Think you might be a Scrub? Know that you're not? Look here anyway.

[Seison]

Hey, I decided to create this thread in order to give anyone who hasn't already seen/read "Playing to Win" by David Sirlin the chance to do so.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw

I just heard about this for the first time earlier today when SamuraiPanda linked to it in a thread about Chaingrabs. I wanted to see what it was he linked to, and upon reading a few lines, I decided I had to read the whole "book" (it's not very long).

Some people might think that the information and ideas presented here are obvious, but I challenge anyone to read the entire thing and tell me that it contains nothing remotely insightful. I think this is something that every gamer (competitive or non) can benefit from in some way or another.

I'm interested to know what those of you who have seen this before think of it. I thought it was a great read.

To anyone who has never seen/heard of this book, I pray you, at least read the collection of sections entitled "Intermediate’s Guide." It provides a wonderfully relevant perspective on competitive gaming.

and finally, I realize that nowhere in this manuscript is Smash Brothers even mentioned, but I don't think that effects its relevance to our community. Also, I know this not new, and realize that many people HAVE probably at least perused it before, but I'm equally sure that many of you have not, so with that, adieu.

 

[-Linko-]

Oh My God! This is so new and has never been posted!

 

[Seison]

and finally, I realize that nowhere in this manuscript is Smash Brothers even mentioned, but I don't think that effects its relevance to our community. Also, I know this not new, and realize that many people HAVE probably at least perused it before, but I'm equally sure that many of you have not, so with that, adieu.

*facepalm*

 

[Darkurai]

Oh My God! This is so new and has never been posted!

Oh My God! This is such a well thought out and really intelligent post!

 

[Green'n'Clean]

Keep this bumped, it's a great article and it deserves to be read by all newcomers.

 

[-Linko-]

Oh My God! This is such a well thought out and really intelligent post!

Ditto

10intelligentposts

 

[CodeBlack]

Sigh... this reeks of the idea that anyone who criticizes the obsessive tournement players must by definition be a Scrub or, ugh... a noob (possibly the stupidest word in the ... is it the English language? Maybe the Internet should declare Independence from the British and make it's own language)

Honestly, this war between the sides is tiring both mentally and spiritually (and grammatically ).

I think the aggression against such players is not because they play differently, but because they have an annoying tendency to put down anyone who doesn't play their way. Anyone who doesn't Play to Win doesn't understand the game, and is merely a Scrub playing amongst other lowly Scrubs.

It's not an attitude that encourages understanding. As such, much of the tension is not against the differing playstyle, but against the players themselves. It's nothing against tourney players.

After all, the ones who aren't *******s are usually aren't the ones who say much.

As a guy that loves to play for the fight itself, not necessarily to win or lose, I find that the best people to play against are the casuals or the tourney people who have sense, not the Scrubs or, as TVTropes (good side, though it'll trap you for hours) puts it, the "StopHavingFunGuys." In any case, not the two annoying extremes.

Not saying anything against you, after all, I don't know you. You might have sense for all I know. I'm just trying to explain where the lack of understanding.

 

[OmegaXXII]

this by far has to be one of the best and few intelligent topics i've seen on this board so far

 

[danielrofl]

I've got to be honest, I started years ago as a very casual gamer. I played games all the time, more than the usual casual gamer. But I never played online or took part in any competition. Then for a while after I had gotten into more online console FPSs, I changed quite a bit and I played to win each match. Melee was one of those games that I played quite casually.
Nowadays, its a bit different. Though I cant say which I enjoy more. To be perfectly honest it was still fun not being able to get any headshots on the first halo. Im completely fine with not being talented at a game, as long as I have fun.
Not that im not good at games, I am really good at most now. Because I spend all my time on them ;P

 

[Crizthakidd]

there was already a thread like this! umm i bet its still on the front page too. T__T

 

[Seison]

Sigh... this reeks of the idea that anyone who criticizes the obsessive tournement players must by definition be a Scrub or, ugh... a noob (possibly the stupidest word in the ... is it the English language? Maybe the Internet should declare Independence from the British and make it's own language)

Honestly, this war between the sides is tiring both mentally and spiritually (and grammatically ).

