Things we want for Zelda

[TheRamosOnline]

Dins Fire to not put Zelda into free fall.
Farore's Wind to not kill Zelda on certain stages (like Bridge of Eldin).
OoT, SS and Hyrule Warrior costumes for Zelda.
Toon Zelda.

Anything else we want?

 

[Darktundra]

Dins Fire to not put Zelda into free fall.
Farore's Wind to not kill Zelda on certain stages (like Bridge of Eldin).
OoT, SS and Hyrule Warrior costumes for Zelda.
Toon Zelda.

Anything else we want?

Thank you for this thread, complaining about Zelda's weaknesses seems to be my strong point. I'll be back soon; studying frame data of all characters frame data for a balanced changes.
Top 5 moves that need improvements:
Down throw
Back throw
Dash Attack
Up-Air
Nayru's Love

 

[Valamway]

Top 5 moves that need improvements:

1. Din's Fire
2. Din's Fire
   
3. Din's Fire
   
4. Fair/Bair (Landing Lag)
5. Din's Fire

 

[TheRamosOnline]

Down throw
Back throw
Dash Attack
Up-Air
Nayru's Love

What would you change about Down Throw? It's damage? I'm not a tour-level player, but I personally feel her Down Throw is decent, as long as you read the DI, you can almost always follow up with a nair at low percents or into an Uair at kill percents.
Same goes with Up-Air, what would you change about it.
You've got me curious and the suspense is killing me.

I got a few more things;
Sour-spot on fair, bair and dair should linger a bit more.
Din's Fire to not put Zelda into free fall.
Less landing lag.
Din's Fire to not put Zelda into free fall.
Invincibility frames on Farore's Wind on the last few frames of the disappearance.
Din's Fire to not put Zelda into free fall.
The ability to move freely quicker after using Farore's Wind (how many times have you SD'd cus you overshot the ledge and couldn't move within ledge snapping distance because of this?)
Din's Fire to not put Zelda into free fall.

 

[Valamway]

I'm honestly fine with Din's putting you into freefall if they really cut the endlag down as well as increasing your movement range following an upB.
Din's Flare and Farore's Windfall show that that would be possible and even simple to code in, except that those Custom moves also have tradeoffs...
And are gross Customs. Ew. Those are bad now again.

It's clear that the devs don't intend Zelda to be a viable 1v1 character, because they've shown they understand what it takes to be viable with the patches so far with other characters.
They're balancing her for casual multiplayer or maybe for single player modes, or maybe even for doubles.
Realistically, I can't see them actually fixing Zelda for 1v1 at this point.
They've had so many chances already, and at least they fixed Phantom quite a bit.
I really hope I'm proven wrong though.

 

[Darktundra]

What would you change about Down Throw? It's damage? I'm not a tour-level player, but I personally feel her Down Throw is decent, as long as you read the DI, you can almost always follow up with a nair at low percents or into an Uair at kill percents.
Same goes with Up-Air, what would you change about it.
You've got me curious and the suspense is killing me.

I got a few more things;
Sour-spot on fair, bair and dair should linger a bit more.
Din's Fire to not put Zelda into free fall.
Less landing lag.
Din's Fire to not put Zelda into free fall.
Invincibility frames on Farore's Wind on the last few frames of the disappearance.
Din's Fire to not put Zelda into free fall.
The ability to move freely quicker after using Farore's Wind (how many times have you SD'd cus you overshot the ledge and couldn't move within ledge snapping distance because of this?)
Din's Fire to not put Zelda into free fall.

Down throw requires to much precision to follow up with other moves and has a 40% combo window. I would buff its ability to allow follow ups.

 

[Kaytenay]

I would love a bigger hitbox on fair and Bair making it go all the way to the tip.
Less end lag on farores.
Forward smash kill earlier
Phantom do more knockback and damage
More invincibility on nayrus
More aerial and ground agility
More hirsute on throw and less end lag

Personally i would not want a toon zelda because it would make the small zelda community even smaller due to some zelda mains switching to toon zelda

 

[Rebel13]

Zelda does not need much really; you guys are over-exaggerating her flaws. Down throw is amazing, it leads into guaranteed combos and followups at most percents, something that not all characters have. Her biggest issue imo is that while in the air, she only has Nair. Fair/bair are super punishable ON HITTING the sourspot.

More damage and hitstun aded to fair/bair sourspot, along with reduced landing land, would give Zelda a more threatening tomahawk grab game and a better approach in general. And dins could be better somehow too. Those are the only changes I want.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Zelda does not need much really; you guys are over-exaggerating her flaws. Down throw is amazing, it leads into guaranteed combos and followups at most percents, something that not all characters have. Her biggest issue imo is that while in the air, she only has Nair. Fair/bair are super punishable ON HITTING the sourspot.

More damage and hitstun aded to fair/bair sourspot, along with reduced landing land, would give Zelda a more threatening tomahawk grab game and a better approach in general. And dins could be better somehow too. Those are the only changes I want.

Your totally right
I'm confused why having dins not put you in freefall would even help? I have accidentally killed myself cause of it, but let's get real, will it really help the move?
I think her DownB could use even less end lag and Nair less landing lag.
And Dins needs a reasonable buff that they may actually do, maybe increased sweetspot Size, less lag or possibly let it move faster?
I think a decent amount of her moves are good as they are, some not so much.

 

[Trieste SP]

I want a way to hold the charge of the Phantom. Anything else is extra.

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

My dreams consist of:

• Better sweetspot visuals on Bair/Fair
• More hitstun or better frame data on Nair
• More knockback on sourspot Bair/Fair
• Din's Fire getting any buff it can
• Phantom having less startup on no charge, less end lag, more HP, possible storage
• Less end lag on Bair/Fair
• Dthrow being a better combo throw
• Bthrow having more knockback
• Ftilt not whiffing just because it can
• Ftilt having better frame data
• No free fall after Din's
• Cancel-able Farore's hitbox for less lag

Sorry if that seems like a tad much, but when compared to some of the things the top tiers have, this is pretty reasonable.

 

[Violenceman]

• Being able to hold the charge of Phantom would be a huge boon, especially if you could charge-cancel as well.
  
• Speaking of which, being able to shield/dodge out of Din's Fire would be nice. Cancel the rest of the animation and let the flame go out to the full length before exploding.
  
• Less ending lag on Phantom. I have a dream of one day sending out a Phantom, having it reflected back at me, and then using Nayru to send it right back.

 

[TheRamosOnline]

Your totally right
I'm confused why having dins not put you in freefall would even help? I have accidentally killed myself cause of it, but let's get real, will it really help the move?

It's not about helping the move, it's about not dying for stupid reasons.

Messed up the Up+B+> input to get back to stage and the game registered Side+B? You lose a stock.
Too close to the edge and you try to Side+B? You lose a stock.
Want to use Side+B while in the air to keep some momentum or to mix up? Can't use your second jump to mix up your landing, can't do anything to have a safer landing.

I don't think it needs a buff, that's asking too much, but not putting us into free fall isn't too much to ask. It makes it completely unusable unless you're on the ground in the middle of the stage.

 

[AncientCode42]

Things I feel Zelda needs.

-Less end-lag on every single move.
-Have all ariels auto-cancel, make them have 5-7 less frames of end-lag
- Fix bair and fair hitbox placement and make the size bigger (with reduced end-lag she can do two out of a SH again)
-Increase the sweet-spot over sour spot chances, while give either more KB on it or have it trip people
-Give Nayru's Love more intangibility and less lag overall (with this change Zelda would be able to break out of combos)
- Give Phantom same charge up time as Strike, reduce end-lag even more (about 7-9 frames)
-Give Phantom more KO power
-Give Farore's Wind less end-lag (we're talking project M levels of canceling the end of the move. XD)
-Faster Grab
-Increase B-throw power by 20-25% (she'd have a competent kill throw )
-Make U-throw combo better sending them at angles her ariels would instantly reach or shorten the throw distant for U-tilt combos
-Fix D-throw into a more favorable combo throw
-Give Nair more stun power, increase the size and
-Give U-Smash and F-Smash even more KO power (Killing 15% earlier)
-Slightly less lag on D-smash
- No whiff F-tilt, make it knock opponents back for Uair or Back kills
-Increase U-air power

Sorry I see no hope for Dins getting any sort of improvement. Regardless I would like no free-fall offstage and a traveling hotbox with a years worth of end and starting lag. I don't see any of these actually happening for Zelda due to the developers just not caring about her 1v1 stance at this point. Still miracles can happen.

