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This is how to move good and do other things good too.

Discussion in 'Captain Falcon' started by gravy, Feb 2, 2015.

  1. gravy

    gravy
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    Smash Ace

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    Falcon movement is an extremely masterful topic, and fascinates me endlessly. Inside of our movement options lies the secret to success. The subtleties inherent within a character of his build allow for the most complex of options.

    I have already given you guys the optimized tech chase, but today's thread is not about being optimal. This time, the focus is on understanding your character fully. Movement, for me, is the ultimate expression of self. There is never a right or wrong, an optimal or suboptimal. There is only what you can do, and whether you can do it. Anyways, let's get started. I'm not exactly sure how I want to format this, so I'll start with all the fundamentals and attempt to tie them together.

    One last warning! I recently temporarily lost access to my debug mode. I can't fact check ANY of this until I get it back, so all these facts are off the top of my head. However, I'm extremely confident that I'm right anyways. I will fact check soon! Also, any part where I wrote sleepyk will eventually have some gifs attached, so just be patient if it's hard to visualize.

    DASHES

    The most basic of all, dashes are quite literally the most fundamental building block of falcon. Despite this, I feel that people don't understand the actual rules of our dashes, so here they are.

    There exists separate time limitations on falcons dash. They are all represented by different animations. The first one that I will discuss is the one everyone should be familiar with, and that is the limitation that separates DASH from RUN.

    As soon as you enter a certain threshold on your control stick (which is NOT, by the way, related to the deadzone) you will begin to dash. The only way that this is foiled is if you are too slow moving your control stick, and you will instead walk. Now, the character animation shows falcon essentially gaining speed and breaking into a full sprint. On the 15th frame of dash, his animation will show him in a full sprint. If you continue to hold your stick forward from frame 1-16, falcon will enter run. Sleepyk* I want to focus heavily on that time frame before entering run, and the implications there of. Let me start by listing the unique options that are available in either state. Most other options, such as dash jump, is actually mutually available in both states.

    Dash:
    Pivot
    Shield stop (if a character is in dash animation before they shield, they will immediately stop momentum in one frame. If the character is in run before hitting shield, they will keep their momentum for 3 frames before coming to a stop!) Sleepyk*

    Run:
    Crouch
    Teeter cancel (a teeter cancel is when you stop running right before hitting a ledge, you character teeters to a stop which gives you full control back.)

    This may seem like a small or inconsequential list, but it absolutely is not. Turning around is what separates the boys from the men. Now, you CAN turn around, or restart a dash, from the crouch animation. The crouch animation itself lasts for 7 frames. During these 7 frames you can not dash in either direction. After you fully have entered your crouch, you can dash again in either direction. HOWEVER, in order to dash backwards from the crouch animation you must go from holding down to holding backwards in one frame or less! The crouch animation is immediately cancelable with smashes and tilts though (probably more but I have to test.)

    Now, let's expand more on the options that are available out of dash!

    First and foremost, you have what I like to call "empty pivot."Sleepyk* This is a very simple option! You simply turn your character around and stop in place. There are two main methods to do this! There's the stupid way, which is done by flicking your stick in a dash backwards motion and then releasing it to neutral as fast as possible. This is for stupid idiots because it depends on the tightness of your control stick almost entirely, and you can not be so precise about the amount of time your stick is in "dashing the other way" range.

    The second way to do an empty pivot is to do a quarter circle, similar to in street fighter. You simply dash backwards and begin to rotate your stick to downwards. Ideally, you would be transitioning from backwards to downwards exactly one frame after transitioning from neutral to backwards. Be controlled about your movement instead of being frantic! In my experience, a firm and constant speed is best.

    Now, once you have committed to an empty pivot, you have a few limitations on your options! Mainly, you can not turn around, crouch, or start another dash for 11 frames!Sleepyk* This is a very powerful option regardless. Compare this to wavedash down, which serves the same purpose while completely eliminating all options for 14 frames!

