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Thoughts on # of stocks?

# of stocks?


  • Total voters
    131
  • Poll closed .

Thinkaman

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I'm just going to chime in with 2 reminders:


The only real valid rational for either stock count is "I prefer this stock count." It's entirely subjective, and all attempts to pretend one is objectively superior is foolish. You can always attempt to explain your preference, but never attempt to present it as an absolute truth.

In particular, the follow arguments:
  • It's how we've always done it.
    • Who cares?
  • It's how For Glory does it.
    • Who cares?
  • It's the game's default setting.
    • Who cares?
  • It's more/less variance.
    • Variance isn't objectively good or bad, even if most people dislike it.
  • It's more/less comebacks.
    • Comebacks aren't objectively good or bad, even if most people like them.
  • It's more/less forgiving of SDs.
    • The degree of penalty someone thinks SDs should impact a match with is subjective.
  • It's too long/boring.
    • If you think 3 whole stocks of Smash Bros is boring, then I hope you never go to a tournament!
    • I hear those crazy kids play the same game all day!
  • It causes tourneys to run over time.
    • No, unfortunate TO decisions cause tourneys to run over time.
    • If Brawl could run 3 stock tourneys on time, this is obviously not an issue.
Again, some of these reasons can be used to explain one's preference, as many in this thread have done. But never confuse that for factual superiority.


Second, increasing stock time limit decreases average match length by removing incentive to stall.

3-stock 8 minutes will essentially always be a shorter tourney than 3-stock 6/7 minutes. (Though the difference will be very slight.)
 
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LordFluffy

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3 Stock seems acceptable at this point. games end faster than brawl competitive did and having 3 stocks allows for more decisive wins and or great comebacks. if vectoring still existed i'd say 2, but without it i think 3 stock is entirely acceptable.

Some matches will still take more than 5 minutes, but i find most end before 5 minutes so having 8 minute timer along with it as Thinkaman said decreases the incentive to stall and increases the likelyhood of quicker matches.
 

SuaveChaser

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I'm in the two stock camp. The pacing feels right you can do best of 5 instead. 3 feels drawn out and kinda slow to me.
 

Thinkaman

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2-stock Bo5 is non-trivially longer than 3-stock Bo3. A good TO should still be able to do it, but still.
 

ParanoidDrone

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2-stock Bo5 is non-trivially longer than 3-stock Bo3. A good TO should still be able to do it, but still.
How so? 2*5 = 25, 3 * 8 = 24, seems close enough to me in the worst case where everything goes to time. (Assuming 2s5m and 3s8m.) Admittedly, I lack data on average cases so if you have insight on it that would be swell. I also didn't take into account between-round things like character and stage selection but I honestly don't know how much those actually take on average either so...yeah, I'm dealing with a lot of unknowns here.
 
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Thinkaman

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How so? 2*5 = 25, 3 * 8 = 24, seems close enough to me in the worst case where everything goes to time. Admittedly, I lack data on average cases so if you have insight on it that would be swell. I also didn't take into account between-round things like character and stage selection but I honestly don't know how much those actually take on average either so...yeah, I'm dealing with a lot of unknowns here.
It's longer game time, plus additional inter-game overhead.

It's not much, and should not be a factor preventing any TO from doing it.

I'm just throwing red flags at the suggestions of "3-stocks Bo3s are too long; let's do something longer."

Assuming a uniform average of 90 seconds per total stock (simplification; more stocks tends to have slightly lower) and 60 seconds between games (including the first game):

2 stock Bo3 2-0: 480 seconds average
2 stock Bo3 2-1: 720 seconds average

3 stock Bo3 2-0: 660 seconds average
3 stock Bo3 2-1: 990 seconds average

2 stock Bo5 3-0: 720 seconds average
2 stock Bo5 3-1: 960 seconds average
2 stock Bo5 3-2: 1200 seconds average

60 seconds sounds like a lot on paper, but is pretty accurate.
 