 

[Wiimas123]

Zelda's Fair and Bair's sweetspot's hitboxes needs to be bigger. I realize that it's a strong move and it needs to have something to not make it OP but as a beginning Zelda main (and I do pretty good) I haven't mastered the time to hit a to get the sweet spot so it can actually kill at not extremely high percentages. I find it extremely irritable when I am trying to finish my opponent off but without the sweetspot it isn't good enough. That's one of my main issues with her. Also, Din's fire. Nuff said.

 

[MOI-ARI]

Hmmm.

-Dins Fire hitbox needs to be doubled in size. (so like Brawl's hitbox status)

- Bair or Fair or preferably Both, need to auto Cancle off SH.
if we cant have that. Then Increase that hitbox maybe, and increase sourspot fmg to %10

- Uair, less endlag or more KB.
If Rosalina uair kills everything at 3% and is just a halo which makes no sense and a chubby star. Why not an EXPLOSION!?

-Make Ftilt an actual move.
Have its launch angle modified to pop people into uptilt, or at later percents into Uair...or more range or power? SOMETHING.

-Have Phantom come out 4 frames earlier and Instantly take Zelda to the victory screen.


Thats all i want. Is that too much to ask Sakurooroo?

haha i usually hate complaint threads but meh. Nothing 2 do. -_- Plus I honestly think i have modest suggestions. . .

Modest....

 

[loserprance]

I'd definitely not object to changes between fair/bair; make one different from the other? I've had a theory that if Zelda's forward air was more like Captain Falcon's knee in Melee she could use it as a combo tool.

 

[TheRamosOnline]

FOR THE LOVE OF FARORE!
I think FD Boxing Ring ****s with Farore's Wind. I was facing one of those annoying af Falcons who press buttons and spam taunt for no reason and SD'd my last stock because I tried to Up+B to the ledge after gimping the Falcon, only to be sent off far to the left.
I'll test it out some, but it might be a similar story as with the Bridge. :|

This is a problem for all teleport Up+B characters. Why can't they fix this, no other kind of recovery is screwed by those stages.

 

[Valamway]

I think FD Boxing Ring ****s with Farore's Wind.

If you aim at the ledge from the side, but too high to sweetspot while also being too low to land onstage, you will be shunted away on reappear.
Most stages just push you straight up from the ledge, but some will push you up and away.
I think the only way to "fix" this would be to make the ledge sweetspot even bigger, which is totally unnecessary in Magnethands the Game.
Aimable recoveries can all fail, if you aim them wrong.
Well, all recoveries can fail, actually.
So don't aim them wrong.

 

[TheRamosOnline]

Kinda hard to aim them perfectly when we go invisible. :[

 

[Valamway]

To be fair, the move is done being aimed by the time we turn invisible.
You can practice angles with Pikachu or Fox, I suppose, if seeing the exact trail is helpful.
You just gotta know your angles, and where the game forces you into a compass direction.

 

[SanAntonioSmasher]

1. Faster falling, especially fast fall
2. No free fall from dins
3. Chargable phantom or less end lag
4. Change front or back air to a more standard aerial

I don't think improving frame data is the right approach. Characters need to feel distinct.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

Everyone needs to stop complaining about freefall Din's. If we get ANYTHING fixed, I seriously hope the chance isn't wasted on something that shouldn't be a factor at high level play anyway. Occasionally we might get gimped by a windbox when using Din's, but that's the only time that should be happening.

That being said, I think if we do go the route of improving Din's fire, it needs to have an extreme rebalance between startup and endlag. The move's main use is to bait airdodges, which it really can't do in its current state. By increasing startup and decreasing endlag, it would retain balance while filling that role better, leaving more time for a punish. Alternately, it could be made easier to hit with less startup and more endlag, giving the move a different function, more similar to how our lightning kicks work.

 

[BJN39]

That being said, I think if we do go the route of improving Din's fire, it needs to have an extreme rebalance between startup and endlag. The move's main use is to bait airdodges, which it really can't do in its current state. By increasing startup and decreasing endlag, it would retain balance while filling that role better, leaving more time for a punish. Alternately, it could be made easier to hit with less startup and more endlag, giving the move a different function, more similar to how our lightning kicks work.

Or, y'know, Sakurai could just reduce some lag without increasing the other. :^)

But no in reality, the move is bad beyond repair. I'm all for just ignoring it altogether and putting some more into other moves that can become better/useful with buffs.

Dsmash for example: I've seen similar things in patching, why not +4 KBG on all hitboxes, +0.5 units of size (or thereabouts) for all hitboxes, and cut the FAF from 41 to 38. (-3F) I'm honestly gonna say screw perfect numbering and direct reasoning for this, let's just make this move enticing to use over Nayru's and Dtilt.

 

[ZombieBran]

I don't think improving frame data is the right approach. Characters need to feel distinct.

Characters can feel distinct without having horrid frame data and mediocre range
Being awful is not a unique character trait.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, I have thought a lot about this. Yes, I do honestly believe Zelda is in need of this many buffs in order to be a decent, viable character. Credit also goes to JosePollo for many of the ideas.

- Increase Walking Speed. (0.87 > 0.93)
- Increase Running Speed (1.30 > 1.45)
- Increase Air Speed (1.04 > 1.09)
- Increase Fall Speed (1.35 > 1.45)
- Increase Weight (85 > 90)
- Slightly lower short hop (makes it easier to hit shorter characters with her Lightning Kicks out of shield.)

Jab
- Faster start up (active frames 11/13/15 > frames 6/8/10). There's no reason for her to have one of the slowest jabs.
- Less end lag (FAF 24 > FAF 20)
- Larger hitboxes that stretch further down below her arm to catch small/crouching characters.

Forward Tilt
- Faster start up (frame 12 > frame 10)
- Less end lag (FAF 40 > FAF 39)
- Sweet spot has more KBG (88 > 90)
- Intangibility on arm/hand added (frames 8-11), to make it more disjointed.
- Increase the size of the nearest hitbox to eliminate the blind spot.
- New hitbox added to the back part of the arm swing to hit opponents behind her. Hits on frames 12. Same BKB/KBG/damage/angle as the rest of the move's sour spot.

Dash Attack
- Less end lag (FAF 40 > FAF 39)
- Increase sweet spot damage (12% > 13%)
- Increase late hit damage (6% > 8%)
- Angle adjusted to KO earlier (70°/50° > 32°)

Up Tilt
- Active frames extended (frames 7-18 > frames 7-22) to allow her to hit small/crouching opponents as the hitboxes follow her hand's arcing motion down to her side.
- Less end lag (FAF 30 - FAF 29)
- Increased damage (7.2% > 7.5%)
- Intangibility on arm/hand added (frames 5-22) for better disjoint.

Down Tilt
- Increase damage (5.5% > 6%)
- BKB/KBG adjusted (20/120 > 115/10). Can no longer be chained, but the very low KBG puts the opponent in around the same position no matter what the damage, allowing for easier follow-ups.

Forward Smash
- Faster start up (frame 16 > frame 15)
- Less end lag (FAF 50 > FAF 49)
- Intangibility on arms/hands added (frames 13-24) for better disjoint.

