PopeOfChiliTown
Smash Ace
EDIT: New character strategies at the "general stuff" section of both characters in this color.
Videos of me getting my *** kicked (early PT play) here.
This is a regularly updated thead for the discussion of the competitive aspects of the two pokemon I main (still working on Squirtle).
Also, for ease of comprehension to those who haven't had the opportunity yet to play, I'll include comparisons of some of Ivy's attacks or general aspects to similar ones in Melee.
Key Attacks
Razor Leaf: As has been said in other threads, Ivysaur is well suited, by means of her ranged attacks and projectile, for camping. There is just no reason not to spam this move when possible, simply put. High priority, quick, relatively high rate of fire, and does decent damage and hit stun. Also, much like Doc's pills in Melee, if done in the air, you can DI backward or forward after shooting them, making SH Razor Leafs while DIing away from your opponent a very effective retreat maneuver. I can't provide insight on how to control its trajectory, however. Believe it or not, after five hours of play I still have no idea how to do this. *facepalm* indeed.
Melee counterpart: Link's boomerang (with more priority, and since you need not wait for it to return, more spammable)
Bair: What a nice surprise this attack was. Two hits, dealing about 2% each, with minimal knockback, as Ivysaur somersaults with vines outstretched. Way to aim high there, Pope! It may seem ridiculous to some, but this move is amazing. It's almost instant, has no lag, and can cover a huge semi-circle above, behind, and below Ivysaur, making it invaluable to her zoning game. It goes through Marth and Ike fairs if spaced correctly. SH bairs, if timed right, end before landing, thus no lag, and the facilitation of an insane retreat game bolstered by the spamming of this move. Obviously, this move is best used moving away from the opponent (who would use it to approach anyway?), most of whom will tend to overpursue in frustration, which is when you can easily bait them into a surprise grab or fsmash. Be prepared to heavily abuse this move, it will make everything a lot easier.
Melee counterpart: Retreating Marth fairs (much less damage and knockback, but more range....ok, this doesn't make it sound as impressive, but Marth was stupid in Melee).
Ftilt: Instant, good damage (about 13% if I recall correctly), great range, covers almost all of Ivysaur's body, and has little lag afterwards. This will be the main move in Ivy's ground repertoire in terms of opening things up, area clearing, and gaining separation from overly aggresive opponents. It can also aid a careful, well-thought out approach with good spacing.
Melee counterpart: None really.... think Mewtwo's nair, but on the ground. Ok, nevermind, don't think that.
Uair: Basically, this seemed to be her most versatile and dependable kill move aside from fsmash, so you'll want to learn to combo into it. It's also good for pressuring people in platforms above you, by SHing it, although keep in mind that it does push you downwards and you will have substantial land lag, however it does have great shieldhitstun and pushes shielders a fair distance, so you should be fairly safe in those situations.
Melee counterpart: Bowser's uair, although obviously much less laggy both before and after.
Fsmash: Quick, great range, powerful. It will be important to bait into it, as it seemed to me at least that landing smashes is harder in Brawl than in Melee. Bairs are great for setting it up, as I mentioned. Great for punishing rolls with good prediction. Spaced correctly, you do not run the risk of getting shield grabbed by most characters, since after hitting, your opponent will have been pushed back, and you will have returned to where you were pre-lunge.
Melee counterpart: Pikachu's fsmash (in function, not form).
Fair: Another good zoning tool. As expected, move back or stay put while using this move, as it is not safe to approach with. Has some starting lag, so getting the timing right is obviously important. Use it to control space, to retreat, or to finish combos. You can also use this off the edge for intercepting recovering opponents, although because it sends opponents in a very vertical trajectory upwards, bair or dair may be better for this. Damage is nothing to write home about, can KO at higher %s.
Melee counterpart: Ganon's fair (though worse, its zoning properties are the same).
Utilt: Not really special, but I thought I'd include it since I've seen very little of it, and it is nifty. A quick lunge upwards using the vines as a base, has good range and launching capabilities, so invariably it will come in handy for juggles.
Melee counterpart: Meh.
Bullet Seed: Ok, here's the deal. This move is actually quite impractical because of its trajectory. However, when a move is this quick, and has the potential to do more than 30% this easily, it cannot be ignored. Learn to set it up with throws, pressure people in platforms above you with utilts and SH uairs and surprise them with a timely stream of seeds. The first frames of the attack pops any opponent directly in front of Ivy right over her bulb, meaning the opponent will take a bunch of damage since DIing out of this isn't easy. Set-ups and baits into this move will have to be further explored, as it has the potential to be a very powerful tool.
