This was a previous DISCUSSION, not SPECULATION - Tierr List Shrinking?

[Digital Angel]

To TC it's possible actually but would require an immense amount of man power trillions of dollars (not kidding here) and some sort of super computer that is not invented yet as there would be an astronomical amount of variables involved to completely balance every character and allow every character to have an equal chance against each other. Even with these things I don't think you could completely balance it but perhaps come very close.

In short, it's not happening, the best thing we can hope for is constant updates from Wi-Fi to help power up weaker characters and maybe nerf stronger ones.

 

[Banks]

To TC it's possible actually but would require an immense amount of man power trillions of dollars (not kidding here) and some sort of super computer that is not invented yet as there would be an astronomical amount of variables involved to completely balance every character and allow every character to have an equal chance against each other. Even with these things I don't think you could completely balance it but perhaps come very close.

In short, it's not happening, the best thing we can hope for is constant updates from Wi-Fi to help power up weaker characters and maybe nerf stronger ones.

even then you'd have to make people learn the abilities of these characters at the same rate. its fricken impossible lol

 

[thesage]

I hope threre aren't any updates over wifi. It was a bummer getting used to playing just three versions of melee, imagine relearning the game that many times. Smash is different from MMORPG and FPS, cuz in MMORPG's tech skill isn't as important and in FPS your character doesn't matter that much (in the majority of them) as it does in smash. They can change gameplay aspects (if a stage is glitchy of something like that) but the characters should stay the same from release.

 

[Digital Angel]

even then you'd have to make people learn the abilities of these characters at the same rate. its fricken impossible lol

No, that be fault of the fallible humans who played it, if it was clearly balanced there would merely be untapped potential for various characters.

 

[Mambo]

Keep in mind that rock-paper-scisors is balanced and not all are the same. But there will be tiers and I think even if all the characters are about just as good at eachother (just good at different things) then there will be a discovery of somthing new (like wavedashing) that will set characters appart. I just hope they can get the new characters right though.

 

[Procrasticritter]

Tiers are actually quite pointless. It's not the character, but the person using the character that counts.

thank you, quoted for truth.

 

[THEmSHAKE]

Based on the current info, I'm not sure if it will be close in terms of being one of the more balanced games. However, with the current info it should be a big step up from melee. So maybe there wont be such a huge gap between say.....bowser and fox.

 

[Tony_]

Tiers are actually quite pointless. It's not the character, but the person using the character that counts.

QFE. Teirs are what kill fighting games. Just be the character you like being.

 

[xelad1]

Lol @ all the people saying QFT to mario and sonic guy... that is absolutely not true at all. If you aren't looking at a game from a competitive standpoint then of course tiers won't matter, but the fact is that there will always be better characters then others in games with distinct advantages. In some games (someone mentioned guilty gear which is true) tiers are less apparent, but if you take melee there are characters with distinct advantages and overall higher exhaustive potential than others.

Some characters have a chance to move up in tiers (like Ice climbers and Samus who both have currently unused and unexhausted possibilities) but you won't find them too far from the top tier. You won't see pichu all of a sudden dominating tournaments, unless there is some unexplainably good move that he has that is yet to be discovered. Tiers don't kill fighting games, its just a ranking of character ability mixed with tournament results, but the fact remains that a bowser player of equal skill with a fox player will pretty much always lose... period.

 

[Ghettoblasta]

Lol @ all the people saying QFT to mario and sonic guy... that is absolutely not true at all. If you aren't looking at a game from a competitive standpoint then of course tiers won't matter, but the fact is that there will always be better characters then others in games with distinct advantages. In some games (someone mentioned guilty gear which is true) tiers are less apparent, but if you take melee there are characters with distinct advantages and overall higher exhaustive potential than others.

Some characters have a chance to move up in tiers (like Ice climbers and Samus who both have currently unused and unexhausted possibilities) but you won't find them too far from the top tier. You won't see pichu all of a sudden dominating tournaments, unless there is some unexplainably good move that he has that is yet to be discovered. Tiers don't kill fighting games, its just a ranking of character ability mixed with tournament results, but the fact remains that a bowser player of equal skill with a fox player will pretty much always lose... period.

