This was a previous DISCUSSION, not SPECULATION - Tierr List Shrinking?

[darkNES386]

Many of you jumped at me before, but after reading some of gimpy's impressions now, I hope some of you can see that maybe it's possible that the overall distance from the highest tiers to the lowest tiers will hopefully shrink greatly. Let's try to be open-minded. I'm sure lover's of bowser and Dk would hope they can be competative against the like's of sonics and meta-knights.

 

[Lavos]

Unless every character is identical, tiers will always exist.

 

[Exorcist]

That'd be absolutely impossible. That'd be like saying that in mathematics the number 1 is repated 34 times before going to 2....

Hope the tiers are close together, don't fool you're mind into thinking that they'll absolutely be no tier list.



PS: What's with the random useless topic flood?

 

[MuraRengan]

Well it's not necessary that there are imbalances but the way SSB games are created cause tiers to exist naturally. If one char has a spike and another doesn't then that char already has that advantage over the other. Tiers in SSB cannot be avoided.

 

[Doggalina]

There are always tiers. It's a fighting game.

 

[Kirye]

There's always gonna be tiers. Even if they tried their best to balance everything out, people would still find ways to abuse something to the point where it makes their char stronger. That's how it works on Melee, that's how it works on every fighting game, and that's how it's gonna be for Brawl.

 

[darkNES386]

Please read the rest of the main post and stop answering the thread title, since we all know what the answer is.....

 

[RokkuManZer0]

In a fighting game there'll always be tiers. The thing is the tiers can be really close together so they won't make a big difference anyway, like in Guilty Gear.

The characters are pretty well balanced, of course there are some that are more noob friendly than others, but when played by good players they both have the same chance to win.

 

[Salaad]

Well it's not necessary that there are imbalances but the way SSB games are created cause tiers to exist naturally. If one char has a spike and another doesn't then that char already has that advantage over the other. Tiers in SSB cannot be avoided.

But now every character has a meteor so it's a bit more balanced.

 

[Kirye]

Please read the rest of the main post and stop answering the thread title, since we all know what the answer is.....

I did read the entire post, my post still stands the same.

 

[Takeshi245]

Please read the rest of the main post and stop answering the thread title, since we all know what the answer is.....

Then why waste time making a thread about it if you already know the answer already? It's ridiculous and Kirye's right .I'm sure Brawl will be more balanced, but not perfectly balanced to answer your balance question.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

The whole purpose of having different fighting styles is the reason that they are not balanced. Some people like using speedy characters which tend to dmg less and some people like power characters that does massive amounts of dmg, but tend to move slowly. Trying to balnce these characters would not make since. Should they give Bowser the speed of Fox simply because Fox is faster and his speed isn't balanced with Bowser's? No. It's simple, these characters each have unique or similar styles of fighting.

 

[darkNES386]

Should they give Bowser the speed of Fox simply because Fox is faster and his speed isn't balanced with Bowser's? No. It's simple, these characters each have unique or similar styles of fighting.

No, but to what extent should bowser's damage and fox's speed be? Should bowser's attacks deal even more damage than they already do, if he's not going to get off as many attacks. Should fox deal even less damage? Should it take even more of a percentage to send bowser flying?

Clearly throws in smash64 were something that needed to be changed since the fastest character could hurl the heaviest with the same ease.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

I get what your saying. I do think that the heavier characters should need more dmg to be sent flying seeing as their weight isn't that of Kirby's. That factor with Kirby should not be changed but for the heavier yes they should change that.

 

[Exorcist]

Please read the rest of the main post and stop answering the thread title, since we all know what the answer is.....

Then please change the wacky title you gave the thread.

 

[Burninator]

While there is no way tiers will disappear, we can hope that the game comes out a bit more balanced than Melee. However, with the addition of gliding and Footstool stomps, I don't think it will be all that different.

Also, there is one fighting game that people DO consider completely balanced, and that is Street Fighter II. This explains the fact that they sold 87 different versions (gross exaggeration, but you know there are a ton), all titled Street Fighter II.