Up Smash
- Larger hitboxes that stretch further down Zelda's body and further to each side of her to catch small/crouching characters.
- Intangibility on arm/hand added (frame 7-29) for better disjoint.
- Fewer frames between each hit (frame 9/12/15/18/25/28/31/34 > frame 9/11/13/15/20/23/26/29)
- Increased damage on final 3 looping hits (0.8% > 1%) (total damage 15.4% > 16%)
- Less end lag (FAF 64 > FAF 57)

Down Smash
- Slightly larger hitboxes
- More KBG on both hits (86/96 > 90/100)
- Less end lag (FAF 41 > FAF 37)

Standing Grab
- Grab box size increased (3.8 > 4.0)
- Faster start up (frame 10 > frame 8)
- Less end lag (FAF 38 > FAF 36)

Dash Grab
- Faster start up (frame 11 > frame 10)
- Less end lag (FAF 47 > FAF 46)

Forward Throw
- Reduced damaged (12% > 10%)
- Angle lowered (45° > 10°)
- BKB/KBG adjusted (70/50 > 90/40)
- Now serves to put an opponent in a position to have to recover low when thrown off-stage.

Back Throw
- Increased damage (11% > 12%)
- Altered BKB/KBG (80/60 > 65/100) to KO earlier.

Down Throw (??? not entirely sure on exact angle/KB values)
- Increased damage (6% > 9%)
- Angle adjusted (100° > 275°)
- BKB/KBG decreased (85/55 > 10/5)
- Reduced end lag (FAF 70 > FAF 57)
- The idea is that down throw will not actually launch the opponent anywhere, but will put them in a tech chase situation. If not tech'd, it can be followed-up on with a down tilt, down smash, or Farore's Wind.

Up Throw
- Damage decreased (11% > 9%)
- Angle raised (88° > 95°)
- BKB/KBG adjusted (50/60 > 25/130)
- Less end lag (FAF 50 > FAF 40)
- Now able to combo at low percents while being able to kill at higher percents.

Neutral Air
- Larger hitboxes for more horizontal range at her hands and more vertical range stretching further down her body.
- Less end lag in air (FAF 51 > FAF 43)
- Less landing lag (19 frames > 16 frames)
- Final 2 looping hits damage increased (2% > 2.5%) (total damage 11% > 12%)
- Back hits deal the same damage as the front hits (total damage 7% > 12%)
- Autocancel window increased (frames 1-3 > frames 1-5)

Forward Air
- Less end lag in the air (FAF 53 > FAF 48)
- Less landing lag (23 frames > 16 frames)
- Sweet spot has a larger hit box (1.9 > 2.5)
- Sweet spot damage decreased (20% > 18%)
- Sour spot/late damage 4% > 6%
- Sour spot/late increased BKB (5 > 20) to make it less punishable on hit

Back Air
- Same changes as Forward Air

Up Air
- Faster start up and two more active frames (frames 14-16 > frames 12-16)
- Early hit (frames 12-13) is now a sweet spot. KBG increased (90 > 93)
- Late hit (frames 15-16) is now a sour spot. Larger hit box (7.0 > 9.0). Decreased damage (15% > 12%) and KBG (90 > 75).
- New small hitbox added to her hand/upper body to allow the move to hit certain grounded characters in a short hop.
- Less end lag in the air (FAF 55 > FAF 52)
- Less landing lag (19 frames > 18 frames)

Down Air
- Faster start up (frame 14 > frame 12)
- Less end lag in the air (FAF 45 > FAF 44)
- Less landing lag (18 frames > 16 frames)
- Sweet spot has a slightly larger hit box
- Sweet spot increased BKB/KBG (30/65 > 35/70)
- Sour spot/late damage 5% > 6%
- Sour spot/late increased BKB (5 > 10)

Nayru's Love
- Larger hitboxes for increased horizontal range
- Faster start up (frame 13 > frame 12)
- Intangibility starts sooner and lasts one extra frame (frames 5-12 > frames 3-11)
- Less end lag (FAF 60 > FAF 50)

Din's Fire
- Fireball has an active hitbox while Zelda controls it. Deals 3% damage and hitstun but no KB.
- No longer causes Zelda to become helpless in the air.
- Noticeably reduce the end lag.
- Noticeably increase the speed at which the fireball accelerates.
- Slightly increase the maximum distance the fireball can travel.
- Noticeably increase the maneuverability of the fireball.
- Noticeably increase the range of the explosion's sour spot.
- Slightly increase the size of the explosion's sweet spot
- Sour spot's hitbox is active for 1-2 more frames to better catch poorly timed dodges and act as a better edge guarding tool.
- Sweet spot's damage at max distance increased (15% > 17%) (slightly increased damage at all other distances as well)
- Sour spot's damage at max distance inreased (7% > 10%) (slightly increased damage at all other distances as well)

Phantom Slash
- Charge can be stored
- Slightly reduce the end lag
- Uncharged Phantom deals more damage (6% > 10%)
- Mid-charge Phantom deals more damage (14% > 15%)
- Phantom travels slightly further at all charge levels.
- Increase the Phantom's health (13% > 20%)
- Opponent's attacks can no longer hit Zelda through the Phantom.
- Phantom remains on the stage for 1 second longer to act as a better shield.

Farore's Wind
- Zelda can drift left/right immediately after reappearing in the air.
- Starting in the air and aiming toward the ground will not cause Zelda to slide along the ground.
- In exchange for all of the other buffs, I'd make this move KO 10% later than it currently does.

Let's go game developers, make it happen!

 

[ZombieBran]

I want basically the above except without the FW nerf.
I'm a greedy gorl but I feel like there are lots of ridiculously early KO moves littered among the cast already, Zelda can keep hers that is losing relevance anyway.

It's pretty sad, we'll never get those buffs. Not even in a fan mod. Because as PM showed, any instance of a decent Zelda is met with salt from people who can't handle different playstyles.

 

[Xys]

I want a Hilda costume.

 

[Lelouch Vi Brittania]

Din's fire to not make her go into free fall should be the number one thing. I'm surprised this hasn't been fixed.

Farore's wind to snap to the edge when used in a way that she might go over it. As of now, she's goes right over it to her death.

 

[Wolfric]

1. Fair/Bair (Landing Lag)
2. Fair/Bair (Landing Lag)
   
3. Fair/Bair (Landing Lag)
   
4. Din's Fire
5. Fair/Bair (Landing Lag)

FTFY.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

Up Tilt
- Less end lag (FAF 30 - FAF 20)
- Damage 7.2% > 7.5%
- Larger hitbox to make it easier to hit shorter characters at her sides.
- Tweak BKB/KBG/angle (not sure about specific values) for more reliable aerial follow ups at low-mid percents, specifically Nair and Uair.

Neutral Air
- Larger hitboxes for more horizontal range at her hands and more vertical range extending further down her body.
- Less end lag in air (FAF 51 > FAF 35)
- Less landing lag (19 frames > 11 frames)
- Final hit damage on front hit 3% > 4% (total damage 11% > 12%)
- Back hits deal the same damage as the front hits (total damage 7% > 12%)

Forward Air
- Less end lag in the air (FAF 53 > FAF 38)
- Less landing lag (23 frames > 15 frames)
- Sweet spot has a slightly larger hitbox
- Sour spot/late damage 4% > 7%
- Sour spot/late increased BKB/KBG (5/80 > 25/90) to make it less punishable on hit

Let's go game developers, make it happen!

Holy hell, each of these three alone would skyrocket any character to S tier, barely even considering the rest of their moveset. The rest are pretty wild, but let's break these down...

Utilt would become THE safest move in the game. No question. FAF of 20 makes it faster than any of Zelda's other moves and the fresh damage increase gives more hitstun and time for followups. Not sure what adjustments to angle would need to be made... But the move would now unquestionably combo not just into nair and uair with the above changes, but also Usmash, fair/bair, and possibly even dair, making for Melee Falco-esque tower combos. This isn't even mentioning the fact that the larger hitbox and decreased endlag would make it an even better antiair, beating most attacks and giving time ti react to an AIRDODGE. Holy heck.

