Things I Like - The Mafia Game - Game Over

[Synchronicity]

By saying their is no resistance on Somi, there is definitely resistance. And also note the people still trying to actively go everywhere else instead of focus on on Somi. It still doesn’t align. No one wants to be blatant here except who has jumped on.

Chaco this was after me and Dark Horse had voted. I definitely think you scum slipped.

 

[fontisian]

Chaco this was after me and Dark Horse had voted. I definitely think you scum slipped.

Can you lay this out for me? If you're waiting for Chaco to reply first, that's fine.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

This to me comes across town. If ff is scum they know the wagon was tvt and it's a long convoluted route to the post above.

this is a really interesting take, really pings town for me, probably more than it should

There's a bunch of stuff that I don't really care for at all and a few things that make me think that Sync could be Town. At this point, I still sort of lean scum, but I would not find it super surprising if they end up as Town either.

why did you go through all that effort just above this comment in this post to illustrate a plausible synch case and then leave such a weird escape hatch at the end?

I'm not for yeeting Fonti, Frozen, Boom, Laser, or pythag at this juncture. I think Boom is more suspicious than my previous suspicions of Fonti and Frozen. I think their interaction is strange still, but I'm going to assume they are just pocketed neighbors.

this is oddly specific, why jump to this particular assumption?

I prefer Synch, but I’ll ride this train.
Vote: LaserGuy

I'm going to vote synch in this post. what are your thoughts on coming back?

Frozen feels less, humm, slimy.

I think this full exchange with Frozen looks pretty good for Syn. It feels very, humm, fair? in how they approached him, and Frozen seemed to agree with that at the time since this is what broke him out of his Chaco tunnel. It doesn't feel like a gotcha thing, but it does shed some light on the origins of Syn's Frozen tunnel. I threw in the question to Pythag as well, because it's close chronologically and has the same feel of this head of hydra trying to dig deeper into a mindset. I strongly recommend going back and reading the whole thing for yourselves.

you have no idea how much you repeating this skeeves me tf out lmao

I also very much disagree with you here re: Synchs pressure there being "fair." from my POV, the whole interaction felt like a giant attempt at a "gotcha" and purposefully trying to corner me or trip me up in some way. I can understand you interpreting it differently, I just very seriously disagree. And I can assure you, it wasn't synch that talked me out of the Chaco tunnel. I still very much feel like the slot was purposefully missing or trying to obscure the point I was making re: why I felt it was suss that chaco added commentary to his vote that was at minimally related to optics

Okay, **** it, I'm pretty sure this is the full solve. I'm VT, go ahead and yeet me and then yeet these three in any order.

Scum is exactly fonti, wam, Chaco.

Here's some important interactions... I can provide references and flesh this out when I have more time:
-Early scum theatre between wam and Gorf. Also Chaco and wam, actually.
-After I push Chaco, wam instabusses without much explanation. Chaco pushes back, mostly focusing on wam rather than me for some nice scum theatre.
-fonti spends a lot of time defending Chaco and chainsawing me.
-Chaco does a PBPA on wam and somi, wam comes up scummier but votes somi anyway
-Scum has a problem that the counterwagon to Chaco is Frozen. fonti has Frozen at lockTown, wam is already bussing, and Frozen has some pretty decent towncred. They don't have the resources to yeet Frozen without compromising themselves.
-fonti's case on me gets no traction
-Sync's case on Kary gets no traction
-Sabrar calls the vote on wam and a bunch of people jump to wam. Many of them are from the Frozen wagon. Big problem because both main wagons are now scum.
-fonti jumps on somi to get another wagon going before the choice is forced between wam/Chaco.
-fonti pressures people to vote somi
-Votes get reorganized to somi/wam. Scum is tapped out with all three of them on somi and get a bit of luck from Mala/Boom to make the save.

-D2 both fonti and Chaco move away from wam though they had expressed interest in him earlier; wam moves away from Chaco and jumps on Sync instead.
-Town run up Sync, Mala.
-I push on fonti and scum counterattack, hoping the votes from pocketed votes from Boom/Frozen will carry the day.

And here we are.