    There's a way to exploit one of these limitation that I have found. Since you can't turn around for 11 frames, if you start holding backwards immediately after empty pivot (essentially turning quarter circle into a half circle,) you can press a with no fear of doing a ftilt! This means that pivot jab is EXTREMELY easy with this method. The game completely can not read the directional input, so it will be a jab no matter what. Another exploit is simply to hold backwards after an empty pivot so that you "buffer" a turnaround, strictly for orientation purposes!

    Moving on! The next major option to discuss are pivot actions! These are different than pivot stops because they are based entirely on timing between two button presses, instead of being a control stick motion. This is very simple to understand and difficult to execute. All you need to do is dash backwards. As close to exactly one frame later as possible, input one of the possible pivot actions! Off the top of my head, the relevant pivot actions are grab, smashes, tilts, and most importantly, jump. Now, in order to be disciplined with this action, I like to continue to hold my dash back input as I input the second action! Sleepyk*

    For example, let's say I want to pivot grab. I'm dashing forward, and I move my control stick through the center and start holding backwards. One frame later I want to press z for the grab! By never letting go of my control stick, I'm ensuring that I timed my grab correctly, and I'm not cheating myself by doing something like empty pivot---->grab.

    As far as shield goes, I think, beyond its obvious use, shield has two uses out of dash. You can use the sudden stop in momentum to perfectly space a jump, or to perfectly space a grab. This is where the technology I like to call "shield stop buffered jumps" comes in. The idea behind this is that if you're dashing, and you flick your c stick upwards right before hitting shield, you will buffer a jump out of shield. This ensures that you get the exact minimal amount of time wasted while still exploiting the movement to the highest level. Remember, in order to avoid a full hop, the c stick must not be help up by the time you leave jumpsquat! Sleepyk*

    The most important thing that you need to take from what I've said so far is this: the jump that falcon does from a standing position "neutral jump" is accessible from dash in EXACTLY TWO WAYS, and both these ways only add one extra frame of lag if performed correctly. NEUTRAL JUMP IS EXTREMELY POWERFUL, but I'll get to that later.

    There is one more limitation to add to the initial dash of falcon! If falcon dashes from a stand still, he can not dash backwards for 4 frames! I don't know why, but it's true. However, once he's established constant dashing this restriction is gone.

    So now I have shown you how to exactly access all of your options out of dash, let me even further expand your options by saying that you can dash at different speeds! The ultimate sorcery of falcon is that not only does he have the best dash dance, but he can mimic the dash dances of other characters as well by purposefully slowing his dash. If you start by holding your control stick slightly above the "halfway down" notch, you'll see what is essentially falcons slowest initial dash speed. All the limitations that I've already gone over still apply exactly to a lesser speed dash. Sleepyk*

    FOXTROT

    So I feel as if the foxtrot mechanic has never been explained fully. The foxtrot is a 28 frame animation always! It's almost exactly twice the time of a normal dash, as you can see. There are some unique factors of a foxtrot that separate it from a normal dash. The first is that a foxtrot will always finish itself regardless of the time spent dashing, and the speed/distance of the foxtrot is dependent on the speed of your dash. For example, if you hold dash for only one frame and then release, falcon will spend 27 frames finishing out the foxtrot animation. Sleepyk* Of course, at any point in a foxtrot you are technically dashing, and your options reflect that.

    On the exact other end of the spectrum, if you dash for the full 15 frames, and then release to neutral, falcon will finish the foxtrot by executing another 13 frames of dash! I think of this as a max distance foxtrot, and it is very significantly longer than the normal 15 frame dash! Sleepyk*

    Now, if you begin to hold forward again at any point from frame 16-20 of a foxtrot, you WILL enter run immediately. That generally sucks.
    However, from that point on in the foxtrot, you have the option to renew a dash in the direction you're already going. No momentum rules transfer to this mechanic... Your character will immediately start a dash as if he was standing still. Sleepyk*

    That's basically all there is to cover on foxtrotting, but I would like to go over the implications of it. First and foremost, the max distance foxtrot is absolutely the fastest way to travel forward while maintaining your dash options. I tested this by doing two max distance foxtrots in a row (which totals to 56 frames) and marking the distance. I compared it to multiple other forms of dashing forward that took 56 frames, and I was never able to reach the same distance.

