Thoughts on non-videogame character deconfirmation.

[HYRULESHERO42]

Let me make this so incredibly simple to you that there is no confusion.

Describe what Jessie and James do.

They work for Team Rocket. And they do grunt works.

Team Rocket. Grunt work.

I’m done with this pointless thread and it’s inane arguments.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yep, they totally take over and create branches in many regions. Like executives do. Not like grunts do. Grunts have no real notable points to them. They do the same thing. Meanwhile, the Trio fully works with the boss Giovanni himself(something Grunts don't do), reports under him(something Grunts don't actually do, as they have different higher ups), and actually lead out missions that are only given to executives. You don't really know what they are, do you? Cause they're entirely different from Grunts and were always meant to be. They only had the Grunt role for a short period during the Johto saga, and then were appointed as the leaders of the branch in Hoenn(as they were given the strict role of creating that branch. So an executive role). Calling them grunts is just false information.

So with the actual anime and events, they aren't based upon grunts but were always their own unique thing. Grunts don't get backstories or any actual proper personality. Even before the original series ended, they had huge differences among the mooks(which again, are separate characters in the anime).

 

[Lenidem]

I'd suggest doing research before saying blatantly incorrect information.

And I would suggest less arrogance. Nobody thought of Rocket Grunts when Jessie and James appeared in the show for the first time? Really? I didn't say that they are grunts, I wrote that they are inspired, based upon it. If you really don't see any connexion, I give up.

I have a hard time seeing a single difference between one anime character and a comic character, really.

Seriously? The Pokémon anime is based on the Pokémon games. Dragon Ball Z, for example, is an anime based on a manga. If you don't see the difference, well, I don't know what to say.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

And I would suggest less arrogance. Nobody thought of Rocket Grunts when Jessie and James appeared in the show for the first time? Really? I didn't say that they are grunts, I wrote that they are inspired, based upon it. If you really don't see any connexion, I give up.

I wasn't reply to you about a lack of research. Inspired doesn't make hard based upon it. They have little do with them. You actually did a lot more research here. Because you knew they weren't just grunts, but actually important members instead. No doubt they're inspired slightly by them, but only at best their Pokemon they hold. That's all they have in common at best.

Seriously? The Pokémon anime is based on the Pokémon games. Dragon Ball Z, for example, is an anime based on a manga. If you don't see the difference, well, I don't know what to say.

There is no difference to me. If the character is already an OC created for the anime, they are not a game character. Jessie and James are anime characters. That's the point. They got jack-all to do with the games. They have different roles from grunts too. They have extremely loose connections with them, other than the fact they replace the executive role, not the grunts role. The grunts actually, again, have different roles in the anime. Jessie and James are not really based upon the grunts, but the major guys you fight before dealing with Giovanni. They're based upon the elite members. They were then reduced to villain of the week and got so bad they lost their own membership and had to become grunts for a short while.

As I said above, the only thing they have to do with a single grunt is using an Ekans and Koffing. Beyond that? They have different roles. They actually removed the grunts of Team Rocket in the anime later on entirely. They aren't even a role anymore. Instead they're more important field agents with names and backstories, a fairly different role, since they aren't just mooks. They're specific characters with their own purpose. Being slightly similar(by proxy of what Pokemon they used... till they released Arbok and Weezing) doesn't mean they actually had the same real roles.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

For the record, trying to shut down discussion will not be allowed. As non-moderation, do not forget you don't have the authority to shut down threads, nor do we allow mini-modding. In addition, a thread will only be shut down if there's nothing to discuss(when there clearly is) or if the actual opening poster requests it or if the thread becomes nothing but flaming/trolling.

Keep this in mind before you post. Actually attempt to contribute to the discussion.

 

[Arcadenik]

And yet he has no problems mentioning non-game characters at all. It only applies as a Fighter specifically, which is the only context he ever noted non-game characters in. That's the only time they're pretty much disconfirmed.

Let's not pretend Ash is a game character first and foremost. Yet he's part of a trophy description for Pokemon Trainer. The Captain N show is directly referenced(just not by name) in two of Palutena's Guidances(for Simon and MegaMan). He literally uses the anime design for Misty as a trophy in Melee, not her game design. So no, this isn't really a correct rule at all. We know for a fact he has no issue referencing non-game materials. The issue is licensing at best, and always was that. There is no stigma against it and never was. He just knows how difficult it is, hence laughing at the idea of some being remotely possible.

I've found a Pokémon anime reference in Palutena's Guidance.

Meowth! That's right! Smash finally references Team Rocket from the anime with the word "twerp".

Team Rocket always called Ash and his friends "twerps". Team Rocket always called the player character "twerp" in Pokémon Let's Go.

