.
My Brawl main was in the low tiers, yet I kicked ass with him.

 

[Tino]

Mind telling me why this "tier list" even exist in the first place?

 

[Hitzel]

While there's nothing wrong with a tier list, I don't understand why you're demanding one since a tier list this early will be useless.

The only useful information you can get out of people right now is their opinions on what characters seem potentially good and which characters seem potentially bad, which anyone can do by watching some streams or looking into what people with the JPN version are saying. Even then, it's probably going to be bad information.

 

[Ehn Jolly]

Yeah, a Tier List only matters because of the thought that goes into it. Without being thought out, it's literally just random guesses, and that's not helping anyone.

 

[Card]

That is why I can't understand why people say it's too early.

The reason it's too early is because Tier Lists are mostly made based off of collected data which is drawn from Tournament Results across the globe. Usually this data is compiled by the games community (match-up by match-up), and organized into tiers, and then finally presented to the community while being continuously updated overtime as people become more and more familiar with the game.

Since the game just came out, there isn't enough Data to make conclusive tier standings for each individual character.

For example, recently a Sheik just won a tournament at TourneyLocator, while a Greninja won another tournament in Japan. Does this mean Sheik and Greninja are guaranteed to be A+ Tier characters? Not really, because there just isn't enough data on the two of them to be conclusive. If say, 6+ months from now, both of them are consistently placing well in tournaments, when played by a variety of different players around the globe, only then can we rank them as A+ Tier characters.

Hopefully this helps you understand why it is in fact "too early" to create a legitimate Tier List.

I want a Tier List as much as you do, but we'll just have to be patient for it!

 

[Super_Queijo]

A good tier list is based on math, not oppinion, we don't have enough data to understand "hey, these characters are winning most tourneys, let's go to the lab and try to make skills to get better next time"

 

[LinkNIvy]

It really is too early. I can point to several people who think a certain character is good and I can point to another group of people who think the same character is terrible. Until we have the results of tournaments for each character and a much larger set of data, any tier list made now would be useless and a waste of time.

If you want some so badly just go look at streams and make one yourself. Opinions are subjective, what is lacking is data.

I still want a sort of census on where people think the balance is, even on a pub level. At least get discussion going instead of shutting it down because it's not... "Worth it" or something stupid along those lines (joke threads being shut down when they're genuinely funny). This is a place to have fun and as long as someone's not being a douche then it's not an issue. It's data on a server that's not hurting for memory.

 

[S2]

Early tier lists are very much based on speculation of character potential. While this definitely works on characters that are clearly very good, it doesn't accurately place most members of the cast. Metaknight in Brawl is a prime example, it was obvious from day 1 he was very powerful. Same with Virgil in UMvC3. But then you have characters like Morrigan in MvC3, who was low tier trash until fly canceling became a thing and all the sudden she was spamming fireballs and the bane of a lot of players.

A good tier list takes years to emerge. And even then, things can fluctuate if new character specific techniques or strategies get found. The issue with making a tier list now is that you'll end up with a good ballpark estimate for a few of the obviously strong characters and then a giant bracket of characters getting placed in mid-tier because there is no sufficient matchup knowledge or experience with them.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

Before you people reading this decide to go into the comment section and comment "ITS TOO EARLY FOR TIER LIST SCRUB GT GUD" please hear me out. I understand that it is too early for an accurate tier list to be made. The game hasn't even been released yet in the U.S however, I think it would be healthy for the game and the community to make a tier list for the current meta. People are under some sort of impression that when someone puts up a tier list, that it is set in stone by some god of lightning, and that it cannot be changed. Why not make a tier list, is it because it's too early? If so, why don't we just update the tier list when changes are needed? If DHD is god tier now and goes to C tier later, why can't we just make that change when the time comes? Just because a character is lower in tier than another does not mean that the character at hand is worse. The player is what makes the character, however, it would be nice to know where certain characters movesets stand next to others. That is why I want a tier list. That is why I can't understand why people say it's too early.

I don't think you understand how tier lists work. They aren't set in stone; they change all the time. You don't need loads of time to put one together, either. Preliminary tier lists will start showing up in the next few weeks, and most people will start to come to a consensus on which characters seem to be good, and which seem to be bad. In a few months, those opinions will have changed.