    Secondly, the time you have to access your amazing options is nearly doubled. You must realize, however, that for all the time you spend to choose foxtrotting without holding forward, the muscle memory for all your tech skill needs to be slightly different. The origin of your control stick motion must change from fully forwards to fully neutral. This is incredibly important!

    TURNING AROUND

    This is a short section, but is incredibly important to master. Technically, pivoting and turning around are the same thing, but I'm stressing this because there are different situations in which falcons fail at this. YOU MUST BE ABLE TO HANDLE THE TURN AROUND. It is always adding one simple frame to your motions, and it can not be ignored. This is most noticeable when trying to dash backwards from a standing position. You must intellectually acknowledge that the amount of time you need to hold your control stick is exactly double the amount of time you need to dash forwards! Another good exercise to practice is sequencing an immediate turn around jump into your normal actions. For example, after an l cancel, practice jumping again as soon as possible without missing the turn around. After trying this, think of another action you could sequence it together with. Master this! Orientation is an incredible mechanic.

    This is all there is to be written about the dash mechanics of falcon. A true master of the character would subconsciously internalize all of these mechanics. Your rhythm is completely under your control. Now on to the second and last section I'm going to cover.

    JUMPS

    Jumps are analog. That statement singlehandedly encompasses an incomprehensible amount of control that can be had. This is the true "20XX" of falcon. It is a tech skill that is hard to see, but the effects are easy to feel. No one will freak out when you master this, because it doesn't involve pressing buttons as fast as possible. Despite that, the amount of control you gain from this will make you win, and keep winning.

    The mechanics of an analog jump apply to both the neutral jump and the dash jump, with minor differences. There are two major aspects to be considered in an analog jump. They are INITIAL VELOCITY (IV) and aerial mobility.

    Let me focus first on the IV. IV is determined solely by the second to last frame of a characters velocity. Imagine the control stick as representing a scale from 0-10, including all non integers. The exact center of the stick is 0, and the furthest right is 10. Absolutely any number that you hold on this scale during the second to last frame of jumpsquat will exactly determine your IV. There is no deadzone for this mechanic. Of course, you can also hold backwards varying amounts, but thinking of 0-10 helps for simplification.


    I want to stress that the last paragraph is quite likely the most important of all. I suggest re-reading it and trying to understand it fully.


    Since this concept alone encompassed a ridiculous amount of options, I'll show my point by only showing 4 options. These are dash jumps with 4 different IVs (-10, 0, 5, 10) Sleepyk*


    Anyways, aerial mobility works by either adding to or counteracting your IV. Thus, your IV and aerial mobility are meant to work together in harmony to achieve your goal. Using them together in a masterful way, falcon can jump into many different ranges with many different angles. As far as I can tell, all airborne frames contain the same potential for aerial mobility. Thus, there is one critical frame before being airborne that determines IV, and the rest of the frames before you land are simply used to add to or work against that IV.


    The major difference between neutral jump and dash jump is that if you dash jump with maximum IV, aerial mobility in the direction you jumped does nothing. You are already traveling at max velocity, so you simply can not hold forward and travel further. Falcon will not slow down if your control stick is resting at 0 while airborne. Acting against your velocity will have a drastic effect, of course. Furthermore, if your IV was equal to a random number below 10, such as 5, you would indeed be able to hold forward after your jump. Falcon will approach max velocity once more, but never surpass it.


    In a neutral jump, falcon will lose velocity of his own accord. If your IV is 10 and you hold 0 while airborne, your jump goes about half distance. You must continue to hold 10 the whole time while airborne if you wish to reach the maximum distance. Overall, neutral jump gives you significantly more control over your velocity than dash jump. This is why I think it's usually better to use as an attack when you're already within that range.


    It's time for me to wrap this up, but let me finish by saying that the number one most important thing is that you can flexibly and perfectly combine any and all of the concepts that I've covered in this. Some of them are EXTREMELY technically demanding (Dash 15 frames, release to neutral until frame 21-28, shield stop buffer jump forward Sleepyk*) but it is your job to think of and master all possibilities that I have laid out for you. I will return to this thread and cover more aspects of movement, as well as check my work, but these are WITHOUT A DOUBT the most fundamental and important things to learn.