EDIT: I forgot to add another way to use this. Simple though it may sound, using this on opponents you have knocked up too far to chase with an uair is an excellent way to tack on damage and keep the pressure. Ivysaur cannot exactly jump into the skies, so anytime your normal follow ups don't reach the opponent, an aerial Bullet Seed is there to continue harassing. Think like when Melee Fox or Falco hit someone too far to the left or right to chase, they would start playing laser tag. Only Ivy does it vertically. This is highly indicative of how Ivysaur's playstyle may develop; constant harassment and pressuring that gives the opponent a frustrating sensation that no matter where they are, they aren't safe.
EDIT:Usmash: Figured I might as well add it in. The reason I didn't to begin with was that, although I did manage to land a few during my play, I always felt they were lucky shots. There was no way that I could find to set it up consistently, so I stuck to uair and fair for KOs most often. That said, it will most definitely be worth it to find set ups for this, since its power is disgusting. I KO'd a DDD at about 85% with it, from the bottom of Mario Circuit, so that should tell you something. Oh, and that was uncharged. It does have a deceptive hitbox, hitting people nearby as well as over Ivysaur, though the range is not as stupid as Lucas' usmash has. If anyone who has played wants to share a tactic they used to land this, you are welcome to input that info.
Melee counterpart: Bowser's usmash, I guess.
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But those are just attacks, I will now get into some general tactics and some of Ivysaur's assets that worked well for me.
- Ivy's grabs are great. You have the range of Yoshi's grab, without the start and ending lag. The grab is almost instant, so don't be afraid to use it out of shield, and dashing to turning around and grabbing will surprise some people, although that doesn't mean you should throw those out randomly.
- Spam that bair. It's difficult to penetrate, and therefore difficult to punish. It can hit people on platforms above you as well. It frustrates opponents, and frustration leads to carelessness, and as we all know, carelessness loves bait.
- Razor Leaf spam is key, and those foolish enough to think jumping in is a great idea can eat a nice sweetspotted upB or well-timed fairs, utilts, or ftilts.
- Approaching with Ivysaur isn't a breeze. She just doesn't have the priority or quickness on most of her air attacks. However, fear not, because the brilliance of her moveset and assets make her adept at forcing opponents to come to her, which is really the better way to go about it anyway (just ask Melee Falco, Fox, and Peach).
- Blah blah you can get edgehogged blah blah possible developer oversight regarding tether recoveries blah big downer blah blah. DI upwards, save your second jump, Razor Leaf to clear the ledge. That's about it for now on this front
- Be patient. Both in learning the character and playing her. It won't be easy, but I predict the rewards will be generous, as I believe Ivysaur has the tools to be a dominant competitive (pocket)monster. Always play safe, never trick yourself into believing Ivysaur has the speed needed to aggressively approach anyone without there being a high risk of being punished.
EDIT: Ok, some new stuff:
- Bullet Seed is great. It comes out as fast as a jab, and even if the opponent does great smash DI, they will most likely take at least 10% (most times it will be more, since this is all dependent on reaction). Using this after falling with bair or nair catches would-be shield grabbers, although I don't recommend using any of those attacks on anyone's shield. If you hit with those attacks, however, then Bullet Seed is often guaranteed. It's obviously punishable if you miss, so learn to be selective with it before using it in actual combat.
- Ivysaur has so many great weapons for ledge pressure, it makes me spread my legs and think of Pallet Town. Bair spam at someone on the ledge is ridiculous, you can basically smell what they're going to do. If you:
a) Predict they will get up from the ledge: land from your bair and quickly ftilt from your safe location. Gets them right back off the stage or onto the ledge where you can use your wildly advantageous position to inflict even more chip damage.
b) Predict they will jump from the ledge: Land from lagless bair, then either full jump bair or fair, getting them off the stage. Also I have found, if you incorrectly predicted a simple get-up from the ledge, and threw out, say, ftilt, you can often catch them on the ledgehop with a grounded up B, which hits hard even when not sweetspotted.
c) Predict they will ledgehop: You'll actually want to keep spamming bair here, since it's safe, and will keep them off the stage. Ftilt is another good option with good spacing, and occasional well-timed fsmashes are lethal. Shield grab is a given if they attack.
d) Predict they will use the get-up attack: Land from bair, shield, then fsmash out of shield. Fast enough to hit most chartacters before they can shield themselves, especially when they (for some reason) use their above 100% get-up attack. Even if they manage to shield, there's formidable shieldhitstun, and they will be pushed back, likely grabbing the ledge once more. Powershield can be a problem though. I mention fsmash out of shield because it is most lethal and generally a sure thing, but of course ftilt, dtilt, bullet seed, and shield grabbing are other great options at this point. Some people advocate spaced jabs at people on the ledge, and I suppose that has its merits, but I'm not fond of it (yet). Though if anyone can provide testimony as to its effectiveness, I'll be glad to hear it.