Neutral air is self explanatory. It combos into itself better, heavy characters can basically be carried across the stage like Sheik's Fair, and worst of all, it'll combo even easier on all characters into a Lightning Kick, which **will kill** at the edge after a mere dthrow and 3 or 4 nairs. It's bad enough that sheik gets to bouncing fish out of her fair chains if she reads the opponent right - this would be that on steroids.

Lastly, that fair... Easier to land, no punishment to sourspot (and quite a lot of incentive, given that knockback and damage boost...) and, if hitting an opponent's shield from a fastfall, you can achieve a mere -2 on shields. Think about that. A potent kill move, that is effectively safe on shield. No character can grab you if you try to lightning kick, and only a few can attempt a grab, on an attack you can just spam. Oh, and for more icing on the cake, it'll either autocancel out of a shff, or leave enough time to input another move that will autocancel. And you want to make the same changes to Bair too?

I would LOVE if Zelda got buffs these extreme

 

[Valamway]

I thought the same thing.
Pick any 5 individual changes from that whole list and Zelda would be mid tier, take them all and she'd be the best in the game.
Like, those are extreme.

 

[Wolfric]

Forward Air
- Less end lag in the air (FAF 53 > FAF 38)
- Less landing lag (23 frames > 15 frames)
- Sweet spot has a slightly larger hitbox
- Sour spot/late damage 4% > 7%
- Sour spot/late increased BKB/KBG (5/80 > 25/90) to make it less punishable on hit

Back Air
- Same changes as Forward Air

If only this would happen... It would be nice to finally see Zelda around the middle in a future Tier List.

 

[JosePollo]

Yes, I have thought a lot about this. Yes, I do honestly believe Zelda is in need of this many buffs in order to be a decent, viable character. She needs A LOT of help, and I think that even with these numerous changes she still wouldn't be a top tier character (possibly a high tier though...maybe...for once.)

- Faster Walking Speed. (0.87 > 0.93)
- Faster Running Speed (1.30 > 1.45)
- Faster Air Speed (1.04 > 1.10)
- Faster Fall Speed (1.35 > 1.45)
- Weight 85 > 90
- Slightly lower short hop (makes it easier to hit shorter characters with her Lightning Kicks out of shield.)

Jab
- Faster start up (frame 11 > frame 5). There is no reason for her jab to be one of the slowest in the game.
- Larger hitboxes that increase vertical range below her arm and prevent characters from crouching under the move.

Forward Tilt
- Faster start up (frame 12 > frame 10)
- Less end lag (FAF 40 > FAF 30)
- More KBG at sweet spot (88 > 90)
- Slightly more horizontal range
- Increase the size of the nearest hitbox to eliminate the blind spot.

Dash Attack
- Less end lag (FAF 40 > FAF 37)
- Sweet spot damage 12% > 13%
- Sour spot early hit damage 9% > 10%
- Late hit damage 6% > 7%

Up Tilt
- Less end lag (FAF 30 - FAF 20)
- Damage 7.2% > 7.5%
- Larger hitbox to make it easier to hit shorter characters at her sides.
- Tweak BKB/KBG/angle (not sure about specific values) for more reliable aerial follow ups at low-mid percents, specifically Nair and Uair.

Down Tilt
- Damage 5.5% - 6.5%
- Less KBG to allow follow ups to continue to higher percents
- Give it magical GFX/SFX like the rest of her moveset because why the hell not?

Forward Smash
- Faster start up (frame 16 > frame 14)
- Less end lag (FAF 50 > FAF 46)

Up Smash
- Larger hitboxes for more vertical range above Zelda and noticeably more horizontal range to both sides of her.
- Fewer frames between the multi-hits (frame 9/12/15/18/25/28/31 > frame 9/11/13/15/19/21/23)
- Less end lag (FAF 64 > FAF 48)

Down Smash
- Slightly larger hitboxes
- More KBG (86/96 > 92/100)
- Less end lag (FAF 41 > FAF 31)
- Give it magical GFX/SFX like the rest of her moveset because why the hell not?

Standing Grab
- Faster start up (frame 10 > frame 7)
- Less end lag (FAF 38 > FAF 30)

Dash Grab
- Faster start up (frame 11 > frame 9)
- Less end lag (FAF 47 > FAF 42)

Forward Throw
- More KBG (50 > 60)

Back Throw
- More KBG (60 > 67)

Down Throw
- Damage 6% > 8%
- Tweak BKB/KBG/angle (not sure about specific values) for more reliable aerial follow ups, specifically Uair

Neutral Air
- Larger hitboxes for more horizontal range at her hands and more vertical range extending further down her body.
- Less end lag in air (FAF 51 > FAF 35)
- Less landing lag (19 frames > 11 frames)
- Final hit damage on front hit 3% > 4% (total damage 11% > 12%)
- Back hits deal the same damage as the front hits (total damage 7% > 12%)

Forward Air
- Less end lag in the air (FAF 53 > FAF 38)
- Less landing lag (23 frames > 15 frames)
- Sweet spot has a slightly larger hitbox
- Sour spot/late damage 4% > 7%
- Sour spot/late increased BKB/KBG (5/80 > 25/90) to make it less punishable on hit

Back Air
- Same changes as Forward Air

Up Air
- Faster start up and two more active frames (frames 14-16 > frames 12-16)
- Less end lag in the air (FAF 55 > FAF 43)
- Less landing lag (19 frames > 16 frames)

Down Air
- Faster start up (frame 14 > frame 12)
- Less end lag in the air (FAF 45 > FAF 38)
- Less landing lag (18 frames > 15 frames)
- Sweet spot increased BKB/KBG (30/65 > 50/70)
- Sour spot/late damage 5% > 7%
- Sour spot/late increased BKB/KBG (5/90 > 25/90)

Nayru's Love
- Larger hitboxes for increased horizontal range
- Faster start up (frame 13 > frame 11)
- Intangibility starts sooner and lasts two extra frames (frames 5-12 > frames 3-12)
- Significantly less end lag (FAF 60 > FAF 43)

Din's Fire
- Fireball has an active hitbox while Zelda controls it. Deals 3% damage and hitstun but no KB.
- No longer causes Zelda to become helpless in the air.
- Noticeably reduce the end lag.
- Noticeably increase the speed at which the fireball accelerates.
- Slightly increase the maximum distance the fireball can travel.
- Noticeably increase the maneuverability of the fireball.
- Noticeably increase the range of the explosion's sour spot.
- Slightly increase the total number of frames the sour spot's hitbox is active to better catch poorly timed air dodges
- Sweet spot's damage at max distance 15% > 17% (slightly increased damage at all other distances as well)
- Sour spot's damage at max distance 7% > 10% (slightly increased damage at all other distances as well)

Phantom Slash
- Charge can be stored
- Reduce the end lag further
- Phantom travels slightly further at all charge levels.
- Uncharged Phantom deals more damage (6% > 11%)
- Increase the Phantom's health (13% > 23%)
- Opponent's attacks can no longer hit Zelda through the Phantom.
- Phantom remains on the stage for 2 seconds longer to act as a better shield.

Farore's Wind
- Zelda can drift left/right immediately after reappering in the air.
- Starting it in the air and aiming it toward the ground will not cause Zelda to slide along the ground.
- In exchange for all of the other buffs I'd give Zelda, I'd make this move KO about 10% later than it currently does.

Let's go game developers, make it happen!

This is REALLY good. I did something similar, but with less extreme changes in some areas and without changing her character stats (since I based my changes around her current stats).