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smithspot

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I don't understand the part of the argument where you are given a extra stock because of a mistake or SD. Its a competition, if you screwed up its your fault. Why are we giving stock for mistakes on the players end?
 

Thinkaman

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I don't understand the part of the argument where you are given a extra stock because of a mistake or SD. Its a competition, if you screwed up its your fault. Why are we giving stock for mistakes on the players end?
No one is arguing that SDs shouldn't count.

The notion is, how much should they count? Should a single SD determine the outcome of the entire game? Or should the player have a chance to redeem themselves by playing significantly better than the opponent for the rest of the match?


We all agree that an SD should not be an auto-lose.

But how hard should they have to win otherwise, to redeem themselves?

Should they have to win 2 vs 3 (very hard) or 1 vs 2 (extremely hard)? That's the question.


Reminder: And once again, it's all subjective. There's no right answer.
 
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smithspot

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Ok here are the calculations I have according to our tournaments and via extra proof from all the videos that we record, edit, and upload to Youtube.

2 stock, 6min, best 2/3 settings
Average 2/3 Match = 6 mins
*Good matchups average = 8-9mins
18 player tournament = 37 total matches
So 37 matches at 6mins each = 222mins = 3 hours 42mins

Also know these calculation are playtime only. Before I upload the videos I cut out the time in between matches that people are counter picking characters and stages. Normal cut time per set is 1-3mins depending on the players.

Now some may say 4 hours is short or a good amount of time, but I challenge the players to go to a store, bar, event space and find out how much it will cost to hold a facility for 4 hours. Then ask how much it is for 6 hours or more. Its not cheap and not easy to do so for more than 3-4 hours and gets real complicated when you pushing 6 hours. The average venue fee of $5 does not cover the cost of a space for extended periods of time.
 

Thinkaman

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That's not how tourney lengths work.

There are significant overhead costs, and matches are played in parallel as much as possible.
 

metoo

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After reading most comments, there is clearly a missunderstanding. Many are looking at the matches as too long or short, but are not considering the set as a whole. We either need 2 stock, best of 5, or 3 Stock, best of 3. This is the real argument.

IMO, with a roster as vast and, for the moment, as seemingly balanced, we want to encourage matchup experamentation. The best way to do this is cause more character countering through more games. It also is the best way to counter act SDs.

The biggest reason I agree with is, is FG. I can see many people working on FG to get good before they spend money to enter an event. It would sure be nice for new players to feel welcome when they come.
 

smithspot

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That's not how tourney lengths work.

There are significant overhead costs, and matches are played in parallel as much as possible.
I'm not understanding your comment. Overhead cost?
Now for matches being played parallel, that is a given. At our tournament we have had 4-5 setups each time. We have hosted 5 tournament so far since the release of Smash 4 Wii U. We had 16 entries twice, 18 entries, 25, entries, and 30 entries. Each tournament ran about 3 - 3 1/2 hours each.
 

Gidy

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Does anyone know what the ruleset is for singles Smash 4 at Apex? I really hate seeing S@X at 2 stocks. Boss reks people too fast with Luigi.
 

smithspot

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Apex Official rules!
**Updated 12/23/14**

VI. Super Smash Bros. for Wii U
A. Game Settings
● Stock and time are set to 2 stock and 6 minutes for Singles
● Stock and time are set to 3 stock and 8 minutes for Doubles
● Custom Fighters are set to off
● Mii Fighters are legal. Each setup will have a 1111 Mii
Brawler/Swordsman/Gunner available for use (Using Default A Mii).
No other specials for Mii Fighters will be allowed. Players are not
allowed to transfer existing Miis to a setup.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/74563582/Apex/Apex2015_Rulebook.pdf
 
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warionumbah2

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I would say 3 but some match ups in this game is campy as hell, i think at some point people were doing 3 stocks in tournaments but reduced it to 2 because of the camping. Its only now people are getting better so matches go by faster.

Its a shame that Apex is going the 2 stock route but oh well. Just gotta move on.
 
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