- Nair gimps! It's not technically a spike, but some of the hits from Ivysaur's nair will send opponents straight down with (what appears to be) set knockback. You need to hit with Ivysaur's hips, which means you must be facing away from the opponent, as well as DIing away from them, so the other hits don't connect. It sounds impractical, but there are actually very practical ways to land it. You can chain to it from a bair off the stage (bair->double jump->nair gimp). I've also worked on simple ledgehop nairs, with GREAT SUCCESS. Once, I also managed to gimp someone who's ledge invincibility ran out as he was trying to gimp me.. It's well worth the effort to master, since combined with Charizard's fair, it makes PT one of the better low % kill characters thus far.
- SPAM THAT BAIR. Seriously, the move is amazing. Don't be afraid to use this off the stage either, as an edgeguard, it really shines. Double bairs off the stage work well against most characters (forces Pit into his up B for easy gimps), although it's not that great against R.O.B. or Snake's recoveries. It may be weak, but the damage quickly adds up, and some opponents' recoveries completely break down against bairs off the stage.
- Just a minor note, things out of shield are really good in this game. Ivysaur's best options (other than grabbing), given the situation, are Bullet Seed, ftilt, dtilt, jabs, and fsmash. Also, learn to powershield, it's good.
I know I'm missing some things, so I will update if I need to. Think of this as a more specialized overview of what one competitive Melee player thinks will be key elements in tourney play for this particular character. If you have questions, doubts, disagreements, then that is what this thread is for.
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Boy oh boy my droogs, how things have changed. Things have straight oscillated.
Charizard is amazing. Here you will find all my latest insight on Charizard as a competitive character.
Key Attacks
Fair: Everyone is talking about this attack, and there is a sexy reason for that. The conical flamethrower has good range (though not as much as you think, as I'll explain soon), good knockback for what it's for, comes out fast, and semi-spikes. You mainly want to land this move on airborne opponents, such as those who must recover. A true hit with this off the edge often means you get a gimp kill via edgehog. What I do not recommend, is the use of this in approaches done by short hopping. It has too much land lag, and does not really push shields back much. He has better options for this. Also, hitting with the ends of the flames does damage but no knockback, which is why it fails at zoning, since you actually want to get in close to get the desired effect.
No real counterpart
Ftilt: Just great. Great range, great sweetspot knockback, sufficiently quick. I was able to employ successful zoning by mixing this attack up with quick nairs and utilts. One thing to keep in mind is, as good an attack for controlling space and pressuring as this is, it can also often get you the kill at high percents, so it's up to you whether you want to sacrifice its knockback. Both routes have their advantages,.
Melee counterpart: Mewtwo's ftilt
Utilt: Great range above him, awesome speed, great combo potential. This move is much better than upsmash, and I cannot understand why people choose that over this. Great for platform pressuring, and like I said before, mixing it up with ftilts provides good space coverage.
Melee counterpart: Link's utilt is the best I can think of here. This has more range.
Dtilt: Great poke. I figure this will be like DK's dtilt in melee; it's fast, has good knockback, good range, but nobody uses it. Just a general poke basically, it's hella safe and relatively lagless.
Melee counterpart: DK's dtilt
Bair: My main KO move along with ftilt. It's strong and comes out quick. The second hit of this move (the tail hit) has incredible knockback. I also used it as bait by retreating with it. It's going to lag when you land though, as using it right as you jump is usually not the best option since goes right over people's heads and basically is like wearing a condom to watch Spongebob. It's kind of limp when the second hit doesn't hit, so learning how to land it is probably important. It's also probably important to learn to shield in this game.
Melee counterpart: ICs bair is similar in range and knockback.
Nair: Good out of shield to counter pressure and retreat. It covers all around Charizard, obviously, it's pretty much instant, although the knockback is nothing to wake the kids about. This you actually do want to use as soon as you short hop, since it lasts pretty much the entire SH and ends right before you land.
Melee counterpart: A much larger Pikachu nair, although with less knockback.
Uair: Instant, good range, decent knockback, good for aerial pressure and "juggling". Combined with Charizard's multiple jumps, you can also get kills off the top on low-ceiling stages by chasing opponents you've knocked upwards with utilt or a throw.
Melee counterpart: Don't know. I'm getting kind of tired of doing these "counterparts" anyway. Do they even help anyone?