I couldn't agree more. If you think that tiers "kill" a game, then I would suspect that you don't play smash comptetively. Then again, it also comes down to the player and how much they want to get into a particular character. Tiers are going to exist regardless. Each character falls into different categories giving characters different variables which makes them different. Characters being different causes teirs to happen. If tiers were non existant, every character would play like mario. Just to make a comparison anyway. If you wanna keep playing Pichu in tournaments and get mad that you're getting destroyed, then thats on you. It's not my fault people play better characters. I look foward to seeing the tier list in Brawl. Bring it on.

 

[sugarpoultry]

Thank you xelad1, somebody with some sense.

Brawl will have all new tier lists; high and low. And now that Sonic is here (because Sonics moves look like Falco's), I bet he'll be the new Falco. Hmmmmm maybe high tier? We shall see!!!!!!

 

[Kirby M.D.]

Remind me never to read through one of these threads again.

Look OP and those who are anti-tier: It doesn't effing matter. Using the tier list as a john when it only really applies to pro-level competitive play derived from tournament data is ingratiating and noobish.

"Perfect balance" is a nigh-impossible concept in any game with varying options per character per player. The closest thing those games can get is having all characters have a fighting chance fresh out the box (which Smash and most good fighters do), and a decent variety of viable characters in the inevitable metagame (of which Smash has 10 out of 24, which is pretty **** close to GGXX's gold standard). Some characters will be better than others, period. It's a byproduct of variation that is ultimately unimportant.

As long as no one or two characters utterly destroy the rest of the cast wholesale (before BAWWWWing about the f'ing furries/Shiek: they do not, they are beatable) and the metagame stays changing, Brawl will be good. Hell, MvC2 has a strong following, and it may be one of the more broken fighters in the pile.

In summation: OP, don't make poorly worded topics that work up the easily impassioned, for they will either troll, *****, or make tl;dr posts like this.

 

[sugarpoultry]

Hehe thats right, no Johns people, no Johns!

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

Tiers will always be there. They can be balanced, not abolished.

The best we can hope for is that the developers take lessons from Capcom. In CvS2, there are like 16 top tiers, with most of the lower tiers still able to win tournaments given the situation. That is what Brawl needs.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Melee shrank to having roughly four characters who won all big tournaments. We can only hope that Brawl has approximately 12.

 

[the grim lizard]

Tiers or not, they can still make it very balanced.

And there's still always the rock, paper, scissors-type tier system...Who really knows with Sakurai? But it's obvious he wants to make up for characters like Bowser sucking in Melee...

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

Tiers are usually determined by how the community shapes the metagame, and usually the biggest factors in determining that with fighting games are "unintended" effects of certain attacks, and how well-prepared a character is for controlling space and playing defensively.

And to whoever said tiers don't matter, go read the community's general stance on tiers please. Tiers do matter. That doesn't mean Fox and Marth will win every time, just that in any battle featuring a higher tier vs. a lower tier character, with the players being of equal skill, the one using the higher tier character will have an overwhelming chance to win, barring SD's or the lower tier actually being a counter. Stop being so stubborn and realize it's not all black-and-white.

EDIT: It doesn't matter if you believe in tiers or not, that doesn't make them go away. A "bit" of skill isn't enough for anything btw. But whatever helps you all sleep at night.

 

[brandutt845]

Well I never really believed in tiers for Smash. I think any character can fight someone else with a bit of skill

 

[Negative Zero]

If the characters are different, there will be tiers. Even Starcraft, a game praised for its diversity and balance, has a tier list. It's not a fighting game, but the fact is that the only way to realistically make two things equal is to make them the same.

 

[Eight Sage]

Tiers won't disappear in Brawl..

Look at Sonic's trailer, Try to catch it in battle.He's Top tier for sure.

 

[Red Exodus]

Tiers are actually quite pointless. It's not the character, but the person using the character that counts.

O RLY? This is the dumbest thing I've heard in a while, get your facts straight, please.

 

[Takalth]

This thread is sad. If people didn't quit repeating the same comment, especially variations of "tiers will always exist unless every character is identical," there might have actually been some discussion. If somebody already said it, just allow them the credit for the statement.