    Get to work, there's much to be done.
     
    Haku_, GoodleShoes, ELStalky and 40 others like this.
  2. gravy

    gravy
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    Smash Ace

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    Reserved pls ty
     
  3. gravy

    gravy
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    Smash Ace

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    Wait wait reserve this too just in case
     
  4. hectohertz

    hectohertz
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    Smash Ace

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    i like your writings on smash a lot gravy
     
  5. bertbusdriver

    bertbusdriver
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    YO good stuff. I needed some of this for sure.
     
  6. protato

    protato
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    my brain is pulsating with knowledge oh man
     
  7. JulioCoolJazz

    JulioCoolJazz
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    This is not what I expected to read when I opened this thread, but the information here seems invaluable for Falcons who want to fully control their character. Can't wait to see SleepyK's gifs so I can get a better understanding of what you're talking about here!
     
  8. Bose

    Bose
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    Den lengste kølla

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    I'm a fox main, but this is still a very nice read. Good stuff! The teeter cancel stuff blew my mind also, I found out a lot of fancy setups I could use it for. I'll make a video about it soon, it seems the technique is not that well known.
     
    n0ne likes this.
  9. tauKhan

    tauKhan
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    I feel that many aspects of basic movement, especially the way your control stick alters jumps are not generally well understood, so I appreciate this thread! Also I'm very surprised to find a cf movement thread with no mention of moonwalking :O .I have few additions and minor fixes to the op:

    Pivoting: Here is an input output diagram of your options during Wait which showcases the input requirement of smash turn that remains the same during dash. The picture is courtesy of @Kadano
    [​IMG]
    In order to empty pivot, (as you said) you need to have your control stick in the smash turn area for precisely one frame, because otherwise the turn is cancelled into dash on frame 2 (This is called dash back). So you want your turn input to register as close to the border of the crouch area as possible. The way I do this is I start moving my thumb down about at the time I go through center. This way the control stick is already moving toward the crouch zone when the turn registers. Another thing you can do is to try to very precisely to the border of the turn zone and rolling the stick to crouch zone.

    For pivot grabbing I recommend to option select pivot jc grab: Turn overrides jump during dash, so if you try to jc grab at the same frame you dash, the jump doesn't happen. Thus you can try to jc grab at the same time you turn, so that if you are frame perfect, your jump doesn't happen and you get pivot grab. If you are 1 frame late, you get pivot jc grab, which is functionally the same as pivot grab except it's 1 frame slower, which usually doesn't matter. So you don't lose anything with this os, but gain 2 frame window for the grab instead of 1.

    General turnarounds: It's important to understand that there are two different kind of turns: tilt turns and smash turns. Tilt turns are done by slightly inputting side (shown in the diagram) OR holding to side during lag so that smash input isn't active anymore. Tilt turn cannot be done during dash. The big difference with tilt turn is that if you jump, shield or slide off during tilt turn at the beginning of the turn, you will not be turned, instead your orientation will reverse back to the original. The amount of the frames until orientation is changed is char dependent, I don't know it for cf. However if you attack or grab, the turn isn't cancelled.

    Smash turns require smashing the stick, same way as dashes do. Smash turn changes your orientation immediately. If you want to do as quick turn jumps for example if you want to turnaround aerial after lag, or turn around wd to ledge, smash turn lets you to do that much quicker than tilt turn. So if you are missing turns, it's probably because you are doing tilt turns. I also feel that smash turns have some potential that aren't yet fully utilized: For example smash turn jump bair is the fastest way to get a stationary bair out of wait.

    Dashes:

    I don't think there's any way to modify the initial speed given by dash. I tried to do dashes with falcon in slow motion by releasing the stick immediately after dashing. However small input I managed to make, Falcon always ended up at the same spot at the end. So the slow dashes are actually just utilizing the fact that your stick position alters your dash acceleration, and with falcons acceleration the differences are huge. So the small dashes are mechanically same as moonwalking, except you are don't alter the acceleration as radically. I'm not 100% on this, because @Kadano 's diagram also has slow dash zone in it, but I can't make it work in practice.