Fsmash: Slow as hell, but deserves a mention since its strength can't be ignored and it's not impossible to hit with. Charizard rears back, so that helps him avoid hits somewhat. I'm not sure if this has super armor, though I don't think so. If anyone can confirm this, I would appreciate it. Super armor would be chocolate for this move.
Melee counterpart: Ganon's fsmash, or Bowser's.
Rock smash: It actually has uses. It has many hitboxes throughout its duration, and you can use it while airbourne obviously. I used it to retreat at times, since its ending lag is tolerable. It covers your front well, but really, use it sparingly.
No real counterpart goddammit
Up B: Good when used sparingly out of shield. Sparingly because although it is a good punish and can get kills at high percents, if you whiff, you are ****ed.
Melee counterpart: Marth's up B, maybe a tiny bit slower. And no sweetspot is necessary, as far as I can tell.
Jab: Good, fast. Kind of like Peach's b**** slaps. I use them often.
Dsmash: I found this impractical to use, I don't know. Knockback isn't really ground breaking (pun intended), but given its range and area of coverage it probably has more use than I've been giving it credit for. I'll update once I have the game and figure stuff out.
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Now on to generals:
- Charizard is a very heavy and large character with very good mobility. His ground speed is amazing, and is key in one aspect I have not yet mentioned:
- GRABS. Charizard is amazing at grabbing. His range seems to be incredible, and has useful throws both for getting people off the edge and setting them up for juggles. Dashing shield grabs and simple dash grabs with him are amazing, and I was surprised at how often and easily I could chase techs or rolls and grab. He basically has something similar to Marth's grab game in Melee. Yes, it's that good (minus the chain throws and juggling of course, let's not kid ourselves).
- His tilts are amazingly all around solid. They can be used for everything: zoning, pressure, KOs, pokes. Get comfortable with them, and find mixups with his also solid aerials.
- His aerials are all around also solid as a wine bottle. He has a great aerial game, bair retreats are great, fair gimps should be mastered, and nair is good to counter pressure (and to get pikmin off you).
- The approach that worked best for me was not by any means sh fairs. Dashing in and shielding is great for him, with the low lag of releasing your shield plus his great ground speed and grab range. SH nairs can actually be used to approach, given how there's no lag if you time it right, and no CC in brawl means this is harder to punish. His tilts are good for his approach as well, and the extent of their range is the space you generally want to keep between you and the opponent, since other than by using jabs and nairs, Charizard can get claustrophobic sometimes.
- Remember that while bair and ftilt are overall your best KO moves, they still are great for many other aspects of competitive play, and a nice balance between those uses can yield the best results.
New stuff:
- Anyone who ever played or analyzed a top level Marth knows that one of the things that made them so lethal was how hard he was to penetrate, given his quick and rangy options for zoning and controlling space. This usually meant retreating or stationary fairs and nairs in conjunction with dtilt, jabs, and utilts to create a wall between him and the opponent. Well, I'm not about to claim Charizard has all that just yet, but boy does he come close. Fairs can end before you land from a short hop, which means no lag, obviously. After landing, you have the options of jabs, which are near instant, or dtilt, which is also near instant, has amazing range, and amazing knockback as well. That's not even all. Dtilt has IASA frames! This means you can cancel the ending animation of the move with jabs, then jump, retreat with fair, then dtilt again when you land. It really is amazing, it creates quite a wall, and opponents will struggle to find ways to get through. You can easily predict rolls and counter them with quick turn around jabs or grabs, or even flamethrower (remember, it's not really safe, so be selective)! Jumpers can be easily caught with utilt or usmash. This is the kind of thing that bumps a character up a couple of tiers, and closes the gap between a slowish character and quicker ones. More than flawless execution (though it is essential), this is about learning to watch and read the opponent. When faced with an obstacle like this, most tend to do things outside of what safeness dictates they should be doing just to get through, and that is when you punish. I'll see if I can get a video of this soon.
- Fair gimps are too good. Remember that you can hit opponents slightly above you with it, but not so much below you. Every PT player should master this, since throwing characters off the stage can often lead to KO's at absurdly low percentages.
- Charizard's dash stop animation (just letting go of the stick while dashing) is very short, and has IASA frames, which you can take advantage of to perform quick utilts or other attacks. It's good to chase airborne opponents, or ones on platforms, by dashing, stopping, and interrupting the final frames with utilts. You can still use the shield to dash cancel if it's more comfortable, but if I'm not mistaken, this is a few frames faster.
This is all I have for Charizard and Ivysaur now. I will periodically update whenever I find anything new or come to realize what I said here was crap. Remember that this write-up is intended for people who already have seen PT in action, and have a general feel for how the attacks look and act, which is why I don't go into much discussion of aesthetics or % dealt. Squirtle may some day come too.