 

[Takalth]

I'll start by explaining the tier list, since many people don't understand it:

The tier list represents ranking of characters in games played under tournament rules at the top of humanly achievable skill. Shiek isn't higher than bowser because she wins in a noob battle; she's higher because she wins in a pro battle. Learning curve has absolutely nothing to do with the tier list, otherwise, link and Ganondorf would be higher, and Ice climbers would be lower.

Moving on, a balanced game is in direct conflict with depth and variety. The more of those a game has, the more difficult it is to balance (Street Fighter 2 is more balanced than modern games because it's more shallow). As Smash is deeper than most fighting games, I would be very surprised if the bottom tier has a reasonable chance in national tournaments, though it might be reasonable to hope that the middle tier does.

As for what we'll actually see for the tier list, that depends on the mindset of the balance testers. If they do most of their balance testing in FFA with moderately skilled players, we'll see just as much of a tier gap in Brawl as Melee. If they put a decent share of focus on competitive play styles, we'll see much smaller differences between tiers.

 

[sugarpoultry]

Every fighting game in the world has tiers. So, no. They won't disappear.

 

[spikehappy07]

Man, tier lists...ah, screw em'. ANY character can beat ANY character if given enough practice. Chu Dat is an excellent example.

 

[Takeshi245]

Man, tier lists...ah, screw em'. ANY character can beat ANY character if given enough practice. Chu Dat is an excellent example.

Don't use that flawed argument. Chu Dat is an excellent player. He himself knows that Pichu is a TERRIBLE character. A talent of a player never makes a character any better. Certain characters will have more advantages than others and that will be the same in Brawl. Hence, why there will be a tier list for Brawl.

 

[sugarpoultry]

Man, tier lists...ah, screw em'. ANY character can beat ANY character if given enough practice. Chu Dat is an excellent example.

Start practicing then....

 

[Zevox]

The only way to not have tiers is to have everyone with exactly the same stats and abilities. Otherwise, the differences will always lead to imbalances - its unavoidable. Not only in fighting games, but in RPGs, adventure games, the whole of video games where there are differences between characters/creatures/etc. The differences can be made minimal, thus making the effect of tiers minimal (this was in fact the case with Melee; compared to most other games, it was one of the best balanced ones out there, and the tiers made almost no difference below the profession level and had little effect even there unless the characters were of vastly different tier ranks), but they cannot be negated.

Zevox

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Tiers are actually quite pointless. It's not the character, but the person using the character that counts.

 

[crush_T_asain]

ya like everyone said there will always be tiers...but i think if we want a more balenced game we have to add EVERYTHING like items on normal settings and use all the stages. its like taking the sword from link or the electricity from pikachu or the... air from kirby? i dunno but if you want some charecters to balence we have to eventually use the items we dont want and some stages

 

[konoha107]

We can hope that every character is so balenced that it would hardly be noticeable in regular gameplay. But there would still be tiers.

 

[Red Exodus]

No tiers exist is every game, unless every character is an exact copy of one model.

 

[RPK]

Even with games that they try to balance like guilty gear, will never work cause eventually, someone will find a way to make one character rise above another.

 

[SmashChu]

Keep in mind that teirs only apply to tournamnt rules. If you play with things l;like items, FFA and many courses, there really aren't any teirs. As long as tournament play stays they way it is, there will be teirs.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Tiers will exist, however Nintendo will try to balance them. The thing is Nintendo doesn't know **** about metagame.

 

[Red Exodus]

There are probably FFA tiers [tjat could be made], but no one would want to deal with scrubs at random FFA tournaments and most smashers wouldn't even consider playing FFA.

I imagine characters that rely less on combos would be the best in FFAs.

 

[SmashChu]

There are probably FFA tiers [tjat could be made], but no one would want to deal with scrubs at random FFA tournaments and most smashers wouldn't even consider playing FFA.

I imagine characters that rely less on combos would be the best in FFAs.