    The following point may be a misunderstanding on my part, but I also think it's good to stretch the point. Dashes always maintain your previous speed, (Though when dashing back, the smash turn before out of dash actually cancels momentum before the next dash happens) so dashing forward out of dash isn't the same as dashing from Wait with no momentum. This is especially visible with marth's multimoonwalk: Moonwalking is mechanically just foxtrotting, and you can see how the second dashes initial velocity is simply added to your previous momentum.

    Terminology:

    I find your use of foxtrot slightly confusing. I have always thought foxtrot refers to the act of dashing forward out of dash, which is only possible during it's own window that is place after run window ends with every character. I think it's better to just refer to animations as Dash and Run, running being an option during a certain window in Dash. It's not necessary to refer to the part of the dash after the run window is over as foxtrot, since it's still the same dash animation, with many of the same options still available.

    Jumping:

    This is a part which was very useful for me and I learned a lot when doing research for this response, so thank you! I have a correction for your post. I apologize if I'm wrong about details, and hope that someone fills me out. I don't have access to dolphin/debug modes, my observations are from the normal game in slow motion.

    There is no "neutral jump" and "dash jump" as such. I think that when you jump, your velocity on the first aerial frame (the IV as you refer to it) is your prior velocity + some velocity based on the control stick position. Then after that you can use aerial mobility to alter your velocity on any given frame as you said. You can grow your velocity with aerial mobility ONLY if your velocity is smaller than your terminal horizontal aerial velocity (TAV) in the fall animation. Captain falcons max velocity during jump animation is a lot higher than the TAV, so you can go a lot faster from jump done with previous momentum. It's interesting to note that if you full jump with max jump velocity, your speed will automatically slow down to your TAV after the jump animation ends and you go into regular fall.

    There is no difference between jumping with speed and from stationary regarding aerial mobility rules: If you release the stick on the first aerial frame, the speeds remain the same in both cases at first. Then your velocity slows down automatically at a certain point in the jump animation, or perhaps when your jump animation ends and you go into fall animation. I tested this in 1/4th speed practice mode: If I jump holding fully forward and release the stick midair, and then before the apex of the jump press full forward again, I go exactly as far as I do holding forward throughout the jump. I'm not sure if you reach your TAV by only the added vector from jump, so you might have to first hold a bit forward to get to your TAV. It's also clear that if you moonwalk and then jump while your velocity is zero, the jump works exactly same as jump from stationary speed.

    After all this, I don't mean at all that pivot or shield stop jumps aren't useful. It's often SUPER useful to be able to stop your momentum before jump. With pivot jump you can retreat from your opponent faster after an aerial because you can actually start your jump with backward momentum which isn't possible if you have dash momentum working against it.

    Whoa, hopefully someone is ready to read this post, it grew a bit long lol.
     
    #9 tauKhan, Feb 3, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2015
  10. Varist

    Varist
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    Relevant information for all characters and very crucial
     
    darkatma and tauKhan like this.
  11. KneeJustice

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    Captain Falcon is Mr. Melee.

    He is a beautifully deep character who thrives on the thing that makes melee a truly exceptional game: movement options. Falcon doesn't rely on BS like shines or float cancels to win: he thrives on general technology that the rest of the cast has access to.

    Thanks for the great recent posts Gravy. The Falcon boards need both knowledge and inspiration to banish the darkness of 20XX
     
    Theftz22 and ElRudo like this.
  12. Devilsbabe

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    Great great info @gravy and @tauKhan, thanks so much.

    I decided to start practicing pivots a few days ago so this thead comes right on time.

    I especially like the quarter circle method you point out for empty pivots. I tried it out and definitely feel more in control than with my previous flick and pray.
     
    Macdaddy53156a likes this.
  13. -=Untamed-Beast=-

    -=Untamed-Beast=-
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    Shoutouts to SleepyK*.
     