Videos of me getting my *** kicked (early PT play) here.
This is a regularly updated thead for the discussion of the competitive aspects of the two pokemon I main (still working on Squirtle).
Also, for ease of comprehension to those who haven't had the opportunity yet to play, I'll include comparisons of some of Ivy's attacks or general aspects to similar ones in Melee.
Key Attacks
Razor Leaf: As has been said in other threads, Ivysaur is well suited, by means of her ranged attacks and projectile, for camping. There is just no reason not to spam this move when possible, simply put. High priority, quick, relatively high rate of fire, and does decent damage and hit stun. Also, much like Doc's pills in Melee, if done in the air, you can DI backward or forward after shooting them, making SH Razor Leafs while DIing away from your opponent a very effective retreat maneuver. I can't provide insight on how to control its trajectory, however. Believe it or not, after five hours of play I still have no idea how to do this. *facepalm* indeed.
Melee counterpart: Link's boomerang (with more priority, and since you need not wait for it to return, more spammable)
Bair: What a nice surprise this attack was. Two hits, dealing about 2% each, with minimal knockback, as Ivysaur somersaults with vines outstretched. Way to aim high there, Pope! It may seem ridiculous to some, but this move is amazing. It's almost instant, has no lag, and can cover a huge semi-circle above, behind, and below Ivysaur, making it invaluable to her zoning game. It goes through Marth and Ike fairs if spaced correctly. SH bairs, if timed right, end before landing, thus no lag, and the facilitation of an insane retreat game bolstered by the spamming of this move. Obviously, this move is best used moving away from the opponent (who would use it to approach anyway?), most of whom will tend to overpursue in frustration, which is when you can easily bait them into a surprise grab or fsmash. Be prepared to heavily abuse this move, it will make everything a lot easier.
Melee counterpart: Retreating Marth fairs (much less damage and knockback, but more range....ok, this doesn't make it sound as impressive, but Marth was stupid in Melee).
Ftilt: Instant, good damage (about 13% if I recall correctly), great range, covers almost all of Ivysaur's body, and has little lag afterwards. This will be the main move in Ivy's ground repertoire in terms of opening things up, area clearing, and gaining separation from overly aggresive opponents. It can also aid a careful, well-thought out approach with good spacing.
Melee counterpart: None really.... think Mewtwo's nair, but on the ground. Ok, nevermind, don't think that.
Uair: Basically, this seemed to be her most versatile and dependable kill move aside from fsmash, so you'll want to learn to combo into it. It's also good for pressuring people in platforms above you, by SHing it, although keep in mind that it does push you downwards and you will have substantial land lag, however it does have great shieldhitstun and pushes shielders a fair distance, so you should be fairly safe in those situations.
Melee counterpart: Bowser's uair, although obviously much less laggy both before and after.
Fsmash: Quick, great range, powerful. It will be important to bait into it, as it seemed to me at least that landing smashes is harder in Brawl than in Melee. Bairs are great for setting it up, as I mentioned. Great for punishing rolls with good prediction. Spaced correctly, you do not run the risk of getting shield grabbed by most characters, since after hitting, your opponent will have been pushed back, and you will have returned to where you were pre-lunge.
Melee counterpart: Pikachu's fsmash (in function, not form).
Fair: Another good zoning tool. As expected, move back or stay put while using this move, as it is not safe to approach with. Has some starting lag, so getting the timing right is obviously important. Use it to control space, to retreat, or to finish combos. You can also use this off the edge for intercepting recovering opponents, although because it sends opponents in a very vertical trajectory upwards, bair or dair may be better for this. Damage is nothing to write home about, can KO at higher %s.
Melee counterpart: Ganon's fair (though worse, its zoning properties are the same).
Utilt: Not really special, but I thought I'd include it since I've seen very little of it, and it is nifty. A quick lunge upwards using the vines as a base, has good range and launching capabilities, so invariably it will come in handy for juggles.
Melee counterpart: Meh.
Bullet Seed: Ok, here's the deal. This move is actually quite impractical because of its trajectory. However, when a move is this quick, and has the potential to do more than 30% this easily, it cannot be ignored. Learn to set it up with throws, pressure people in platforms above you with utilts and SH uairs and surprise them with a timely stream of seeds. The first frames of the attack pops any opponent directly in front of Ivy right over her bulb, meaning the opponent will take a bunch of damage since DIing out of this isn't easy. Set-ups and baits into this move will have to be further explored, as it has the potential to be a very powerful tool.