With that said, Team Rocket for Smash!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I've found a Pokémon anime reference in Palutena's Guidance.

Meowth! That's right! Smash finally references Team Rocket from the anime with the word "twerp".

Team Rocket always called Ash and his friends "twerps". Team Rocket always called the player character "twerp" in Pokémon Let's Go.

View attachment 189578

View attachment 189579

With that said, Team Rocket for Smash!

My guess is Team Rocket has never appeared because they're anime specific characters. Ash and this stuff is a reference only due to that. It still fits how Sakurai tends to not like non-video game characters as playable, but these anime(and not game references in any way) references only show he doesn't care that much as people think he does. If he seriously thought non-game stuff shouldn't appear in Smash, he wouldn't make any exceptions.

I'd like them in with Meowth as the proper player character, that said. But yeah, I don't think it has a chance. Maybe Meowth could have Giovanni instead, but still be all anime references of his moveset? Hell, he could even summon another Meowth for Pay Day since he can't use it himself. Or a Persian instead.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Smash is about gaming.

There's no place for non-video game characters. Simple as that.

Otherwise people will also begin requesting ridiculous choices like SpongeBob and Shrek which they already do.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Smash is about gaming.

There's no place for non-video game characters. Simple as that.

They're already referenced in the game anyway. The issue doesn't exist. The game is actually focused on gaming specifically. They can have as much non-game content as they want as long as licensing doesn't make it hard to do so. And for the record, he can't reference Captain N stuff in Simon's Guidance without Konami agreeing to use their IP like that. He also can't even use the name Ash/Satoshi without permission too. That means it wasn't just a simple reference, but he had to go through hoops to okay that kind of thing. He went out of his way for non-game content. It's pretty hard evidence he doesn't even care that much about this. He has never cared about non-game characters outside of "making them playable", anyway(strictly for licensing reasons, as there's absolutely zero evidence that he cares otherwise). Anything else is unfounded to begin with and trying to make up fanrules.

Otherwise people will also begin requesting ridiculous choices like SpongeBob and Shrek which they already do.

Big deal. They can request anyone they want. They're fans. They have a right to want a character they find interesting. The actual issue is Sakurai has no time for requests at all anymore. The ballot is over. He gave us a tweet to note to stop giving him requests. The type of request isn't relevant. He just wants it done.

FYI, they aren't ridiculous in any way. Do you know why? It's simple, because they're legitimate requests from fans. Trying to treat it like a problem won't make it a problem. The reality is, dismissing what people want is an actual problem because it splits the fanbase instead. What you're saying is more creating a toxic community than any suggestion for a character you don't like ever could. Just respect what they like and move on. It has a more positive effect on the fanbase that way.

 

[Opossum]

They're already referenced in the game anyway. The issue doesn't exist. The game is actually focused on gaming specifically. They can have as much non-game content as they want as long as licensing doesn't make it hard to do so. And for the record, he can't reference Captain N stuff in Simon's Guidance without Konami agreeing to use their IP like that. He also can't even use the name Ash/Satoshi without permission too. That means it wasn't just a simple reference, but he had to go through hoops to okay that kind of thing. He went out of his way for non-game content. It's pretty hard evidence he doesn't even care that much about this. He has never cared about non-game characters outside of "making them playable", anyway(strictly for licensing reasons, as there's absolutely zero evidence that he cares otherwise). Anything else is unfounded to begin with and trying to make up fanrules.


Big deal. They can request anyone they want. They're fans. They have a right to want a character they find interesting. The actual issue is Sakurai has no time for requests at all anymore. The ballot is over. He gave us a tweet to note to stop giving him requests. The type of request isn't relevant. He just wants it done.

FYI, they aren't ridiculous in any way. Do you know why? It's simple, because they're legitimate requests from fans. Trying to treat it like a problem won't make it a problem. The reality is, dismissing what people want is an actual problem because it splits the fanbase instead. What you're saying is more creating a toxic community than any suggestion for a character you don't like ever could. Just respect what they like and move on. It has a more positive effect on the fanbase that way.