I'll answer the other stuff directed at me this evening. But seriously, it doesn't matter if I get yeeted so feel free if you don't trust me as long as you hit these three next.

please walk me through how and why the scum create such a situation for themselves. this is my principle objection to the fonti is pocketing me theory. I think its an immediate strategic misplay to try to pocket me so early, especially considering the timing of fonti replacing gorf. Why would scum's plan upon fonti replacing be "fonti commit to town reading frozen to pocket him" when it was so early in the game, well before whatever "towncred" I have really developed. In fact, I would argue that the momentum my town cred got was in large part due to fonti throwing her support to my slot. Why in the world would scum box themselves in like that so early and for so little gain other than me, far from town leader, not wanting to yeet scum!fonti? Why would she even be afraid of me in the first place, why not pressure flip me? she's more than capable

#HBC | FrozeηFlame

This and the previous post are the extend of the defense I'm going to give Syn. I think they've been very strange for most of the game. The people they've chosen to go after and the reasons for it have been weird. The fight with Kary now is weird. The way they defend themselves by just getting deeper and deeper in semantics is really weird and kind of indefensible. Them saying to leave Boom for another Day is weird. Them using Sabrar's death to push Boom for not bringing up that Bessie wouldn't like doing that but then not saying that's a reason to townread them is weird, but maybe in a town way, because they really need all the help and wifom they can get now.

You repeat the sentiment that "synch is weird" a lot in this post. I generally agree with that sentiment, but I guess would more specifically say the slot feels discordant. But isn't that a natural way for hydra slots to come off? It's my biggest personal hesitation on the slot, am I letting my frustration with a difficult to read hydra bleed into my alignment assessment? Either way, at the end of the day, I do not feel like this slot is helping me solve this game. At all. Not saying its synchs job to handhold me, thats unfair to ask of anyone, but I can't shake the feeling that this slot doesn't care to read me, only to get me.

Frozen is falling off activity wise, but the way he went back to Sabrar's read to reinforce his read on me feels like someone who /wants/ to be right more anything, and that fits into the picture of his personality I got in Midnight. His relying on me could be throwing me off. I don't think it is. He's significantly more abrasive and loose compared to both Midnight and Vanilla

this is scary accurate I really am not looking forward to rolling scum against town!fonti again like fml the soulread is real

#HBC | FrozeηFlame How do you feel about the way that Synch has been responding? First in regards to their stance on me meta reading them, and second how they responded to Kary.

bad. I feel bad about everything the slot puts out with very rare exception tbh

Started reading first couple pages. Wow you guys post a lot. I originally started playing mafia on xkcd. I'll try to get some kind of post of basic reads before days end. Anything immediate I should know about?

https://www.timeanddate.com/countdo...s+I+Like+the+Mafia+Game+-+Day+2+&font=cursive

as of this post you have approximately 15 hours and 25 minutes left of dayphase. which means you really have ~10-12 hours to get meaningfully caught up if you want to meaningfully contribute and be informed before deadline. not trying to be a ****, I'm not gonna hold it against you if you can't be 100% up to speed in that short a window, I certainly wouldnt be under normal circumstances, but just trying to make sure you know you're on the clock bro and boy is it ****ing ticking

also big picture wise, Sabrar and somi both flipped town and laserguy claimed VT randomly without anyone asking. Wam was competing wagon to somi at EoD1 and had 6/7 votes required to lynch

Meh.

anyone else beginning to feel like synch is attacking lots of slots, "flailing" as chaco put it, to muddy the waters for the slots papertrail if it flips? I feel like in a weird sense, synchs aggroness to so many slots is actually a defensive strategy that serves dual purposes: 1. the slot gets to feel around for threads to tug to move the spotlight away and 2. upon flip it's harder to tell who the slot was trying to legit distance and which the slot was actually trying to push to overtake as leading wagon

Vote: Synchronicity

I realllllly didn't like how I hopped off as a safety measure and then the wagon started immediately dying

 

[Synchronicity]

Can you lay this out for me? If you're waiting for Chaco to reply first, that's fine.

He's straight up lying:

and it was obvious that Somi was going to be the one to go when the wagon started to ramp up

This is a really strange and scummy take. How was it obvious? Wam and somi were neck and neck til the end.