EDIT: I forgot to add another way to use this. Simple though it may sound, using this on opponents you have knocked up too far to chase with an uair is an excellent way to tack on damage and keep the pressure. Ivysaur cannot exactly jump into the skies, so anytime your normal follow ups don't reach the opponent, an aerial Bullet Seed is there to continue harassing. Think like when Melee Fox or Falco hit someone too far to the left or right to chase, they would start playing laser tag. Only Ivy does it vertically. This is highly indicative of how Ivysaur's playstyle may develop; constant harassment and pressuring that gives the opponent a frustrating sensation that no matter where they are, they aren't safe.
EDIT:Usmash: Figured I might as well add it in. The reason I didn't to begin with was that, although I did manage to land a few during my play, I always felt they were lucky shots. There was no way that I could find to set it up consistently, so I stuck to uair and fair for KOs most often. That said, it will most definitely be worth it to find set ups for this, since its power is disgusting. I KO'd a DDD at about 85% with it, from the bottom of Mario Circuit, so that should tell you something. Oh, and that was uncharged. It does have a deceptive hitbox, hitting people nearby as well as over Ivysaur, though the range is not as stupid as Lucas' usmash has. If anyone who has played wants to share a tactic they used to land this, you are welcome to input that info.
Melee counterpart: Bowser's usmash, I guess.
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But those are just attacks, I will now get into some general tactics and some of Ivysaur's assets that worked well for me.
- Ivy's grabs are great. You have the range of Yoshi's grab, without the start and ending lag. The grab is almost instant, so don't be afraid to use it out of shield, and dashing to turning around and grabbing will surprise some people, although that doesn't mean you should throw those out randomly.
- Spam that bair. It's difficult to penetrate, and therefore difficult to punish. It can hit people on platforms above you as well. It frustrates opponents, and frustration leads to carelessness, and as we all know, carelessness loves bait.
- Razor Leaf spam is key, and those foolish enough to think jumping in is a great idea can eat a nice sweetspotted upB or well-timed fairs, utilts, or ftilts.
- Approaching with Ivysaur isn't a breeze. She just doesn't have the priority or quickness on most of her air attacks. However, fear not, because the brilliance of her moveset and assets make her adept at forcing opponents to come to her, which is really the better way to go about it anyway (just ask Melee Falco, Fox, and Peach).
- Blah blah you can get edgehogged blah blah possible developer oversight regarding tether recoveries blah big downer blah blah. DI upwards, save your second jump, Razor Leaf to clear the ledge. That's about it for now on this front
- Be patient. Both in learning the character and playing her. It won't be easy, but I predict the rewards will be generous, as I believe Ivysaur has the tools to be a dominant competitive (pocket)monster. Always play safe, never trick yourself into believing Ivysaur has the speed needed to aggressively approach anyone without there being a high risk of being punished.
EDIT: Ok, some new stuff:
- Bullet Seed is great. It comes out as fast as a jab, and even if the opponent does great smash DI, they will most likely take at least 10% (most times it will be more, since this is all dependent on reaction). Using this after falling with bair or nair catches would-be shield grabbers, although I don't recommend using any of those attacks on anyone's shield. If you hit with those attacks, however, then Bullet Seed is often guaranteed. It's obviously punishable if you miss, so learn to be selective with it before using it in actual combat.
- Ivysaur has so many great weapons for ledge pressure, it makes me spread my legs and think of Pallet Town. Bair spam at someone on the ledge is ridiculous, you can basically smell what they're going to do. If you:
a) Predict they will get up from the ledge: land from your bair and quickly ftilt from your safe location. Gets them right back off the stage or onto the ledge where you can use your wildly advantageous position to inflict even more chip damage.
b) Predict they will jump from the ledge: Land from lagless bair, then either full jump bair or fair, getting them off the stage. Also I have found, if you incorrectly predicted a simple get-up from the ledge, and threw out, say, ftilt, you can often catch them on the ledgehop with a grounded up B, which hits hard even when not sweetspotted.
c) Predict they will ledgehop: You'll actually want to keep spamming bair here, since it's safe, and will keep them off the stage. Ftilt is another good option with good spacing, and occasional well-timed fsmashes are lethal. Shield grab is a given if they attack.
d) Predict they will use the get-up attack: Land from bair, shield, then fsmash out of shield. Fast enough to hit most chartacters before they can shield themselves, especially when they (for some reason) use their above 100% get-up attack. Even if they manage to shield, there's formidable shieldhitstun, and they will be pushed back, likely grabbing the ledge once more. Powershield can be a problem though. I mention fsmash out of shield because it is most lethal and generally a sure thing, but of course ftilt, dtilt, bullet seed, and shield grabbing are other great options at this point. Some people advocate spaced jabs at people on the ledge, and I suppose that has its merits, but I'm not fond of it (yet). Though if anyone can provide testimony as to its effectiveness, I'll be glad to hear it.