I think the aggression against such players is not because they play differently, but because they have an annoying tendency to put down anyone who doesn't play their way. Anyone who doesn't Play to Win doesn't understand the game, and is merely a Scrub playing amongst other lowly Scrubs.

It's not an attitude that encourages understanding. As such, much of the tension is not against the differing playstyle, but against the players themselves. It's nothing against tourney players.

After all, the ones who aren't *******s are usually aren't the ones who say much.

As a guy that loves to play for the fight itself, not necessarily to win or lose, I find that the best people to play against are the casuals or the tourney people who have sense, not the Scrubs or, as TVTropes (good side, though it'll trap you for hours) puts it, the "StopHavingFunGuys." In any case, not the two annoying extremes.

Not saying anything against you, after all, I don't know you. You might have sense for all I know. I'm just trying to explain where the lack of understanding.

I appreciate what you're saying, and I hope you'll take my word for it that I am in fact one of those people you refer to as having a sense. The main thing that I wanted to accomplish by getting people to read this (or portions of this) book was not to prove that people who "play to win" are better people in any subjective sense than casuals, but rather to reiterate and emphasize the idea that in a competitive context it is the people who play to win who are going to come out on top.

I'm not going to try and explain the rhyme and reason behind everything David Sirlin says, because he does a much better job of it than I ever could. In the section on scrubs (side note: the word scrub isn't always accompanied by it's well known negative connotation) Sirlin points out that even WITHIN the competitive community, there are those people who think they are playing to win, but who are in fact actually hindering their chances by limiting their own potential.

Also, I'm not trying to start a Casuals vs. Competitive debate here either, because Sirlin's book covers a much wider range of subjects than how to separate scrubs from serious players . Even though it doesn't mention smash specifically, I found it to be an extremely insightful, not to mention useful guide to taking your competitive attitude and philosophy to the next level. The section about "Yomi" will really make you think about what you think about while playing It also offers some very rational opinions on ban criteria in competitive gaming. Smash is the only game that I play competitively, so I learned a lot about the metagames of other types of games as well.

I'm rambling now though so I'll shut up.

 

[CodeBlack]

I appreciate what you're saying, and I hope you'll take my word for it that I am in fact one of those people you refer to as having a sense. The main thing that I wanted to accomplish by getting people to read this (or portions of this) book was not to prove that people who "play to win" are better people in any subjective sense than casuals, but rather to reiterate and emphasize the idea that in a competitive context it is the people who play to win who are going to come out on top.

I'm not going to try and explain the rhyme and reason behind everything David Sirlin says, because he does a much better job of it than I ever could. In the section on scrubs (side note: the word scrub isn't always accompanied by it's well known negative connotation) Sirlin points out that even WITHIN the competitive community, there are those people who think they are playing to win, but who are in fact actually hindering their chances by limiting their own potential.

Also, I'm not trying to start a Casuals vs. Competitive debate here either, because Sirlin's book covers a much wider range of subjects than how to separate scrubs from serious players . Even though it doesn't mention smash specifically, I found it to be an extremely insightful, not to mention useful guide to taking your competitive attitude and philosophy to the next level. The section about "Yomi" will really make you think about what you think about while playing It also offers some very rational opinions on ban criteria in competitive gaming. Smash is the only game that I play competitively, so I learned a lot about the metagames of other types of games as well.

I'm rambling now though so I'll shut up.

I'd tip my hat to ya, but I haven't got a hat (don't you just love that old cartoon?).

In any case, I, as well, get you're saying, especially what you say about how there's a difference between those who play to win and those who restrict themselves and others.

It's all relative, really. The full truth comes out when you see everyone's viewpoints, and look at the full picture.

Maybe one day the whole Casual vs Pro flamewars will die down. I doubt it, but we can at least hope and do what we can, right?