About Somi, look at the upswing momentum, it’s clear that Somi was going to be lynched. Wam caught up and tied it sure, but that was the last vote that was goin to be placed there. Normal circumstances of it not falling on Mala, Somi goes before it’s even thought about. It would ultimately fall back on reasonable Wam doubt again when there wasn’t that speculation on Somi. You act like me being blunt and saying it is a scummy take. Anything you can do to try and deviate what’s obvious to fit, huh?

I can guarantee you that not a single other person in this thread share your opinion.

And yeah no one will probably agree with me on Somi, but the trajectory is clear. Explain to me why it’s a scummy take because it’s a different take? Those two don’t equal one another.

It comes across as informed. Consider that the wagon consisted of mostly (if not all town). From the perspective of mafia watching the wagon build, they see that it is honestly driven from actual townies, so the wagon appears to them as having more momentum than say the wam wagon consisting of 2 or more scum.

Wam was discussed at length, and ultimately left to rest as is. I mean left alone for basically two irl days, right? Pursuits continued elsewhere. Sabrar literally called it though, all you guys saying Wam is scummy put your votes where your mouth is, and Somi instantly caught momentum.

Cause of what I’m saying that Somi had the momentum probs. Wam had to much reasonable doubt.

I knew Somi was going to be the yeet when he got DHs vote. It’s not obvious in a sense of its so obvious it’s plain to see, I’m saying look at all the slots commentaries on Wam and then end of Day at Somi and you’ll see Somi clearly had the momentum.

I saw it at the time, only person I had to basically respond anything to was Sabrar and that was before the wagon really began. It’s more obvious in hindsight though. Just look at the progression and you’ll see what I mean. The votes on Wam could already be counted on him, as a counter wagon, if you know what I mean, the swing votes were DH and Synch, imo.

He's claiming that it was obvious to him at the time that Somi was going to be the yeet because of how instantly it ramped up at the time. He specifically states he felt this after Dark Horse voted.

Yet this was his response to Sabrar at the time, and this was after me and Dark Horse had vote:

There is ****ing resistance on wam. There is none on somi. Where is your usual mantra?

By saying their is no resistance on Somi, there is definitely resistance. And also note the people still trying to actively go everywhere else instead of focus on on Somi. It still doesn’t align. No one wants to be blatant here except who has jumped on.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Chaco this was after me and Dark Horse had voted. I definitely think you scum slipped.

unironically handhold me on this despite me literally saying its lame to ask people to handhold for you in my last post

Can you lay this out for me? If you're waiting for Chaco to reply first, that's fine.

ok phew glad I'm not the only one, seconding this, you can wait for chaco

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

ok wow that was fast ninjad

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I still do not understand why laserguy claimed that was so out of left field like wtf Im rattled

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

but I unironically think synch should claim tbh

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I know L-2 isn't as scary as my last vote was but plz respect my wishes

 

[Synchronicity]

Thoughts on the Chaco thing Frozen?

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

reading your post now, to be followed by thinking

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

and also multitasking trying to re-read EoD sabrar cuz again hes a town homie and worth it

 

[LaserGuy]

and it was obvious that Somi was going to be the one to go when the wagon started to ramp up.

I am deeply skeptical of this.

Vote LaserGuy

I feel like you should know me better than this. Then again, you often scumread me when I'm Town and I rarely understand why.

Right, sorry. I'd read the reads but forgotten the list. And you're scum team is exactly the first three people to vote you. Well, nice call there at least.

What in particular about my play stuck you as scummy? You usually have some actual insight on my slot. Why did you not even mention me in your reads?

What do you find townie about DH?

I was meaning to do a reread on your slot last night but I spent 3 hours just doing fonti, Sync, and Mala. Short answer is, I haven't really seen you do anything that has pinged Town for me, and the last couple of games I've played with you, I haven't had trouble reading you. You're probably okay by PoE, but if I've missed on one of wam/fonti/Chaco then you're one of the few people that I'm not sold on.

DH has had a generally townie approach to the game and very solid process. I have vibed with a lot of their commentary.

Laser clearly doesn't have a problem with meta reads normally.