  14. DruP

    DruP
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    I super pumped for when SleepyK gets these gifs on here
     
  15. SoapSuds

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    @tauKhan I did some research into dashes tonight and found that you can actually affect the speed of the first 15 frames of dash. I did some tests on battlefield using the purple lines that pop up and shielding after frame 15. Dashing all the way left I got 9 lines away from that yellow glowy thing under the side of the center https://imgur.com/nYE9UBj away. Dashing right above the lower notch led to be being 13 lines away from the same reference point. I also took some more pictures of different foxtrot and 15 frame lengths that are in this album http://imgur.com/rNni91Y,CNG6r0P,8MnJhtf,fq0mh1X#0 (full meaning the 28 frame dash and full dash meaning held forward for 15 frames)

    Also while I was working today I found a fast way to grab ledge. Just run into it, ledge cancel the ending, turn around and jump. No stick input required and then you grab ledge. This is much easier and less scary for me than doing the run turn and wave dashing off, not sure about it being faster though.
     
    #15 SoapSuds, Feb 11, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2015
  16. tauKhan

    tauKhan
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    Yeah, that's the result of dash acceleration which is also used in moonwalks the same way. What I said was that there seems to be no way of affecting the amount of initial speed you get from a dash: If you dash into corner and release immediately, you get exact same dash length than if you dash full input and release immediately. Also foxtrot is the act of dashing forward out of dash. If you dash and let go off the stick and wait for your dash to end, it's just a dash.

    I agree that using different dash accelerations to throw your oppenent off is very underutilezed though.
     
    #16 tauKhan, Feb 11, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2015
    kyaputenfarukon07 and SoapSuds like this.
  17. SpiderMad

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  18. tauKhan

    tauKhan
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    @SpiderMad Yeah, double checked that just to make sure, but he's clearly mistaken. The first frames of shield out of run don't seem to have much traction though so you don't lose much if any distance if you shield for an instant.
     
    SpiderMad likes this.
  19. gravy

    gravy
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    Smash Ace

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    Taukhan sorry it took so long to respond, this is quite a post to tackle on mobile
    This is true but also lazy ;)

    [/quote] General turnarounds: It's important to understand that there are two different kind of turns: tilt turns and smash turns. Tilt turns are done by slightly inputting side (shown in the diagram) OR holding to side during lag so that smash input isn't active anymore. Tilt turn cannot be done during dash. The big difference with tilt turn is that if you jump, shield or slide off during tilt turn at the beginning of the turn, you will not be turned, instead your orientation will reverse back to the original. The amount of the frames until orientation is changed is char dependent, I don't know it for cf. However if you attack or grab, the turn isn't cancelled.[/quote]

    I wish I could confirm or deny but my 20xx is broken :( I will say, if you need to "smash turn" then that's the same tech skill of pivot jumping. They're also incredibly important



    [/quote] I don't think there's any way to modify the initial speed given by dash. I tried to do dashes with falcon in slow motion by releasing the stick immediately after dashing. However small input I managed to make, Falcon always ended up at the same spot at the end. So the slow dashes are actually just utilizing the fact that your stick position alters your dash acceleration, and with falcons acceleration the differences are huge. So the small dashes are mechanically same as moonwalking, except you are don't alter the acceleration as radically. I'm not 100% on this, because @Kadano 's diagram also has slow dash zone in it, but I can't make it work in practice.[/quote]

    yah we're not talking about the same thing. I'm talking about making the 1-15 frames of dashing slower by dashing to a notch instead of fully forward. I do also do all my testing on console though. If I had a comp setup I would be the god of info and gifs, I promise.



    [/quote] I find your use of foxtrot slightly confusing. I have always thought foxtrot refers to the act of dashing forward out of dash, which is only possible during it's own window that is place after run window ends with every character. I think it's better to just refer to animations as Dash and Run, running being an option during a certain window in Dash. It's not necessary to refer to the part of the dash after the run window is over as foxtrot, since it's still the same dash animation, with many of the same options still available.[/quote]

    I agree with what you're saying. But to clarify, I was referring to frames 16-28 of a dash as a foxtrot


    [/quote]This is a part which was very useful for me and I learned a lot when doing research for this response, so thank you! I have a correction for your post. I apologize if I'm wrong about details, and hope that someone fills me out. I don't have access to dolphin/debug modes, my observations are from the normal game in slow motion.