By the end of October, we'll have at least a three-tier outline, showing which characters seem to be good, and which seem to be worse. Already, it looks like Bowser, Zero-Suit Samus, Shulk and Toon Link are going to be high-tier, so that's a start. Just be a little patient, you can't make decisions based on no information!

 

[PK Gaming]

It's too early for a tier list, be patient

 

[LinkNIvy]

I don't think you understand how tier lists work. They aren't set in stone; they change all the time. You don't need loads of time to put one together, either. Preliminary tier lists will start showing up in the next few weeks, and most people will start to come to a consensus on which characters seem to be good, and which seem to be bad. In a few months, those opinions will have changed.

By the end of October, we'll have at least a three-tier outline, showing which characters seem to be good, and which seem to be worse. Already, it looks like Bowser, Zero-Suit Samus, Shulk and Toon Link are going to be high-tier, so that's a start. Just be a little patient, you can't make decisions based on no information!

Why TL? I haven't seen anyone play him.

 

[Gabukin]

Actually I want a tier list as well. It's to early to make a GOOD tier list but I see no problem with speculating a tier list for now.

 

[tttt]

There is definitely not enough people with the game to agree to an even okay tier list. It would just make no sense to make it before release in America. Unless the Japanese make a tier list...

 

[Gabukin]

I made an personal tier list that may seem preposterous and some of you definitely won't agree with my opinions.

NOTE: This is just Early speculation. My tier list is based off of personal opinions of what I’ve seen from youtube videos and streams. I have not played the full game (I’ve only played the demo) so keep that in mind. Again these are my EARLY OPINIONS on the tier list and should be taken with a grain of salt. also the characters are not in order.

~High Tier~
Bowser, Sheik, Duck Hunt Dog, Zero Suit Samus, Little Mac, Greninja, King Dedede, Jigglypuff, Pac-Man, Lucario, Captain Falcon, Meta Knight,

~Mid Tier~
Villager, Mario, Toon link, Dr. Mario, Luigi, Wii Fit Trainer, Lucina, Bowser Jr, Rosalina, Link, Diddy Kong, Ness, Robin, Palutena, Marth, Charizard, Fox, R.O.B., Sonic, Robin, Wario, Peach

~Low Tier~
Ganondorf, Zelda, Donkey Kong, Shulk, Pit, Ike, Falco, Olimar, Mr game & Watch, Mega Man, Pikachu, Samus, Kirby, Yoshi, Dark Pit

 

[Aunt Jemima]

There's a reason that I don't want tier lists...

Quite a hefty amount of people in the Smash Community seem to think that anybody that isn't, at the very least, mid-tier on the tier list is garbage. This causes people who think like that to restrict who they're going to play - if Mega Man is bottom tier, people aren't going to have an interest in him. If a tier list is released, people won't explore new characters, and try to develop their meta. I, personally, want everybody to make their favorite character THEIR CHARACTER. If people think that Ganondorf isn't good, you show them he's good!

At least for me, I'll be doing just that. Many people are saying that Kirby isn't that great in this game, yet I'll still be helping develop his meta game, and try to make him better. I want to go into "For Glory" and have people think "I'll destroy this stupid Kirby main with my Sheik" and then utterly destroy them. I mean, look where Jigglypuff was in the first Melee tier list!

 

[mega5657]

Tier lists actually influence the outcomes of tier lists themselves. IE if Shiek is rated top tier, more people will play Shiek and Shiek has a higher chance of winning more tournaments and a constantly improving meta game and thus staying in top tier. If Olimar is rated low tier, less people will play him, the lower popularity means that his meta game will likely take longer to develop, and thus he will stay lower tier for a while.

 

[Renji64]

Tier list or no tier list i'll still play who i like.

 

[shogungari]

It's definitely way too early for any sort of tier list. Just calm your anxiety about the game.

What even is this? I MUST KNOW.

"tires don exits"

 

[Raijinken]

If you need a tier list, then do what the community does and poll your friends who are as good at the game as you are, and rank the characters based on that. It will be almost as accurate as anything pro players can come up with, and won't risk accidentally tricking a large portion of the community like some endorsed early impressions could.

Heck, I didn't realize I was going by a six-year-old Brawl tier list until earlier this year. I was still calling Snake high tier.