- Nair gimps! It's not technically a spike, but some of the hits from Ivysaur's nair will send opponents straight down with (what appears to be) set knockback. You need to hit with Ivysaur's hips, which means you must be facing away from the opponent, as well as DIing away from them, so the other hits don't connect. It sounds impractical, but there are actually very practical ways to land it. You can chain to it from a bair off the stage (bair->double jump->nair gimp). I've also worked on simple ledgehop nairs, with GREAT SUCCESS. Once, I also managed to gimp someone who's ledge invincibility ran out as he was trying to gimp me.. It's well worth the effort to master, since combined with Charizard's fair, it makes PT one of the better low % kill characters thus far.
- SPAM THAT BAIR. Seriously, the move is amazing. Don't be afraid to use this off the stage either, as an edgeguard, it really shines. Double bairs off the stage work well against most characters (forces Pit into his up B for easy gimps), although it's not that great against R.O.B. or Snake's recoveries. It may be weak, but the damage quickly adds up, and some opponents' recoveries completely break down against bairs off the stage.
- Just a minor note, things out of shield are really good in this game. Ivysaur's best options (other than grabbing), given the situation, are Bullet Seed, ftilt, dtilt, jabs, and fsmash. Also, learn to powershield, it's good.
I know I'm missing some things, so I will update if I need to. Think of this as a more specialized overview of what one competitive Melee player thinks will be key elements in tourney play for this particular character. If you have questions, doubts, disagreements, then that is what this thread is for.
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Boy oh boy my droogs, how things have changed. Things have straight oscillated.
Charizard is amazing. Here you will find all my latest insight on Charizard as a competitive character.
Key Attacks
Fair: Everyone is talking about this attack, and there is a sexy reason for that. The conical flamethrower has good range (though not as much as you think, as I'll explain soon), good knockback for what it's for, comes out fast, and semi-spikes. You mainly want to land this move on airborne opponents, such as those who must recover. A true hit with this off the edge often means you get a gimp kill via edgehog. What I do not recommend, is the use of this in approaches done by short hopping. It has too much land lag, and does not really push shields back much. He has better options for this. Also, hitting with the ends of the flames does damage but no knockback, which is why it fails at zoning, since you actually want to get in close to get the desired effect.
No real counterpart
Ftilt: Just great. Great range, great sweetspot knockback, sufficiently quick. I was able to employ successful zoning by mixing this attack up with quick nairs and utilts. One thing to keep in mind is, as good an attack for controlling space and pressuring as this is, it can also often get you the kill at high percents, so it's up to you whether you want to sacrifice its knockback. Both routes have their advantages,.
Melee counterpart: Mewtwo's ftilt
Utilt: Great range above him, awesome speed, great combo potential. This move is much better than upsmash, and I cannot understand why people choose that over this. Great for platform pressuring, and like I said before, mixing it up with ftilts provides good space coverage.
Melee counterpart: Link's utilt is the best I can think of here. This has more range.
Dtilt: Great poke. I figure this will be like DK's dtilt in melee; it's fast, has good knockback, good range, but nobody uses it. Just a general poke basically, it's hella safe and relatively lagless.
Melee counterpart: DK's dtilt
Bair: My main KO move along with ftilt. It's strong and comes out quick. The second hit of this move (the tail hit) has incredible knockback. I also used it as bait by retreating with it. It's going to lag when you land though, as using it right as you jump is usually not the best option since goes right over people's heads and basically is like wearing a condom to watch Spongebob. It's kind of limp when the second hit doesn't hit, so learning how to land it is probably important. It's also probably important to learn to shield in this game.
Melee counterpart: ICs bair is similar in range and knockback.
Nair: Good out of shield to counter pressure and retreat. It covers all around Charizard, obviously, it's pretty much instant, although the knockback is nothing to wake the kids about. This you actually do want to use as soon as you short hop, since it lasts pretty much the entire SH and ends right before you land.
Melee counterpart: A much larger Pikachu nair, although with less knockback.
Uair: Instant, good range, decent knockback, good for aerial pressure and "juggling". Combined with Charizard's multiple jumps, you can also get kills off the top on low-ceiling stages by chasing opponents you've knocked upwards with utilt or a throw.
Melee counterpart: Don't know. I'm getting kind of tired of doing these "counterparts" anyway. Do they even help anyone?
Fsmash: Slow as hell, but deserves a mention since its strength can't be ignored and it's not impossible to hit with. Charizard rears back, so that helps him avoid hits somewhat. I'm not sure if this has super armor, though I don't think so. If anyone can confirm this, I would appreciate it. Super armor would be chocolate for this move.