I have played ~20 games with Sabrar. Yes, when he wants to be read as Town, I can easily read him as such. As could BoomFrog, Sync, somi and wam.

LaserGuy Thats inaccurate though because I spent D1 trying to sort Wam and spent a long time trying to figure that out. I don’t believe I’ve ever expressed interest in Wam toDay. Also, why has your sync read changed again and since when? Also you amended saying I seemed town when I caught Synch in a slip, so why am I still scum here?

I did a full reread on Sync and my evaluation changed, though not that much, honestly. Other slots are scummier, and are acting in a more coordinated manner that I don't see coming out of Sync in the same way. Saying that those were the first few posts of yours seemed townie does not imply that I think you're Town.

Give me something to work with here so I can figure you out, all you’ve done so far this game is tunnel hopped. Your progression really is nonexistent then you push out another hypothetical scum team from left field.

I have been fairly confident on you and fonti since late D1. I wasn't certain about the third for quite some time. Also that comment at the top of this about somi is just awful.

I still have to read your case on Fonti, but this post like literally gives me the giving up town vibe But at the same timeI feel it makes no sense coming from you.

As I said, I have a good feel of the flow of the game. I'm well aware that my case isn't going to be convincing enough for people to take me seriously. fonti is too good, I've burned too many bridges tunneling you. There's a decent chance I get yeeted making this case. I'm just not really that concerned about it.

fontisian LaserGuy @BoomFrog #HBC | FrozeηFlame @Pythag

I'd like each of your takes on this. My goal is to show that Kary's reasoning is insincere. I am just an easy player he can sit his vote on under the excuse of "It's Xivii! omg im so mad at Xivii raaaawr." There is no goal of actually figuring out this slots alignment.

His argument is that I am avoiding going after "strong players like frozen and himself" as stated below:
I responded by pointing out that I did indeed go after a "strong player," him Day 1. Yet his response to this, in the quote up above, is to suggest that he wasn't someone difficult to yeet. This completely contradicts his original argument. Are you all able to see how he is adjusting his case to whatever I say? There's no real sincerity behind it.

I'll come back to this later.

So what your saying is you agree that there was some weird crap going down at EoD yesterday that is hella sus and makes connections to people? Cool. What do you think of Synch? He jumped on with Fonti right after, after previously being suspicious of Wam.

I actually believe Sync is being genuine that this:

Oh, hello :3

Is him getting an interesting ninja reply. I don't think fonti/Sync coordinated to save wam at this juncture. It's too blatant. Probably there is at least one scum here (cough*fonti*cough), but I think the timing of the votes is more likely coincidence.

The other two I can see , but Chaco has been pretty town to me this game. I know you have been on him the whole time, but that hasn't really been convincing to me honestly.

Can you explain what pings you townie about Chaco?

Started reading first couple pages. Wow you guys post a lot. I originally started playing mafia on xkcd. I'll try to get some kind of post of basic reads before days end. Anything immediate I should know about?

Hi heury!

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

My notes say that Malak has townie tone, Gorf/fonti is town and if Dark Horse is scum then Gorf must be scum which together with the previous must mean that Dark Horse is town as well.

you have no ****ing idea how badly I wish sab was alive to walk me thru the dark horse part

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Also, read the Laser/me fight in full, jeez.

is this a general directive or for a particular slot?

 

[Wam]

Thoughts on the Chaco thing Frozen?

What does scum chaco get by lying above.

On phone trying to catch up with everything!

 

[Synchronicity]

Essentially, I think somi was an intentional yeet from Chaco. It was to him that somi would be yeeted because he was driving it. I think when he stated that it was obvious he slipped cause he was in the middle of making another point. And I believe he forgot about that response he made to Sabrar which was scum trying to make sure the somi wagon went through.

 

[Wam]

Essentially, I think somi was an intentional yeet from Chaco. It was to him that somi would be yeeted because he was driving it. I think when he stated that it was obvious he slipped cause he was in the middle of making another point. And I believe he forgot about that response he made to Sabrar which was scum trying to make sure the somi wagon went through.

Ok I can see the point. But if the wagon is tvt why does chaco make sure the somi wagon goes through?