    There is no "neutral jump" and "dash jump" as such. I think that when you jump, your velocity on the first aerial frame (the IV as you refer to it) is your prior velocity + some velocity based on the control stick position. Then after that you can use aerial mobility to alter your velocity on any given frame as you said. You can grow your velocity with aerial mobility ONLY if your velocity is smaller than your terminal horizontal aerial velocity (TAV) in the fall animation. Captain falcons max velocity during jump animation is a lot higher than the TAV, so you can go a lot faster from jump done with previous momentum. It's interesting to note that if you full jump with max jump velocity, your speed will automatically slow down to your TAV after the jump animation ends and you go into regular fall.

    There is no difference between jumping with speed and from stationary regarding aerial mobility rules: If you release the stick on the first aerial frame, the speeds remain the same in both cases at first. Then your velocity slows down automatically at a certain point in the jump animation, or perhaps when your jump animation ends and you go into fall animation. I tested this in 1/4th speed practice mode: If I jump holding fully forward and release the stick midair, and then before the apex of the jump press full forward again, I go exactly as far as I do holding forward throughout the jump. I'm not sure if you reach your TAV by only the added vector from jump, so you might have to first hold a bit forward to get to your TAV. It's also clear that if you moonwalk and then jump while your velocity is zero, the jump works exactly same as jump from stationary speed.

    After all this, I don't mean at all that pivot or shield stop jumps aren't useful. It's often SUPER useful to be able to stop your momentum before jump. With pivot jump you can retreat from your opponent faster after an aerial because you can actually start your jump with backward momentum which isn't possible if you have dash momentum working against it.

    Whoa, hopefully someone is ready to read this post, it grew a bit long lol.[/quote]

    Actually there really is a difference, especially in the tech skill. They both slow you down, but actually if you dash jump and hold forward fully during the third frame of jumpsquat, you will travel full distance even if you never hold forward again.

    If you neutral jump forward and release you will not travel the full distance.

    Edit: I don't know how to make quotes work on mobile. Also, WHO WILL FINISH THE GIFS FOR THIS GUIDE
     
    #19 gravy, Feb 13, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2015
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  20. tauKhan

    tauKhan
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    I see what you are saying, it's kinda matter of interpretation. Mechanically same rules apply, but there's a slight execution difference due to the existence of TAV. The reason why you go full distance even if you release the stick is that if your speed is high enough, the slow down during the jump doesn't decelerate you below your TAV, and you then switch to precisely TAV when the jump animation ends, and cannot accelerate with mobility to go faster than that. If your initial speed is slow enough, you will decelarete below the TAV, and thus can go faster by starting to hold forward after the slow down.

    But yeah it's still important to know the execution difference. I guess I also don't like the term dash jump because I play other chars which have a few other ways to attain significant momentum, like wavelanding and walking as well as dashing.

    Also you should play around smash turning out of wait, I believe it has some uses for falcon too ;). If you want to confirm it's existence, you can pause buffer jumps/shield during turn frames done with slight inputs and during the 1 frame of turn that happens if you smash your stick back, that's how I did it. There's also documentation by kadano if you want that.
     
  21. gravy

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    Why would it be a coincidence that the TAV is only reached via a full speed dash jump?

    I did confirm the smash turn though, and my thoughts on it are simple, it's the same as a pivot so I'm just doing the same tech skill.
     
  22. Bobojack

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    Gravy thanks for your help in developing CFs Meta but it is really hard to really understand all of this.. Is there anyway you could start streaming Melee and show us the things you mean. It is also way easier to explain it and asking questions. A question: So I am supposed to dash and then move the joystick a little bit *before* jumping to change the jumps distance?
     
  23. AirFair

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    Marth tho

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    Great job on the guide!
     
  24. tauKhan

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    I'm not sure if I understand your question correctly, but it's basically a result of falcon having high dash speed, slow walk and high traction and high terminal velocity during jump animation. It's different with other chars. Besides which I don't think full dash speed is required for falcon to achieve max jump velocity. Not sure though.

