Things we want for Zelda

[JosePollo]

EDIT: I altered some of the changes in my original post to make the frame data a bit more reasonable.

Yes, I probably did go slightly overboard with a few of my changes to her frame data, but after 3 games in a row of Zelda being godawful, I wouldn't mind her getting a chance to shine at the top.

However, I think most of you are underestimating just how many glaring problems Zelda has. She is best described as a glass cannon, but even that isn't entirely accurate since she struggles to land hits, she doesn't have many deadly combos, and she relies heavily on small sweetspots for most of her KO power. Defensively, her projectiles are really bad at camping and keeping the opponent at a distance. Offensively, her lack of mobility and generally average range mean that she cannot approach.

Allowing her to charge the Phantom and reducing the landing lag on her Fair/Bair (the most common changes being suggested in this thread) would certainly be a good start, but it is nowhere near enough if you actually want to make her a great character. She realistically needs buffs to her entire kit if you want her to be worthy of high/top tier placement.

Dair sour spot damage 7.0%, 20 BKB/90 KBG. That's busted as hell, especially with how many active frames and how big those hitboxes are. I love it. You can already gimp fairly early with 4.0%, 0 BKB/90 KBG, imagine now that the hitbox actually has good damage and base knockback. Also, increasing the damage for the final hit of nair will make her stop comboing earlier if you don't also make the angle steeper. If you want more damage output, increase the damage of the looping hits, not the launcher.

 

[Deleted member]

Points taken and data adjusted.

If anybody has any more suggestions for changes to my original post, I'd love to hear them. Remember my intent is to make Zelda a high/top tier character with solid moves all around. I believe if we're going to bother discussing hypothetical buffs that probably won't happen we might as well take it all the way and make her as good as possible (without breaking her, of course.)

 

[JosePollo]

Points taken and data adjusted.

If anybody has any more suggestions for changes to my original post, I'd love to hear them. Remember my intent is to make Zelda a high/top tier character with solid moves all around because if we're going to bother discussing hypothetical buffs that probably won't happen we might as well take it all the way and make her as good as possible (without breaking her, of course.)

I already mentioned a lot off small tweaks/fixes to her frame data in my first post and gave her some sizable buffs, as well (namely her aerials and throws). You should look it over for some ideas.

 

[Deleted member]

Ah sorry, I had missed that part of your post before. You had a lot of really great suggestions, especially with the changes to her throws. I added a lot of ideas from your post to mine just to condense them together into one convenient list.

 

[Amiracle]

I wish she was faster. I want Dins fire to be complete remade or something new altogether. I would also like more range on the phantom so that we could maybe use it as a projectile. I also hate it when I dair someone offstage and I don't get the sweetspof so they live. I would make dair sour a bit more powerful.

Finally, I wish her neutral B could have more of an aerial game. Reduced lag and make it where we can short hop fastfall crystal into opponents as an approach.

Also her customs suck

 

[Gemzelda_ss]

OMG ok I've got a ton of buffs that i think she needs to be viable
No ftilt blindspot
jab and utilt can hit crouching kirby
jab should do more damage atleast %14 since it isn't a multi jab nor does it kill and can only true combo into dash attack at low percents
fair and bair auto cancel (this is what i want the most)
POCKET KNIGHT
first hit of up b ALWAYS sends opponent up no matter their d i
dtilt true combos
uthrow into up b true combos at certain percents (probably the most unrealistic of the buffs)
first hit of up b has the same hotbox as the second hit
and finally..... #SideBNoFreeFall

oh and for nayrus love to have super invincibility throughout the whole move and to be less lag and have a wider attack range so it can cover rolls

 

[BJN39]

Gemzelda_ss in the future, please use the edit button at the bottom of your post to add more comments/thoughts if no one else has posted since then, as double posting is against furom rules.

 

[Gemzelda_ss]

Gemzelda_ss in the future, please use the edit button at the bottom of your post to add more comments/thoughts if no one else has posted since then, as double posting is against furom rules.

oh ok! my b

 

[Brinzy]

Yes, I have thought a lot about this. Yes, I do honestly believe Zelda is in need of this many buffs in order to be a decent, viable character. Credit also goes to JosePollo for many of the ideas.

The sad part is that all of these changes would still make her lower mid tier at best, because she's just fundamentally poorly designed.