 

[Synchronicity]

Ok I can see the point. But if the wagon is tvt why does chaco make sure the somi wagon goes through?

Ask Kary or pythag.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Thoughts on the Chaco thing Frozen?

ok I've actually digested the point I think, I see what you're trying to highlight as inconsistent, hesitant to comment on it now though because I'm still trying to sort chaco (haha low key I never stopped tunneling in my head ) and I want to see how he responds to the posts I make tonight before I reveal my position on your case. ultimately its an ambiguous issue because what was meant by obvious is ambiguous

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

What does scum chaco get by lying above.

I don't think Synchronicity is asserting the "lie" was strategic, if I'm understanding correctly and as the slot has previously stated, they believe it was a slip. why did you think there was deliberate calculus involved?

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Ask Kary or pythag.

it is so ****ing hard to tell if this is blatant mudslining in following with my theory you're trying to obscure/homogenize your paper trail or genuine paranoia about a chaco/kary/pythag team lmaoooo man **** this game is hard and everyone is this game is legit too good, no free reads blows

 

[Synchronicity]

god I really wish we could iso on this site

 

[Synchronicity]

it is so *ing hard to tell if this is blatant mudslining in following with my theory you're trying to obscure/homogenize your paper trail or genuine paranoia about a chaco/kary/pythag team lmaoooo man * this game is hard and everyone is this game is legit too good, no free reads blows

It's mudslinging. I asked Kary the same question earlier with regard to myself. He believes that Wam is town, so it didn't make sense to me why he believed I manufactured a somi yeet against it.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

you can! top right corner, seach "this thread" and fill in the "by:" section with their username, I've essentially had a Sab ISO tab open at all times while reading this game lol

 

[Synchronicity]

smashboards: hey we're going to turn your curse words into asterisks
also smashboards: hey asterisks in your posts make them bold

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

and I'm sure I'm disappointing him day by day not using it to have a good solve at this point lmao

 

[Synchronicity]

you can! top right corner, seach "this thread" and fill in the "by:" section with their username, I've essentially had a Sab ISO tab open at all times while reading this game lol

It's not a proper iso though because it doesn't show the full posts and they can be out of order :(

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

more accurately stated, I'm sure I'm disappointing him day by day by failing despite trying to use his notes to solve

 

[LaserGuy]

this is a really interesting take, really pings town for me, probably more than it should

why did you go through all that effort just above this comment in this post to illustrate a plausible synch case and then leave such a weird escape hatch at the end?

I'm very ambivalent about the slot and have been swinging back and forth all game on them.

please walk me through how and why the scum create such a situation for themselves. this is my principle objection to the fonti is pocketing me theory. I think its an immediate strategic misplay to try to pocket me so early, especially considering the timing of fonti replacing gorf. Why would scum's plan upon fonti replacing be "fonti commit to town reading frozen to pocket him" when it was so early in the game, well before whatever "towncred" I have really developed. In fact, I would argue that the momentum my town cred got was in large part due to fonti throwing her support to my slot. Why in the world would scum box themselves in like that so early and for so little gain other than me, far from town leader, not wanting to yeet scum!fonti? Why would she even be afraid of me in the first place, why not pressure flip me? she's more than capable

As I've said before, I think that it was more in fonti's interest at the time to try to relieve the pressure on her slot, and one of the ways she did that was to try to pocket you. I also think that fonti is fully capable, as scum, of reasoning what how she would read you if she were Town (see the notes she posted of SS, for example) and will aim to be genuine insofar as she is able to. I don't think she commits to a big push at you unless she has to.

I still do not understand why laserguy claimed that was so out of left field like wtf Im rattled

Easier just to put my cards on the table now rather than spending all day tomorrow trying to fight a losing battle and get yeeted anyway.

Ok I can see the point. But if the wagon is tvt why does chaco make sure the somi wagon goes through?