Spoiler: A-tier Zelda frame data

Spoiler: Jab (jargon)

-Attack 11 (jab 1)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 20, 0}

AsynchronousTimer(8.000000)#frame 8
LoopStart(0x2)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=2.500000, Angle=0x169, BKB=0x0, FKB=0x28, KBG=0x64, Size=3.200000, X=0.000000, Y=12.500000, Z=5.500000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.800000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=2.500000, Angle=0x8c, BKB=0x0, FKB=0x28, KBG=0x64, Size=3.200000, X=0.000000, Y=12.500000, Z=9.500000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.800000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x2, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=2.500000, Angle=0x8c, BKB=0x0, FKB=0x1e, KBG=0x64, Size=4.000000, X=0.000000, Y=12.500000, Z=13.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.800000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 9
RemoveAllHitboxes()
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 11
LoopEnd(-0x50)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=3.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x82, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x23, Size=6.000000, X=0.000000, Y=12.500000, Z=13.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.800000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=3.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x82, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x23, Size=3.600000, X=0.000000, Y=12.500000, Z=5.500000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.800000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x2, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=3.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x82, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x23, Size=3.600000, X=0.000000, Y=12.500000, Z=9.500000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.800000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 12
RemoveAllHitboxes()
End()

Start-up reduced, and hitboxes stretched to cover a longer time frame; now hits 8, 11, 14, as opposed to 11, 13, 15, originally. Angle on the final hitboxes changed from 361° to 72°, which puts the opponent at a position more prone to follow-ups. Hitlag on all hits reduced form 1.0 to 0.8, making it slightly safer on shields. FAF moved from 24 to 20. Now a much better poke.

EDIT: I realized that changing the angle from 361° to 72° wouldn't let her follow up into grab at low percents. The change basically made it to where jab was a worse down tilt and there'd be no reason to really ever use it over down tilt, so I reverted the angle on the 3rd set of hitboxes back to 361°. 361° doesn't pop opponents into the air until after 42%, which allows her to dash grab opponents. After 42% you can start doing down tilts to continue comboing.

Spoiler: Dash attack (jargon)

-AttackDash (dash attack)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 40, 0}

AsynchronousTimer(6.000000)#frame 6
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=12.000000, Angle=0x20, BKB=0x55, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x46, Size=2.200000, X=0.000000, Y=10.000000, Z=12.800000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.200000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox4_2988D50F(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=9.000000, Angle=0x20, BKB=0x50, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x32, Size=5.000000, X=0.000000, Y=10.000000, Z=13.800000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3, 0x1, 0xf, 0x0, 10.000000, 7.800000)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 8
Hitbox4_2988D50F(Id=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=6.000000, Angle=0x20, BKB=0x50, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x32, Size=4.800000, X=0.000000, Y=10.000000, Z=13.800000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3, 0x1, 0xf, 0x0, 10.000000, 7.800000)
RemoveHitbox(0x1)
AsynchronousTimer(11.000000)#frame 11
RemoveAllHitboxes()
End()

Angles equalized to 32° from 70° (sweetspot) and 50° (sour spot, and late). Kills earlier due to the much more horizontal launch angle, which can gimp bad recoveries even at early percentages.

Spoiler: Forward tilt (jargon)

-AttackS3 (forward tilt)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 38, 0}

AsynchronousTimer(8.000000)#frame 8
unk_F13BFE8D(0x10, 0x2)
unk_F13BFE8D(0x11, 0x2)
AsynchronousTimer(10.000000)#frame 10
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x11, Damage=13.000000, Angle=0x169, BKB=0x30, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x5a, Size=4.000000, X=3.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x2, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x3, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x11, Damage=10.000000, Angle=0x169, BKB=0x30, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x5a, Size=3.500000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x2, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x3, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x2, Part=0x0, Bone=0x10, Damage=10.000000, Angle=0x169, BKB=0x30, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x5a, Size=3.000000, X=-1.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x2, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x1, Ground/Air=0x3, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 12
unk_CEDC237E(0x0)
RemoveAllHitboxes()
End()

Start-up reduced: now hits 10-11, down from 12-13, originally; cooldown adjusted. Damage on sweet spot increased from 12.0% to 13.0%; knockback values changed from 50 BKB/88 KBG to 48 BKB/90 KBG. Her attacking hand and arm become intagible 8-11, making it a more reliable disjoint.

Spoiler: Up tilt (hitbox data and such)

-AttackHi3 (up tilt)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 30, 0}

AsynchronousTimer(6.000000)#frame 6
unk_F13BFE8D(0x15, 0x2)
unk_F13BFE8D(0x16, 0x2)
AsynchronousTimer(7.000000)#frame 7
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x16, Damage=7.000000, Angle=0x64, BKB=0x2d, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x6e, Size=5.000000, X=4.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x1, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x16, Damage=7.000000, Angle=0x64, BKB=0x2d, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x6e, Size=3.000000, X=1.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x1, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x2, Part=0x0, Bone=0x15, Damage=7.000000, Angle=0x64, BKB=0x2d, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x6e, Size=3.000000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x1, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
AsynchronousTimer(23.000000)#frame 23
unk_CEDC237E(0x0)
RemoveAllHitboxes()
End()

Hitbox active frames extended from 7-18, to 7-22, which now allows her to hit small/crouching opponents as the hitboxes follow her hand's arcing motion down to her side, instead of disappearing at around her shoulders as they do now. Damage lowered from 7.2% to 7.0%. Her attacking hand and arm become intangible 6-22, making it a more reliable disjoint.

Spoiler: Down tilt (jargon)

-AttackLw3 (down tilt)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 24, 0}

AsynchronousTimer(4.000000)#frame 4
Hitbox4_2988D50F(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x9, Damage=4.000000, Angle=0x50, BKB=0x82, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0xc, Size=3.600000, X=6.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x0, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x1, 0x1, 0x3, 0x1, 0x6, -0x40800000, 0.000000, 0.000000)
AsynchronousTimer(11.000000)#frame 11
RemoveAllHitboxes()
End()

Start-up reduced by one frame; cooldown adjusted. Damage decreased from 5.5% to 4.0%; knockback values altered drastically: BKB goes from 20 to 130, KBG goes from 120 to 12. Trip rate removed. Down tilts can no longer be chained, but the very low knockback growth means down tilt puts the opponent in around the same position no matter what the damage, allowing for rather easy follow-ups. Think of PM Roy's down tilt.

Spoiler: Forward smash (confusing things)

-AttackS4
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 50, 0}

AsynchronousTimer(11.000000)#frame 11
?SetBit(0x2100001b)
AsynchronousTimer(12.000000)#frame 12
unk_F13BFE8D(0x10, 0x2)
unk_F13BFE8D(0x11, 0x2)
unk_F13BFE8D(0x15, 0x2)
unk_F13BFE8D(0x16, 0x2)
AsynchronousTimer(16.000000)#frame 16
LoopStart(0x4)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=1.500000, Angle=0x19, KBG=0x64, FKB=0x28, BKB=0x0, Size=4.200000, X=0.000000, Y=9.100000, Z=8.000000, Effect=0x0, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.700000, SDI=0.800000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x2, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=1.500000, Angle=0xa5, KBG=0x64, FKB=0x32, BKB=0x0, Size=4.500000, X=0.000000, Y=9.100000, Z=16.000000, Effect=0x0, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.700000, SDI=0.800000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x2, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 17
RemoveAllHitboxes()
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 18
LoopEnd(-0x37)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=14.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x6e, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x25, Size=5.500000, X=0.000000, Y=9.100000, Z=9.500000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=14.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x6e, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x25, Size=6.000000, X=0.000000, Y=9.100000, Z=16.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 19
unk_CEDC237E(0x0)
RemoveAllHitboxes()
End()

Damage increased from 1.0% to 1.5% for the looping hitboxes, and 13.0% to 14.0% for the final hit (which boosts the kill power); damage output increased from 17% to 20% overall as a result. Hitlag and SDI values reduced from 1.0 to 0.8 during the looping hitboxes to off-set the increase in damage and prevent foes from falling out of the attack. Hands and arms intangible 12-24.