After playing Smash on all settings imaginable, I can say teirs are for tournamnt play only. Even a regular 1v1, FD, no items has no tiers (without advance tech.) except for Mewtwo and Pichu.

 

[error_alt_delete]

teirs only realy affect two players of the same skill level. out side of that anyone can win with anyone if they are more skilled thatn the other.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

As long as there are characters with different movesets, and different variables for weight, size, etc., there will be tiers. However:

1. Melee tier list will have no effect on Brawl's tier list. Different characters are likely to be good.

2. There is a possibility of Brawl being more balanced, making the difference between top and bottom tier smaller. Brawl could also be less balanced than Melee.

 

[Zjiin]

lol @ everyone jumping in this thread over just reading the title.

Yeah, i understand what you are trying to say, but the truth of the matter is when a game has just a few characters, it is easier to balance it out, since you can test each combination of match-ups against each other to the fullest extent without wasting too much time. The more characters you have, the more complicated it gets and it's not time/money efficient to test all that out. Brawl is gonna have a lot of character (more then melee that's for sure) and some characters will have a bigger advantage over others. It happens.

Now most people say this would create a tier list. I would say take the character on the bottom of the list, match it up against the guy on the top, and you have your first counterpick, which inevitably, creates tiers.

If nintendo could make a balanced game, as impossible as that would be, every other fighting game would get dropped and Smash would become a religion, lol.

 

[sugarpoultry]

As long as there are characters with different movesets, and different variables for weight, size, etc., there will be tiers. However:

1. Melee tier list will have no effect on Brawl's tier list. Different characters are likely to be good.

2. There is a possibility of Brawl being more balanced, making the difference between top and bottom tier smaller. Brawl could also be less balanced than Melee.

QTF. Thank you.

 

[Jammer]

Tiers are part of the metagame.

Suppose the characters were completely balanced. Played at the same skill level, they each have an equal chance of beating the others. I think we can all agree that that means they're balanced.

In our hypothetical situation, there would still be tiers, because we wouldn't play each character at the same skill level. It's like playing jigglypuff, and thinking her down b totally sucks--it just puts her to sleep. Then you accidentally rest a bowser at 60%, and you're like "???? Sweet!". Suddenly jigglypuff is that much better. She always had the cool down b, but you just discovered it.

That's why the tier list changes. People evolve the play of each character. The best played Pichu today, I'm sure, could cream the most skilled person playing fox two days after Melee came out. The fox player just wouldn't know about wavedashing and L-canceling and the like. If an expert Pichu player from today time traveled and went to a tournament a week after Melee came out, they would win, and Pichu would be top tier. For a short while.

The point is that the tier list is made by us humans playing each other, and evolves over time. The game has no control over that, and it can't change the situation.

 

[TheManaLord]

TIERS EXIST AND ALWAYS WILL IN EVERY GAME. ok get over it

 

[C.Olimar788]

Tiers will always exist, in any game, period. Unless the game is just a single character with a bunch of different looks (A.K.A. pathetically boring) tiers will be there. However, I hope that in Brawl tiers are much less drastic than Melee. Sakurai is trying to balance things out, after all.

 

[thesage]

Keep in mind that teirs only apply to tournamnt rules. If you play with things l;like items, FFA and many courses, there really aren't any teirs. As long as tournament play stays they way it is, there will be teirs.

Wrong, Peach, Fox, and Falco would still be broken. Peach as one of the best item games int the game. She can perform arials while holding pokeballs and such. Sheik sucks with items, and Marth receives projectiles (he's really good at throwing items). Jigglypuff using the screw ball can combo into rest. GaW sucks with items, pichu is ok with items (doesn't make up for suckiness though) and if anyone thinks Mewtwo is god tier with items, no. It just makes him a semi-playable character, he still sucks.

Tiers would still exist, just some positions would be slightly changed, if items were in tournaments.

 

[Banks]

people can't argue the existence of tiers anymore, it is so blatantly obvious some charcters do better than others. once brawl comes out the tiers will shift many times as new techniques are discovered, but they will always exist.