BTW, all of you "tiers don't exist/don't matter" people...prove it. Show me an example of somebody winning a major tournament with anybody below the top half (you probably can't find any below the top theird).

 

[sugarpoultry]

Thank you Takalth.

Truth be told. You will never see the following characters form Melee win at top tourneys. EVER!!!

Samus
Doctor Mario
Jigglypuff
Mario
Ganondorf
Link
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Roy
Young Link
Pikachu
Yoshi
Zelda
Mr. Game and Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo

 

[Adi]

BTW, all of you "tiers don't exist/don't matter" people...prove it. Show me an example of somebody winning a major tournament with anybody below the top half (you probably can't find any below the top theird).

Bum @ Zenith.

hank you Takalth.

Truth be told. You will never see the following characters form Melee win at top tourneys. EVER!!!

Samus
Doctor Mario
Jigglypuff
Mario
Ganondorf
Link
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Roy
Young Link
Pikachu
Yoshi
Zelda
Mr. Game and Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo

HugS got 2nd at Evo World only bested by Ken. A good portion of the other characters have had representation in other smaller tournaments.

 

[raphtmarqui]

The tier list could be evened out this time around. Sakurai said he was making this game with balance in mind.

 

[Crizthakidd]

tiers will most likey be a lot closer unlike in melee if you use fox or marth u pwn every other char. lol it depends a lot more on skill now and how long can u survive

 

[thesage]

tiers will most likey be a lot closer unlike in melee if you use fox or marth u pwn every other char. lol it depends a lot more on skill now and how long can u survive

If you use Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, or Peach you will pwn every other character. The 5 mentioned have matchups that creates a system of checks and balances.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I fear there may be a large misunderstanding of the tier list. The tier list is merely a result of observation. People get to worked up about the list because their favorite characters are not as high as hoped. Yes, Brawl will most certainly have a tier list, but it is not some gospel that says you HAVE to use the top tiers. If you don't like a certain character then play as someone else.

One tournament victory does not suddenly "disprove" the tier list, either. ChuDat has been winning as Ice Climbers for ages, but they are still not the top four. That is because not enough players have exploited their true power.

The solution is easy: play as your favorite character and learn new tricks. Win at tournaments and push your character up the tier list. Whining about it does nothing. The bottom line is that tiers DO exist; they just don't dictate who is automatically going to win strictly on the base of being higher tier. >_>

 

[distr0ia]

there will always be tiers.

but that doesn't necessarily mean the game won't exhibit far more character balance than Melee. I think it WILL

 

[_X_]

O RLY? This is the dumbest thing I've heard in a while, get your facts straight, please.

The person with greater skill will win the highest percentage of games.

Eg. If both characters were playing Fox the better player would win the better half of the time.

If one is playing as Mewtwo and the other is playing as Fox the better player will still win.

There are INSANE "Low tier" players out there not to mention tiers take most of their value when dealing with big tournaments and not 1V1 play.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Considering how long Brawl is taking to come out, methinks the tier list will be much tighter than Melee's was.

 

[raphtmarqui]

^Yea the game has been in development for what, 2= years now?

 

[Red Exodus]

The person with greater skill will win the highest percentage of games.

Eg. If both characters were playing Fox the better player would win the better half of the time.

If one is playing as Mewtwo and the other is playing as Fox the better player will still win.

There are INSANE "Low tier" players out there not to mention tiers take most of their value when dealing with big tournaments and not 1V1 play.

That has been said over and over but most of the time the people getting beat while using high tiers either suck or get owned by someone who has spent a lot of time learning their character's frames and hitboxes as well as other characters' frames and hitboxes. The average tournament Joe wouldn't do so well with characters in medium tier which is why
people don't use this argument.

I myself am a Mario and Samus player, I dropped Fox and Marth recently because they don't suit my style anymore. I don't expect to do well with those characters unless I put in some work, while characters like Fox and Shiek require less work at lower levels but also have tons of options at higher levels of play.

 

[Omega_Star]

wtf nobs tires don exits

i to stok u

Joking aside, I'm thinking that Brawl will be more balanced.