Spoiler: Up smash (jargon)

-AttackHi4 (up smash)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 59, 0}

AsynchronousTimer(4.000000)#frame 4
?SetBit(0x2100001b)
AsynchronousTimer(8.000000)#frame5
unk_F13BFE8D(0x10, 0x2)
unk_F13BFE8D(0x11 0x2)
AsynchronousTimer(9.000000)#frame 9
LoopStart(0x4)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=2.000000, Angle=0x5a, BKB=0x0, FKB=0x28, KBG=0x69, Size=3.500000, X=0.000000, Y=11.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.500000, SDI=0.500000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x3, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=2.000000, Angle=0x16e, BKB=0x0, FKB=0x28, KBG=0x69, Size=4.200000, X=0.000000, Y=18.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.500000, SDI=0.500000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=2.000000, Angle=0xc8, BKB=0x0, FKB=0x28, KBG=0x69, Size=3.500000, X=0.000000, Y=17.000000, Z=-5.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.500000, SDI=0.500000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x2, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=2.000000, Angle=0xc8, BKB=0x0, FKB=0x28, KBG=0x69, Size=3.500000, X=0.000000, Y=17.000000, Z=5.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.500000, SDI=0.500000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 10
RemoveAllHitboxes()
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 12
LoopEnd(-0x69)
AsynchronousTimer(25.000000)#frame 25
LoopStart(0x3)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=1.000000, Angle=0x5a, BKB=0x0, FKB=0x28, KBG=0x64, Size=3.500000, X=0.000000, Y=11.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.800000, SDI=0.500000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x3, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=1.000000, Angle=0x16e, BKB=0x0, FKB=0x28, KBG=0x64, Size=4.200000, X=0.000000, Y=18.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.800000, SDI=0.500000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=1.000000, Angle=0xc8, BKB=0x0, FKB=0x28, KBG=0x64, Size=3.500000, X=0.000000, Y=17.000000, Z=-5.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.800000, SDI=0.500000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x2, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=1.000000, Angle=0xc8, BKB=0x0, FKB=0x28, KBG=0x64, Size=3.500000, X=0.000000, Y=17.000000, Z=5.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.800000, SDI=0.500000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 26
RemoveAllHitboxes()
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 28
LoopEnd(-0x69)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=5.000000, Angle=0x58, KBG=0xd6, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x18, Size=7.000000, X=0.000000, Y=21.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=2.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=5.000000, Angle=0x58, KBG=0xd6, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x18, Size=7.500000, X=0.000000, Y=18.000000, Z=-6.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=2.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x2, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=5.000000, Angle=0x58, KBG=0xd6, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x18, Size=7.500000, X=0.000000, Y=18.000000, Z=6.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=2.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x3, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=5.000000, Angle=0x58, KBG=0xd6, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x18, Size=8.000000, X=0.000000, Y=15.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=2.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 29
RemoveAllHitboxes()
unk_CEDC237E(0x0)
End()

Damage for the 3 hits of the second loop increased from 0.5% to 1.0%; total damage output of 16.0%. Hitlag lowered from 1.0 to 0.8 during the second loop of hitboxes to compensate for the extra damage. Final hit is no longer clankable. Hand and arm intangibility 5-34. FAF moved from 64 to 59.

Spoiler: Down smash (jargon)

-AttackLw4 (down smash)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 39, 0}

AsynchronousTimer(3.000000)#frame 3
?SetBit(0x2100001b)
AsynchronousTimer(6.000000)#frame 6
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=11.000000, Angle=0x14, BKB=0x14, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x56, Size=4.200000, X=0.000000, Y=3.000000, Z=12.500000, Effect=0x0, Trip=0x3e4ccccd, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x1, Ground/Air=0x2, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x6)
Hitbox4_2988D50F(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=11.000000, Angle=0xa, BKB=0x14, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x56, Size=3.000000, X=0.000000, Y=4.300000, Z=10.000000, Effect=0x0, Trip=0x3e4ccccd, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3, 0x1, 0x6, 0x0, 5.000000, 7.000000)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 8
RemoveAllHitboxes()
AsynchronousTimer(14.000000)#frame 14
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=11.000000, Angle=0x14, BKB=0x14, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x60, Size=4.200000, X=0.000000, Y=3.000000, Z=-11.000000, Effect=0x0, Trip=0x3e4ccccd, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x1, Ground/Air=0x2, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x6)ycfgt
Hitbox4_2988D50F(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=11.000000, Angle=0xa, BKB=0x14, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x60, Size=3.000000, X=0.000000, Y=4.300000, Z=-8.000000, Effect=0x0, Trip=0x3e4ccccd, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3, 0x1, 0x6, 0x0, 7.000000, -4.500000)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 16
RemoveAllHitboxes()
End()

Start-up increased to frame 6, up from frame 5. Damage equalized to 11.0% both hits. Launch angle for the inner hitboxes on both hits changed from 361° to 10°, and both hitboxes pulled inward (Z=11.0/-9.0 to Z=10.0/-8.0) and upward (Y=3.0 to Y=4.3). FAF moved from 41 to 39.

Spoiler: Neutral air (stuff)

-AttackAirN (neutral aerial)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 41, 0}

AsynchronousTimer(6.000000)#frame 6
?SetBit(0x2100000d)
LoopStart(0x4)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=2.000000, Angle=0x16e, BKB=0x0, FKB=0x4b, KBG=0x64, Size=4.700000, X=0.000000, Y=11.000000, Z=7.600000, Effect=0x0, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=0.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=2.000000, Angle=0x16e, BKB=0x0, FKB=0x4b, KBG=0x64, Size=4.700000, X=0.000000, Y=12.000000, Z=-6.000000, Effect=0x0, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=0.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 8
RemoveAllHitboxes()
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 10
LoopEnd(-0x37)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=3.000000, Angle=0x3a, BKB=0x28, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x8c, Size=4.000000, X=0.000000, Y=12.000000, Z=-6.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=0.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x1, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=3.000000, Angle=0x3a, BKB=0x28, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x8c, Size=4.000000, X=0.000000, Y=11.000000, Z=7.600000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=0.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x1, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x2, Part=0x0, Bone=0x3, Damage=3.000000, Angle=0x3a, BKB=0x28, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x8c, Size=6.000000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=0.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x1, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x3, Part=0x0, Bone=0x13, Damage=3.000000, Angle=0x3a, BKB=0x28, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x8c, Size=6.000000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=0.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x1, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 12
RemoveAllHitboxes()
AsynchronousTimer(32.000000)#frame 32
?ClearBit(0x2100000d)
End()

Damage for ID=0x1 (back hitbox) of the looping hits increased to 2.0%. Launch angle, base knockback, and knockback growth for final hitboxes equalized to 58°, 40 BKB/140 KBG. Auto-cancels changed from 1-3 and 38>, to 1-5 (can now be mashed out without getting landing lag if the the first hitboxes don't connect) and 32>. FAF moved from 51 to 41 for a wider combo window in the air.

Spoiler: Forward air (data)

-AttackAirF (forward aerial)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 53, 0}

?SetBit(0x2100000d)
AsynchronousTimer(9.000000)#frame 9
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x7, Damage=16.000000, Angle=0x169, BKB=0x18, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x5f, Size=2.500000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.500000, SDI=0.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x3, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 10
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x5, Damage=6.000000, Angle=0x169, BKB=0x14, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=4.000000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x0, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x1, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x6)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x2, Part=0x0, Bone=0x3, Damage=6.000000, Angle=0x169, BKB=0x14, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=4.500000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x0, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x1, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x6)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x3, Part=0x0, Bone=0x7, Damage=6.000000, Angle=0x169, BKB=0x14, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=5.000000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x0, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x1, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x6)
RemoveHitbox(0x0)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 12
RemoveAllHitboxes()
AsynchronousTimer(24.000000)#frame 24
?ClearBit(0x2100000d)
End()

Given the dair treatment: sweet spot hits frame 9 for one frame, then is replaced frame 10 by the weak hitboxes, whose durations are reduced to two frames; now hits 9-11 (frame 9 sweet spot, 10-11 sour spot). Sweet spot damage reduced from 20.0% to 16.0%; hitbox size increased from 1.9 to 2.5. Damage for the late hitboxes increased from 4.0% to 6.0%, BKB increased from 5 to 20; weak hitboxes no longer hit like limp noodles. Early 1-3 auto-cancel removed; late auto-cancel starts frame 24 (almost as soon as she starts to turn). She can now space with SH fairs.