Simon's guidance isn't a Captain N reference. It's a reference to the fact that Kid Icarus and Castlevania came out around the same time.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I do not believe in only one possible interpretation because I'm too open for that. I'm well aware it also possibly references the game releases. But it doesn't change how he suddenly recognizes him. Or for that matter, why he's asked if he "knows him". He doesn't know him directly as the context implies if they simply had game releases. The context is making it sound like they met. Which is in one crossover only. That's why it's probably referring to both in the first place(hit the scene around the same time can also be said as many ways. It's much more subtle than it should be. Why not even just say "our games released at the same time" instead of an actual vague statement). Probably cause Sakurai loves to do that. He literally made one of Donkey Kong's costumes a straight reference to the Yeti from the cartoon, even outright calling him that(yes, he calls him Yeti DK. There is no other games where a Yeti DK appeared at that point. The literal sole reference was the cartoon with a different character. Made more obvious when they even look a lot alike as best as possible). He pays attention to the other media and has no reason to be worried if people care whether it's a good cartoon or not. What he won't do from what we've seen is beyond directly reference one, like having a straight out Captain N costume for Mii Gunner(which would make sense, since he's owned by Nintendo). The only non-subtle one is Trainer's trophy, which is the same in both regions. For both games too. Brawl and 4 had anime references. It's kind of weird too. You'd think he'd just call him Red or even reference Red once, but he doesn't. He just treats him as a 100% generic trainer with skins(so you have the Red and Leaf skins, but aren't really the character in any way). It was kind of obvious he wasn't meaning Red when neither trophy talked about what Red did during his canon moments during the game.

 

[UserKev]

In my opinion, Goku is that one exception and I know the sacrifice is incredible. Sasuke would be amazing in Smash and Dragon Ball isn't typically anime. Dragon Ball is more of a silly and colorful look, Goku's battle style already brilliant for Smash. Killua from Hunter X Hunter would be badass.

 

[Arcadenik]

In my opinion, Goku is that one exception and I know the sacrifice is incredible. Sasuke would be amazing in Smash and Dragon Ball isn't typically anime. Dragon Ball is more of a silly and colorful look, Goku's battle style already brilliant for Smash. Killua from Hunter X Hunter would be badass.

I am all for Dragon Ball Goku if it means forcing a precedent on Team Rocket Meowth detractors and Captain N detractors.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I am all for Dragon Ball Goku if it means forcing a precedent on Team Rocket Meowth detractors and Captain N detractors.

Though my guess is that if Sakurai starts letting non-game characters in, they'd still have to have a game appearance. Captain N doesn't have that(M.U.G.E.N. aside at most, anyway). So despite being more connected to games than Goku, he never was in one. But he's also 1st party, so I doubt that much matters anyway. I wouldn't expect him to be more than a Mii costume, though. Would be a neat gunner.

 

[Arcadenik]

I wouldn't expect him to be more than a Mii costume, though. Would be a neat gunner.

If Captain N gets a Mii costume, it still would be a win because it means Sakurai/Nintendo finally acknowledge Captain N.

A full-fledged character would be a lot better, naturally.

 

[PsychoJosh]

If they start adding non video game characters, that'd be hilarious, but I don't think it's ever going to happen.

If it does, I'm pulling for my boy Garfield.

Also TMNT would be cool, especially if we got fanservice from the Konami arcade games.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I probably mentioned this other times, though I'm not fully against non-game characters.
It depends on the context though.

If a character joins Smash as part of a game, with the moveset based on that specific game, then I think i'll accept it... if a character instead joins just as a pop icon then it wouldn't make sense.

For example, I would accept a Mikey Mouse based on Epic Mikey or Kingdom Hearts, but I would be against a Mikey Mouse based on the general Disney franchise. If he has to join, it must be because of a game, he must have gameplay as source material and reference gameplay in his moveset.

The same applies for any other character in a similar situation (including manga/anime characters).

I would accept chracters from non-games when the non-game is an interactive software/media. For example, even if Miku Hatsune didn't originate in a videogame, I think she would somehow fit in a way.... at a certain point, the barrier between games and non-games blurs so much that it's hard to distinguish between the two categories.
Is Nikki really a videogame character...? She did some cameo in some actual games, but she's primarily the mascotte of a software... it's a software designed like a game, but it's still a messaging software. Is Mario Paint really a game? etc.

So, I think that there are some specific situations when non-game characters can fit Smash in some way, though I'm not a supporter of the idea of getting them in Smash, I'm just open to accept it if they will ever decide to open the doors.

 

[Arcadenik]

For example, I would accept a Mikey Mouse based on Epic Mikey or Kingdom Hearts, but I would be against a Mikey Mouse based on the general Disney franchise. If he has to join, it must be because of a game, he must have gameplay as source material and reference gameplay in his moveset.

I want Mickey Mouse based on Mickey Mousecapade and The Magical Quest.

Oh, and maybe Scrooge McDuck based on Capcom’s DuckTales games!

 

[SportsGenius]

No playable character from The Closer or its spin-off Major Crimes will ever be added to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. The same goes with all other dramas such as The X-Files, the CSI franchise, or Cold Case. I can’t even imagine how their moveset would look like either. The developers would also not want them to have a firearm while even dealing with many copyright issues.