Maybe the wagon isn't TvT.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

It's not a proper iso though because it doesn't show the full posts and they can be out of order

oh yeah you have to click on each post to get the full thing to show up, yeah its a bit tedious but atleast you get all the posts in a pile

didn't realize they could be out of order? I thought they were listed in reverse chronological order

 

[Wam]

oh yeah you have to click on each post to get the full thing to show up, yeah its a bit tedious but atleast you get all the posts in a pile

didn't realize they could be out of order? I thought they were listed in reverse chronological order

Based on my very limited experience if you just sort by author its chronological if you put a search term in I.e. vote it goes out of order.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

lasers #1550 feels pretty town

synchro just claim so he doesn't have to be the only one

but for real though

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I want ****ing time to think about and digest a claim from a slot with xivii in it, not scrambling at the last minute

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

gotta get some sleep, catch yall tomorrow

Synchronicity plz just claim asap and tag me so I can read it and sleep on thanks much

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

also don't dodge my question re: why you're assuming fonti and I are neighbors that'd be hella lame

 

[Synchronicity]

#HBC | FrozeηFlame you don't have to worry about any shenanigans, I don't intend to claim.

I explained the neighbor thing already. If you guys aren't able to communicate in some fashion, I'll be very surprised.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

#HBC | FrozeηFlame you don't have to worry about any shenanigans, I don't intend to claim.

ok thanks for tagging me but at this

I explained the neighbor thing already

link/quote plz

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

saying "I refuse to claim" instead of just claiming VT if you want your claim to be a marginal consideration has me all sorts of ****ed up ngl, just gonna sleep on that instead

 

[Wam]

Working through the overnight content. Ff and myself seem to be on diametrically opposite sleep patterns!

To the meta point below: what I think was the last game I played with laser as scum I seem to remeber him coasting. It was the game I was a fruit picker but I can't for the life of me remeber the game name.

He seems like Laser in midnight to me, around D2-D3 is was noticeable that he was more coasting along and not actively scumhunting. I haven’t read his case on you yet, but that’s the first push I’ve seen from him since the one on me. I’m gonna catch up in a bit, just got home from work.

Does anyone have a good read on Pythag this game, or is he kind’ve ambiguous title most?

I have him in the town bucket. But I'm rereading and can,t currently point to why.

Okay, **** it, I'm pretty sure this is the full solve. I'm VT, go ahead and yeet me and then yeet these three in any order.

Scum is exactly fonti, wam, Chaco.

Here's some important interactions... I can provide references and flesh this out when I have more time:
-Early scum theatre between wam and Gorf. Also Chaco and wam, actually.
-After I push Chaco, wam instabusses without much explanation. Chaco pushes back, mostly focusing on wam rather than me for some nice scum theatre.
-fonti spends a lot of time defending Chaco and chainsawing me.
-Chaco does a PBPA on wam and somi, wam comes up scummier but votes somi anyway
-Scum has a problem that the counterwagon to Chaco is Frozen. fonti has Frozen at lockTown, wam is already bussing, and Frozen has some pretty decent towncred. They don't have the resources to yeet Frozen without compromising themselves.
-fonti's case on me gets no traction
-Sync's case on Kary gets no traction
-Sabrar calls the vote on wam and a bunch of people jump to wam. Many of them are from the Frozen wagon. Big problem because both main wagons are now scum.
-fonti jumps on somi to get another wagon going before the choice is forced between wam/Chaco.
-fonti pressures people to vote somi
-Votes get reorganized to somi/wam. Scum is tapped out with all three of them on somi and get a bit of luck from Mala/Boom to make the save.

-D2 both fonti and Chaco move away from wam though they had expressed interest in him earlier; wam moves away from Chaco and jumps on Sync instead.
-Town run up Sync, Mala.
-I push on fonti and scum counterattack, hoping the votes from pocketed votes from Boom/Frozen will carry the day.

And here we are.

I'll answer the other stuff directed at me this evening. But seriously, it doesn't matter if I get yeeted so feel free if you don't trust me as long as you hit these three next.

So the post above. I disagree with the initial premise. As far as I can tell the entire case falls apart with a town wam. The bit that I'm going back on forth on is that is this wrong town laser or scum laser pushing a mislynch.

Laser voted Wam at eod Yesterday.

Idk, I don't know if I've literally ever seen scum be like "Yeet me and then kill my scumreads."

Have you seen town do it when under the same pressure as laser. I have only seen it late in the day