Spoiler: Back air (more jargon)

-AttackAirB (back aerial)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 53, 0}

?SetBit(0x2100000d)
AsynchronousTimer(6.000000)#frame 6
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0xb, Damage=16.000000, Angle=0x169, BKB=0x1c, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x60, Size=2.500000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.500000, SDI=0.000000, Clang=0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x3, 0x10, 0x3, 0x1, 0xf, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x4, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 7
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x9, Damage=6.000000, Angle=0x169, BKB=0x14, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=4.000000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x0, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x1, 0x3, 0x1, 0x6, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x4, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(ID=0x2, Part=0x0, Bone=0x3, Damage=6.000000, Angle=0x169, BKB=0x14, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=4.500000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x0, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x1, 0x3, 0x1, 0x6, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x4, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(ID=0x3, Part=0x0, Bone=0xb, Damage=6.000000, Angle=0x169, BKB=0x14, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=5.000000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x0, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x1, 0x3, 0x1, 0x6, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x4, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
RemoveHitbox(0x0)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 9
RemoveAllHitboxes()
AsynchronousTimer(22.000000)#frame 22
?ClearBit(0x2100000d)
End()

Like with fair, sweet spot hits frame 6 for one frame, then is replaced frame 7 by the weak hitboxes, whose duration is reduced to two frames; now hits 6-8 (frame 6 sweet spot, 7-8 sour spot). Sweet spot damage reduced from 20.0% to 16.0%; hitbox size increased from 1.9 to 2.5. Damage for the late hitboxes increased from 4.0% to 6.0%, BKB increased from 5 to 20. Early 1-3 auto-cancel removed; late auto-cancel starts frame 22 (almost as soon as she starts to retract her leg). Can also be used off of short hops to space.

Spoiler: Up air (jargon)

-AttackAirHi (up aerial)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 55, 0}

AsynchronousTimer(14.000000)#frame 14
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=18.000000, Angle=0x5a, BKB=0x1e, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x64, Size=5.000000, X=0.000000, Y=23.000000, Z=0.500000, Effect=0x5, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0xb, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0xf)
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 15
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=12.000000, Angle=0x3c, BKB=0x1e, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x46, Size=10.000000, X=0.000000, Y=23.000000, Z=0.500000, Effect=0x5, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0xb, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0xf)
RemoveHitbox(0x0)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 17
RemoveAllHitboxes()
AsynchronousTimer(35.000000)#frame 35
?ClearBit(0x2100000d)
End()

Attack is now divided into a sweet and sour spot. Frame 14 is the sweet spot, which has damage increased from 15.0% to 18.0% (from the original hitbox), along with an increase in knockback growth from 90 to 100; Hitbox size decreased from 7.0 to 5.0. Frames 15-16 are the sour spot, which has damage decreased from 15.0% to 12.0% (from the original hitbox), along with a decrease in knockback growth from 90 to 70. Launch angle is changed from 90° to 60°, and the hitbox size increased from 7.0 to 10.0. Early 1-3 auto-cancel removed, but the late auto-cancel now starts frame 35 (almost as soon as she starts to bring her hand down). Can also be short-hop auto-canceled.

Spoiler: Down air (jargon)

-AttackAirLw (down aerial)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 43, 0}

AsynchronousTimer(4.000000)#frame 4
?SetBit(0x2100000d)
AsynchronousTimer(12.000000)#frame 12
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x7, Damage=15.000000, Angle=0x10e, BKB=0x1e, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x46, Size=4.000000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x1a, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x3, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0xf)
AsynchronousTimer(13.000000)#frame 13
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x5, Damage=5.000000, Angle=0x113, BKB=0x5, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x46, Size=6.000000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x0, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x2, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x6)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x7, Damage=5.000000, Angle=0x113, BKB=0x5, FKB=0x0, KBG=0x46, Size=6.000000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x0, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x2, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x6)
AsynchronousTimer(23.000000)#frame 23
RemoveAllHitboxes()
AsynchronousTimer(38.000000)#frame 38
?ClearBit(0x2100000d)
End()

Start-up reduced by 2 frames (now hits frame 12, down from frame 14); all other timings adjusted accordingly. Sweet spot damage decreased from 16.0% to 15.0%; KBG increased from 65 to 70. Late hitboxes both equalized to 5.0%, 5 BKB/70 KBG.

Spoiler: Standing grab (incomprehensible stuff)

-Catch (standing grab)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 40, 0}

AsynchronousTimer(10.000000)#frame 10
unk_7B48FE1C(0x0, 0x0, 0x40800000, 0x0, 0x41100000, 0x40800000, 0x3f, 0x3, 0x0, 0x41100000, 0x41280000)
subRoutine?_FA1BC28A(0x49fa5bdd)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 12
unk_F3A464AC()
?SetBit(0x2100000d)
End()

Grab box size increased from 3.8 to 4.0. FAF moved from 38 to 40.

Spoiler: Dash grab (more incomprehensible things)

-CatchDash (dash grab)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 50, 0}

AsynchronousTimer(10.000000)#frame 10
unk_7B48FE1C(0x0, 0x0, 0x40400000, 0x0, 0x41100000, 0x40800000, 0x3f, 0x3, 0x0, 0x41100000, 0x41580000)
subRoutine?_FA1BC28A(0x49fa5bdd)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 12
unk_F3A464AC()
?SetBit(0x2100000d)
End()

Start-up reduced by 1 frame; FAF moved from 47 to 50.

Spoiler: Pivot grab (incomprehensible jargon)

-CatchTurn (pivot grab)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 45, 0}

AsynchronousTimer(10.000000)#frame 10
unk_7B48FE1C(0x0, 0x0, 0x40800000, 0x0, 0x41100000, 0xc0800000L, 0x3f, 0x3, 0x0, 0x41100000, 0xc17b3333L)
subRoutine?_FA1BC28A(0x49fa5bdd)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 12
unk_F3A464AC()
?SetBit(0x2100000d)
End()

Start-up reduced by 1 frame. Grab box size increased from 3.8 to 4.0.

Spoiler: Pummel (data)

-CatchAttack (pummel)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 0, 0}

AsynchronousTimer(7.000000)#frame 7
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=3.000000, Angle=0x169, BKB=0x0, WKB?=0x1e, KBG=0x64, Size=5.000000, X=0.000000, Y=11.000000, 8.000000, 0x1a, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x10, 0x3, 0x1, 0xf, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 8
RemoveAllHitboxes()
End()

Unchanged.

Spoiler: Forward throw (jargon)

-ThrowF (forward throw)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 60, 0}

GrabHitbox_DF057B20(ID=0x0, 0x0, Damage=8.000000, Angle=0xa, BKB=0x5a, WBK?=0x0, KBG=0x28, 0x0, 0.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x1, 0x1, 0x8)
GrabHitbox_DF057B20(ID=0x1, 0x0, Damage=3.000000, Angle=0x169, BKB=0x28, WBK?=0x0, KBG=0x28, 0x0, 0.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x1, 0x1, 0x8)
AsynchronousTimer(30.000000)#frame 30
unk_D8DF1DCC(0x0, 0x1a, 0x11000005, 0x11000006, 0x11000007)
End()

Damage reduced from 12.0% to 8.0%. Angle lowered from 45° to 10°. 70 BKB/50 KBG changed to 90 BKB/40 KBG. Throw now serves to put an opponent in a position to have to recover low when thrown off-stage. FAF moved from 50 to 60.