Melee counterpart: Ganon's fsmash, or Bowser's.
Rock smash: It actually has uses. It has many hitboxes throughout its duration, and you can use it while airbourne obviously. I used it to retreat at times, since its ending lag is tolerable. It covers your front well, but really, use it sparingly.
No real counterpart goddammit
Up B: Good when used sparingly out of shield. Sparingly because although it is a good punish and can get kills at high percents, if you whiff, you are ****ed.
Melee counterpart: Marth's up B, maybe a tiny bit slower. And no sweetspot is necessary, as far as I can tell.
Jab: Good, fast. Kind of like Peach's b**** slaps. I use them often.
Dsmash: I found this impractical to use, I don't know. Knockback isn't really ground breaking (pun intended), but given its range and area of coverage it probably has more use than I've been giving it credit for. I'll update once I have the game and figure stuff out.
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Now on to generals:
- Charizard is a very heavy and large character with very good mobility. His ground speed is amazing, and is key in one aspect I have not yet mentioned:
- GRABS. Charizard is amazing at grabbing. His range seems to be incredible, and has useful throws both for getting people off the edge and setting them up for juggles. Dashing shield grabs and simple dash grabs with him are amazing, and I was surprised at how often and easily I could chase techs or rolls and grab. He basically has something similar to Marth's grab game in Melee. Yes, it's that good (minus the chain throws and juggling of course, let's not kid ourselves).
- His tilts are amazingly all around solid. They can be used for everything: zoning, pressure, KOs, pokes. Get comfortable with them, and find mixups with his also solid aerials.
- His aerials are all around also solid as a wine bottle. He has a great aerial game, bair retreats are great, fair gimps should be mastered, and nair is good to counter pressure (and to get pikmin off you).
- The approach that worked best for me was not by any means sh fairs. Dashing in and shielding is great for him, with the low lag of releasing your shield plus his great ground speed and grab range. SH nairs can actually be used to approach, given how there's no lag if you time it right, and no CC in brawl means this is harder to punish. His tilts are good for his approach as well, and the extent of their range is the space you generally want to keep between you and the opponent, since other than by using jabs and nairs, Charizard can get claustrophobic sometimes.
- Remember that while bair and ftilt are overall your best KO moves, they still are great for many other aspects of competitive play, and a nice balance between those uses can yield the best results.
New stuff:
- Anyone who ever played or analyzed a top level Marth knows that one of the things that made them so lethal was how hard he was to penetrate, given his quick and rangy options for zoning and controlling space. This usually meant retreating or stationary fairs and nairs in conjunction with dtilt, jabs, and utilts to create a wall between him and the opponent. Well, I'm not about to claim Charizard has all that just yet, but boy does he come close. Fairs can end before you land from a short hop, which means no lag, obviously. After landing, you have the options of jabs, which are near instant, or dtilt, which is also near instant, has amazing range, and amazing knockback as well. That's not even all. Dtilt has IASA frames! This means you can cancel the ending animation of the move with jabs, then jump, retreat with fair, then dtilt again when you land. It really is amazing, it creates quite a wall, and opponents will struggle to find ways to get through. You can easily predict rolls and counter them with quick turn around jabs or grabs, or even flamethrower (remember, it's not really safe, so be selective)! Jumpers can be easily caught with utilt or usmash. This is the kind of thing that bumps a character up a couple of tiers, and closes the gap between a slowish character and quicker ones. More than flawless execution (though it is essential), this is about learning to watch and read the opponent. When faced with an obstacle like this, most tend to do things outside of what safeness dictates they should be doing just to get through, and that is when you punish. I'll see if I can get a video of this soon.
- Fair gimps are too good. Remember that you can hit opponents slightly above you with it, but not so much below you. Every PT player should master this, since throwing characters off the stage can often lead to KO's at absurdly low percentages.
- Charizard's dash stop animation (just letting go of the stick while dashing) is very short, and has IASA frames, which you can take advantage of to perform quick utilts or other attacks. It's good to chase airborne opponents, or ones on platforms, by dashing, stopping, and interrupting the final frames with utilts. You can still use the shield to dash cancel if it's more comfortable, but if I'm not mistaken, this is a few frames faster.
This is all I have for Charizard and Ivysaur now. I will periodically update whenever I find anything new or come to realize what I said here was crap. Remember that this write-up is intended for people who already have seen PT in action, and have a general feel for how the attacks look and act, which is why I don't go into much discussion of aesthetics or % dealt. Squirtle may some day come too.