    There's slight difference in execution for smash turn out of wait, because you can tilt turn during wait unlike during dash. This means that you must move the stick to smash turn area within 1 frame or else you'll tilt turn. So some pivoting methods which include moving stick slowly don't work, but it's mostly the same.
     
  25. gravy

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    If I dash jump, but choose during the third frame of jumpsquat to have my control stick 90% to the brim, he will not reach the full distance.
     
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  26. the wizard howl

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    I can't do the quarter-circle pivot even semi-consistently at half-speed but have no problems with the flick at full-speed.
     
  27. gravy

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    Smash Ace

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    Uhh you probably haven't practiced enough ;)
     
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  28. Bobojack

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    I dont get the quarter-circle method.. I always either crouch or I start to moonwalk. :confused:
     
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  29. gravy

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    I actually noticed today that the best way to practice my quarter circle pivot is to try doing a pivot down smash with your control stick only. That's the same motion as my pivot.
     
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  30. tauKhan

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    For the downward empty pivot, try to hit at close to the Smash turn / tilt turn / crouch zone intersection area before rolling down to crouch zone. You are supposed to barely touch the dark blue area in the picture of my first post in this thread. Watch your control stick at first when you practice, and try to visualize where the smash turn area is.

    I just realized that the slower max speed in fall animation is completely related to the animation. So if you delay going in to fall by doing an aerial before your jump ends, your jump will be longer and go faster at the end. If you land quickly, for example with short hop on flat surface, the effect doesn't occur because you land sooner than the jump ends though.
     
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  31. Bobojack

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    Ahhhh, that helped a ton! Ill start praacticing it from now on. (But I can only do it to the right just like moonwalking :/ ) Maybe Ill try to implement it into my dashdancing (and maybe some moonwalks too) to confuse my opponents. Im starting to really like empty pivots, haha.
     
  32. Spak

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    [ quote ]
    blahblahblah
    [ /quote ]

    (With the spaces taken out)
     
    #32 Spak, Feb 19, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2015
  33. BTmoney

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    a l l b e c o m e $

    • Premium
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    stealing with marth
     
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  34. AJawesome07

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    So, after reading this thread, my puny little brain has been blown all over the goddamn walls. I've always loved smash, but only started practicing seriously for about 6 months now. I think I understand the game pretty well, I just don't have the techskill yet.

    How do you think I should practice movement, and what kind of movement do you think is the most important to master?
     
  35. gravy

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    This whole thread is about exactly what to practice! Analog jumps and control of your dash are the most important skills.
     
  36. AJawesome07

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    Right, and thank you for the reply, gravy. after reading this thread I've been watching a lot of your sets and you're one of the most exciting Falcons I've seen. But I may have worded my first message poorly. When I said that I "don't have the techskill yet", what I really meant was that I don't have the precision to do some of the things described in the post. So the better question would probably be: what movement techs are most important for a beginning falcon, and how do you recommend I practice them?
     
  37. Spak

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    Hero of Neverwinter

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    Gravy might have a different opinion on the best way to train alone, but I've always followed F. Zero's advice in How to Train your Falcon.

    The Vid:
     
  38. gravy

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    Smash Ace

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    I just think that this is what you should be doing, even as a beginner. It's not as intimidating as you think! Just slowly feel out all the timings I'm describing (how far can I dash before I enter run?)

    Do this through your whole career starting now. If you want even more basic, you have to be able to do simple wavedashes and getting all your shffls.
     
  39. AJawesome07

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    Thanks. As far as the most basic and important advanced techs, like wavedashes and shffls, I have those down. But more advanced movement techs and combos, I definitely need to practice more. But you're totally right, I just need to try things.
     
  40. Sizzurp

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    A lot of this stuff feels intuitive, like the IV vs aerial mobility stuff, although it's nice to have it modelled so discretely. The pivot stuff, especially with the explanation on how best to perform those actions, was incredibly helpful. Pivot grabs were always something that I just did "sometimes" but obviously if it can be done once it can be replicated and done all the time.

    This was the most informative post I've seen on the boards to date. Thanks for the info!
     

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