Spoiler: Back throw (stuff)

-ThrowB (back throw)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 50, 0}

GrabHitbox_DF057B20(ID=0x0, 0x0, Damage=12.000000, Angle=0x37, BKB=0x41, WBK?=0x0, KBG=0x64, 0x0, 0.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x1, 0x1, 0x8)
GrabHitbox_DF057B20(ID=0x1, 0x0, Damage=3.000000, Angle=0x169, BKB=0x28, WBK?=0x0, KBG=0x64, 0x0, 0.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x1, 0x1, 0x8)
AsynchronousTimer(27.000000)#frame 27
unk_63623560()
unk_D8DF1DCC(0x0, 0x1a, 0x11000005, 0x11000006, 0x11000007)
End()

Damage increased from 11.0% to 12.0%. Angle raised from 45° to 55°. 80 BKB/60 KBG changed to 65 BKB/100 KBG. Now a kill throw when DI'd incorrectly (angle is a DI mix-up for up throw); correct DI is directly perpendicular to the stage.

Spoiler: Up throw (jargon)

-ThrowHi (up throw)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 40, 0}

GrabHitbox_DF057B20(ID=0x0, 0x0, Damage=10.000000, Angle=0x64, BKB=0x14, WBK?=0x0, KBG=0x7d, 0x0, 0.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x1, 0x1, 0x8)
GrabHitbox_DF057B20(ID=0x1, 0x0, Damage=3.000000, Angle=0x169, BKB=0x28, WBK?=0x0, KBG=0x64, 0x0, 0.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x1, 0x1, 0x8)
AsynchronousTimer(30.000000)#frame 30
unk_D8DF1DCC(0x0, 0x1a, 0x11000005, 0x11000006, 0x11000007)
End()

Damage decreased from 11.0% to 10.0%. Angle raised from 88° to 100°. 50 BKB/60 KBG changed to 20 BKB/125 KBG. FAF moved from 50 to 40. Up throw is now able to combo at low percents while being able to kill at higher percents, especially with bad DI (DI'ing in, which is the correct DI for back throw).

Spoiler: Down throw (blah blah)

-ThrowLw (down throw)
params:{0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 57, 0}

GrabHitbox_DF057B20(ID=0x0, 0x0, Damage=2.000000, Angle=0x113, BKB=0xa, WBK?=0x0, KBG=0xa, 0x0, 0.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x1, 0x1, 0x8)
GrabHitbox_DF057B20(ID=0x1, 0x0, Damage=3.000000, Angle=0x169, BKB=0x28, WBK?=0x0, KBG=0x64, 0x0, 0.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x1, 0x1, 0x8)
AsynchronousTimer(25.000000)#frame 25
LoopStart(0x4)
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=1.000000, Angle=0x28, BKB=0x0, WKB?=0x19, KBG=0x64, Size=7.200000, X=0.000000, Y=2.000000, 0.000000, 0x1a, 0x0, 0.500000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3, 0x1, 0xf, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 27
RemoveAllHitboxes()
SynchronousTimer(4.000000)#frame 31
LoopEnd(-0x2f)
AsynchronousTimer(51.000000)#frame 51
unk_D8DF1DCC(0x0, 0x1a, 0x11000005, 0x11000006, 0x11000007)
End()

Angle changed from 100° to 275°. 85 BKB/55 KBG changed to 10 BKB/10 KBG. FAF moved from 70 to 57 (that's SIX frames after the opponent is thrown). Not quite sure if it would work the way I intend it to, but the idea is that down throw will not actually launch the opponent anywhere, but will put them in a tech chase situation a la Fox/Falco down throw in Melee. If not tech'd, it can be followed-up on with something like a down tilt, down smash, Farore's Wind for a kill, or even a dair lock if the player is fast enough.

I didn't touch her specials because I feel like they're fine the way they are (that and understanding the raw frame data involved with those and knowing what to change to get what kind of result is beyond what I'm able to understand). Nayru's Love is a great reflector/get off me move, though a little laggy. Din's Fire is un-redeemable without overhauling the entire thing. Farore's Wind is already a great recovery move (as long as you mind slopes) that can kill from a good read and doubles as a viable OoS option. Phantom Slash is decent for spacing/tanking hits, though laggy. If I'd change anything, it'd be to make Phantom Slash a storable projectile.

 

[evmaxy54]

Things we need for Zelda

Good players LOLOLOLOLOL

 

[Darktundra]

I wish for a balanced zelda, not a character too good that I will be labled a tier wh*re.

 

[Rubiss]

Here are some of the changes I think Zelda should get.

• Din's Fire should not put her into free fall
• Zelda should be able to store the phantom charge (after all Sheik can store needles and she's not even a zoning character, despite beating out several of them)
• Fair and bair need much much less landing lag or the sweetspot should do much more shield knockback
• Downthrow needs to combo better
• Backthrow/forward throw could use more knockback. A kill throw would help a lot

 

[Valamway]

Backthrow could kill a little earlier or downthrow combo a bit better, but I like the idea of having four throws that do completely different things.
Knowing when to pick and choose, when certain things are guaranteed, or when to mix your opponent up.
Uthrow and fthrow have very fast animations, which is neat for mixups, but they're useless as is.

I think forwardthrow should get a damage increase to at least 15; it's fine to have a throw that doesn't kill or combo if it does some good damage.
It's already the highest damage, but 1 extra point doesn't incentivize use.

Upthrow could have less endlag, comboing into utilt/usmash at low percents and following up into aerials at mid.
Maybe even confirming into FW2 at certain ranges with DI chasing.

Really, I'll take any buff that confirms into Grounded FW1 or Aerial FW2.
Bowser has the Koo-Pa/Spin-to-Win/Shell-Shock now.
So if he got a confirm into a deadly upair, maybe we'll actually get something at all useful next patch.
Storable Phantom and non-freefall Din's aren't going to happen though, ever.

 

[Deleted member]

EDIT: I altered some of the changes in my original post to make the frame data a bit more reasonable.

Yes, I probably did go slightly overboard with a few of my changes to her frame data, but after 3 games in a row of Zelda being godawful, I wouldn't mind her getting a chance to shine at the top.

However, I think most of you are underestimating just how many glaring problems Zelda has. She is best described as a glass cannon, but even that isn't entirely accurate since she struggles to land hits, she doesn't have many deadly combos, and she relies heavily on small sweetspots for most of her KO power. Defensively, her projectiles are really bad at camping and keeping the opponent at a distance. Offensively, her lack of mobility and generally average range mean that she cannot approach.

Allowing her to charge the Phantom and reducing the landing lag on her Fair/Bair (the most common changes being suggested in this thread) would certainly be a good start, but it is nowhere near enough if you actually want to make her a great character. She realistically needs buffs to her entire kit if you want her to be worthy of high/top tier placement.

 

[Rubiss]

EDIT: I altered some of the changes in my original post to make the frame data a bit less ridiculous.

Yes, I probably did go slightly overboard with a few of my changes to her frame data, but after 3 games in a row of Zelda being godawful, I wouldn't mind her getting a chance to shine at the top.

However, I think most of you are underestimating just how many glaring problems Zelda has. She is best described as a glass cannon, but even that isn't entirely accurate since she struggles to land hits, she doesn't have many deadly combos, and she relies heavily on small sweetspots for most of her KO power. Defensively, her projectiles are really bad at camping and keeping the opponent at a distance. Offensively, her lack of mobility and generally average range mean that she cannot approach.

Allowing her to charge the Phantom and reducing the landing lag on her Fair/Bair (the most common changes being suggested in this thread) would certainly be a good start, but it is nowhere near enough if you actually want to make her a great character. She realistically needs buffs to her entire kit if you want her to be worthy of high/top tier placement.

I don't think you went overboard. Zelda is very poor at camping and is definitely not good at close range. She is considered to be the worst character in the game and honestly, she's been bad in every iteration of Smash. She is probably the character who needs the most buffs in Smash right now. To win with Zelda requires you to greatly outplay your opponent. The gap in skill needs to be excessive to get results. I firmly believe Zelda could stand to use every buff you listed, but predominately better combos, special move buffs, better throws.