 

[Kain6th]

this thread will be locked soon. wayy too early to have a tier list dude

 

[Gabukin]

this thread will be locked soon. wayy too early to have a tier list dude

Its NOT to early to speculate and form early opinions.

 

[Kain6th]

Its NOT to early to speculate and form early opinions.

Sure form your opinions... but its not going to matter until more tournaments are played.

 

[Gabukin]

Sure form your opinions... but its not going to matter until more tournaments are played.

That is completely true, but its still nice and fun to discuss personal opinions regarding tiers and such. I'm sure you've seen enough gameplay and though "wow that character looks really good."

 

[Ehn Jolly]

Early tier lists are very much based on speculation of character potential. While this definitely works on characters that are clearly very good, it doesn't accurately place most members of the cast. Metaknight in Brawl is a prime example, it was obvious from day 1 he was very powerful. Same with Virgil in UMvC3. But then you have characters like Morrigan in MvC3, who was low tier trash until fly canceling became a thing and all the sudden she was spamming fireballs and the bane of a lot of players.

From what I rmemeber, Metaknight didn't get picked up on utnil later in the Brawl. Tiers take a LONG time to matter and form.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

From what I rmemeber, Metaknight didn't get picked up on utnil later in the Brawl. Tiers take a LONG time to matter and form.

uh mk was number 1 on the tier list when v1 came out

 

[Ehn Jolly]

Hm, I heard otherwise, but I wasn't big on the scene when it first started, so maybe I just heard wrong.

 

[Moldy Clay]

The reason it is too early or not worth it now is because it doesn't actually mean anything. A handful of people who imported and watching people play on Youtube doesn't even sort of form a valid collection of data that could be used to create a tier list.

The reason they take a while is because there has to be research involved in the movesets, weaknesses & strengths. How they work on certain stages, certain match-ups, etc. And this stuff is only truly discovered from examining tournaments. The winners and how they win.

Forming a tier list now misses the entire point of the tier list. It would literally mean absolutely nothing beyond "I think these guys are good, these are okay and these are not that great". And what does one NEED a tier list for now anyway? You can't just play for yourself and see who works and feels right? Or you have to play the characters that people think are good, instead of just having fun and learning for yourself, or proving people wrong?

It's like reviewing a film or game based on the trailer.
Or rating food that you didn't eat, but licked or took a single bite.
A tier list without time actually being put into the game is just nonsense. It would be a garbage tier list.

So enjoy asking people to make you a garbage list that won't even sort of resemble what the true tier list is going to be like because it's based on single people's personal tastes or biases & videos that don't provide anything.

 

[ZombieBran]

"who cares about tier lists play who you like"
Why do people feel the need to say that. If someone wants to play a character because they're number 1 on the tier list, who are you to judge? Don't you say "play who you like!"? Well, they like winning, deal with it.

I think people are salty because their favorite characters are low in tier lists, so they say "I win with my Link!" But really, the fact is that they're probably not fighting people who can dissect a Link. I say this as a Zelda main.

Hm, I heard otherwise, but I wasn't big on the scene when it first started, so maybe I just heard wrong.

You did hear wrong.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

Why TL? I haven't seen anyone play him.

ZeRo has been going over characters on Twitch, showing combos and such. He rated TL high for having a lot of combos and good KO potential. His air-hookshot combos into a lot of stuff, and has great spacing properties.

 

[Yodude57]

"who cares about tier lists play who you like"
Why do people feel the need to say that. If someone wants to play a character because they're number 1 on the tier list, who are you to judge? Don't you say "play who you like!"? Well, they like winning, deal with it.

I think people are salty because their favorite characters are low in tier lists, so they say "I win with my Link!" But really, the fact is that they're probably not fighting people who can dissect a Link. I say this as a Zelda main.


You did hear wrong.

You mad bro?

ZeRo has been going over characters on Twitch, showing combos and such. He rated TL high for having a lot of combos and good KO potential. His air-hookshot combos into a lot of stuff, and has great spacing properties.

That's great to hear because toon link was my main in brawl!

 

[ZombieBran]

You mad bro?

I bow to your obvious intellect.

 

[Yodude57]

I bow to your obvious intellect.

Your sarcasm is greatly appreciated XD

 

[QuickRat]

In my opinion from the demo, I found matchups very favourable for and .