I think taking the suggestions for all your A abilities and Phantom while subbing in Project M's B abilities would actually push her to high tier. The reason is because

- Nayru's actually reliably beats out attacks thanks to the overlap of the last intangibility frame and first hitbox
- Din's forces approaches and covers many options quickly, shoring up two of Zelda's biggest flaws
- Farore's can be cut short, which significantly helps approaches, another one of Zelda's huge weaknesses

Having a way to approach and to force approaches - while lagging significantly less - would make her quite strong. I think that Zelda just isn't fully designed as a standalone character yet, because she's sorely lacking in good game design.

 

[theburningstars]

At this point I would honestly cry of happiness if she got even just a bit of lag reduction on her aerials and quicker start-ups on tilts on this next patch, considering she got literally nothing last patch.
BF mains Ganon, and even the slight frame adjustment to Ganon made his play more of a ***** to deal with than before.

But if we're talking about what I REALLLLLLY want:

• Jab and dtilt startup increase. Self-explanatory. Jabs should be some of my fastest moves, especially when jab on Zelda is a "**** you get away from me" move. I'd like to actually be able to get them away from me without them stringing another combo on my sweet ass.
• Ideally, some viable OOS options would be nice. Sure I can Farore my way out, but the end lag on that is so great that it doesn't even matter much of the time. Can you OOS Nayru's Love? If not I want that. Let me get out of my shield into a shield that can get you to **** OFF AWAY FROM ME NOW.
• Faster Nayru's Love. If I reflect a projectile, I don't want to be stuck in lag so long that certain other characters can just fire another one off that actually does hit me with no punishment.
• It's also ridiculous that her grabs are some of the worst (frames) in the game, even including tethers iirc. (i'm looking at you, lucas, you buffed big headed baby)
• I don't mind the freefall Din's Fire that much in singles. It's teams where it screws me over, since my BF is fond of playing Link and that boomerang's windbox has killed me more often than our opponents have. So this is a 50/50 for me. In singles, pointless. Doubles, GOD PLEASE YES LET ME LIVE.

• The size of the sweetspot of her fair and bair don't bother me too much, but yes please, make the sourspot hit less punishable.
• Dair would be nice with less lag, ideally a faster startup, but it's lower on my list of priorities.

• Can we make it so that she actually HAS a fastfall? It's hardly noticeable in her current state, and improving her fall would lead better into chained nairs imo.
• Maybe a dragging effect to her nair like Mewtwo has with his? It would be effective with Zelda imo, since she can go deeper than Mewtwo. This is more wishful thinking and wondering if it would be viable, not a true suggestion.

I saw someone suggest changing Farore's Wind so that it doesn't slide Zelda if used in the air, but honestly I kind of like that effect. If people aren't used to fighting Zelda, they usually end up placing themselves just perfectly in position for an aerial Farore. And let's face it, not many people are used to fighting Zelda. I feel the only risk with her sliding right now, unless the opponent is aware of Zelda, is the risk of accidental SD. In which case, just be more aware of your distances and arena?

Really, overhaul her while keeping the feel the same, if that makes sense.
Except the wave taunt. Wave taunt is good. Wave taunt can stay.

 

[AaronSMASH]

Imagine the movement options, the frame traps, the endless possibilities if din's fire didn't put you into helpless.

Now I want you to think about the fact that it is never going to happen. That there is absolutely no chance Sakurai gives us this. Feel the nerdrage build within you. Let the butthurt flow, knowing that Sakurai knows exactly how perfect a change this would be, but wont make it happen.

He enjoys it. Watching us squirm. Reading our angry posts. He's at his computer right now stroking his dong to this thread and using his tears of laughter as lube. It's tripping all over again. It's "Samus is the best character" again. It's Brawl MK again. It's leaving Sheik alone even though she has an obvious and substantial advantage over the rest of the cast.

He loves it. It's what he lives for. Almost making a perfect game and deliberately keeping it just out of reach to **** with us.

 

[evmaxy54]

^Ow the edge

 

[gir-sage]

Instead of discussing what we want, we should discuss what we can do with her now and try to develop her meta

 

[theburningstars]

Instead of discussing what we want, we should discuss what we can do with her now and try to develop her meta

And threads for that exist, as well as Zelda guides. This is just a fun little thread so people can see what others' would do if they could. I think it's fun.

Trust me, all of us here play Zelda frequently and strive to use her as best we can. A single thread fantasizing about buffs doesn't mean our play is stagnating.

 

[Princess Toady]

Geez, it's been a while since I've last posted here...

Things we want for Zelda : a lot.
Things we will get : Middle finger.