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There's something wrong in my Zelda. What do you think?

ZäP

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 12, 2006
Messages
110
Location
Rovaniemi, Finland prkl
Hi!

I've been playing Zelda couple of years now but I think I'm still missing something so would someone like to tell me what should I train more?

Here's few videos to watch. I'll get my *** kicked most of the time so thats the one to do better but anyother things to do?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-hU6us-lfxI
me against bEst's samus

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SeMbiSAoNL8
again versus bEst(sheik)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mSPYTOd2n-k
yet again vs. bEst(luigi)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vMsdj2xRC-s
...again vs. bEst(galco)

Well... any opinions?

______________
And sorry if you couldn't understand text... I'll try to explain...;)

I'd like to just make a note that my common opponent is Finlands second best smasher(if someone of you was at RoS4 he was that all white clothes and white stetson(dunno how is it writen)) and I myself am around sixteenth in rankings...
 

O D I N

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 13, 2005
Messages
7,408
Location
GameAngel64's house, getting my @#% handed to me.
3DS FC
4098-3123-8629
For one, you're wearing a name tag. That gives away Zelda's teleport; They can see where you're going.

Not much else I can comment on. You seemed TOO defensive. Never really went in for an attack (only watch the one vs. Samus). I'm sure the real Zelda players can help you out more than I could. Good luck though! You're off to a great start.
 

HideousBeing

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 21, 2007
Messages
733
Location
Escondido, CA
I'm watching this as I comment, so I don't forget anything.
Match 1:
-Nice pulsewalking, although you do it a little too much. It makes your opponent confident that you are hesitant about coming close to him, and justifies spamming missiles.
-You gotta use jump cancelled Nayru's Love to do the move right out of your run. When you're running at Samus, and she fires a Super Missile, if you're close enough, and JC Nayru's Love, the lag time from the move will result in her getting hit. Be careful, you know that the move is easily punishable if they dodge.
-JC Nayru's Love is also good for beating off an opponent close to you. If you're shielding and they come close to you, or are close to you, JC Nayru's Love.
-JC your shield into a lightning kick when spaced properly. Some arials (I think Samus's dair does) make you slide in your shield enough to JC and land a sweetspotted fair or bair.
-It looks like you know that dsmash is Zelda's quickest grounded move, and you use it appropriately.
-Use Din's Fire when possible to mess with Samus's bomb recovery.
-Rememer, against characters like Samus (or anyone who can spam projectiles), pressure is key. Always be on top of them, because sitting back and avoiding approach can gain you nothing.
-Nice powershield BTW.
Match 2:
-Yeah, be careful. Zelda cannot recover on FD if you do Farore's wind below the edge, unless you use your DJ to shift it a little over.
-You got the right idea for the Nayru's Love edgeguard. Works wonders against Sheik.
Match 3:
-The fsmash sometimes yields nice results in close combat. Close combat usually prompts the quickest attacks, which usually have little range. Zelda's fsmash pulls her hitboxes back, which allows her (possibly) to dodge the petty attack and then she comes back with a powerfull (and hopefully sweetspotted) attack.
-Haha, that made me laugh out loud. Yeah, don't ever make assumptions about Luigi's recovery. I always wait and make sure it's not misfire, before I counter. Always prepare for a misfire.
-I like how careful you are with your grab. You use it frugally and only when safe.
Match 4:
-When you knock an opponent across the stage and need to chase for the edgeguard, don't run. First use Farore's wind completely horizontal to cover the majority of the distance. Then make it there (if there's any distance left to go) by running and WDing repeatedly in that direction. It is a faster way to move than dashing for Zelda, because her opening dash animation moves her faster than her continued dashing.
-You shouldn't use ftilt at a defensive strat or an approach. Zelda's jab is quicker and has more range, even if the results aren't as satisfying. I'm surprised by how much you use this move. I only use in mid combo or to start a combo against a post-lag suffering foe.
-You need to DI more when you know you're in trouble. If you miss a fsmash or something, and you see you're going to get punished, determine what direction is going to be best to counter whatever is coming, and time it.

That's it. A lot of what I've said in one Match goes for the other too. Remember, I was just watching, noticing, pausing and jotting. Good Zelda overall. No, I don't say that to everyone. Make sure you read other critiques too though. What I've told you is just how I would solve your mistakes. The others are sure to have more to say and even contradictions to make. So read everyone's critiques. GG's.

Edit: What ODIN said. ^^^ Ergh. I can't stress that enough.
 

ZäP

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 12, 2006
Messages
110
Location
Rovaniemi, Finland prkl
O D I N said:
For one, you're wearing a name tag. That gives away Zelda's teleport; They can see where you're going.

Not much else I can comment on. You seemed TOO defensive. Never really went in for an attack (only watch the one vs. Samus). I'm sure the real Zelda players can help you out more than I could. Good luck though! You're off to a great start.
Yeah, the name tag, it's always remembered, but I usually use it because I'm expert to lose myself...:laugh:
I've never played offensive excpect with Falcon and Ganon... and some times Mario...


I'm watching this as I comment, so I don't forget anything.
Match 1:
-Nice pulsewalking, although you do it a little too much. It makes your opponent confident that you are hesitant about coming close to him, and justifies spamming missiles.
-You gotta use jump cancelled Nayru's Love to do the move right out of your run. When you're running at Samus, and she fires a Super Missile, if you're close enough, and JC Nayru's Love, the lag time from the move will result in her getting hit. Be careful, you know that the move is easily punishable if they dodge.
-JC Nayru's Love is also good for beating off an opponent close to you. If you're shielding and they come close to you, or are close to you, JC Nayru's Love.
-JC your shield into a lightning kick when spaced properly. Some arials (I think Samus's dair does) make you slide in your shield enough to JC and land a sweetspotted fair or bair.
-It looks like you know that dsmash is Zelda's quickest grounded move, and you use it appropriately.
-Use Din's Fire when possible to mess with Samus's bomb recovery.
-Rememer, against characters like Samus (or anyone who can spam projectiles), pressure is key. Always be on top of them, because sitting back and avoiding approach can gain you nothing.
-Nice powershield BTW.
-Yup, I pulsewalk too much gotta admit after watched my matches again, little decrease should fix the problem.
-Hmm... Never really used JC nayru's before... Maybe it might do the trick. Atleast gonna give it a try.
-Usually I don't 'spam' moves especially zelda's fair/bair and I use rarely JC shield fair/bair
-Gotta find fast moves or die more quickier;)
-Din's Fire, yes, I rarely remember to use it.... only use when doing 'combo cancel' whit it.
-Pressure? Well I'm not really offensive player and as you might have seen I try to find a hole from my opponents attack and stab there...
-Thanks, I've trained powershielding a lot.

Match 2:
-Yeah, be careful. Zelda cannot recover on FD if you do Farore's wind below the edge, unless you use your DJ to shift it a little over.
-You got the right idea for the Nayru's Love edgeguard. Works wonders against Sheik.
Most of time try to change the place where to start recovery if jump has gone which usually ends up me falling short after teleport... Yeah, should watch that out.
That Nayru's Love trick just don't to seems work well when I'm executing it though training makes wonders...

Match 3:
-The fsmash sometimes yields nice results in close combat. Close combat usually prompts the quickest attacks, which usually have little range. Zelda's fsmash pulls her hitboxes back, which allows her (possibly) to dodge the petty attack and then she comes back with a powerfull (and hopefully sweetspotted) attack.
-Haha, that made me laugh out loud. Yeah, don't ever make assumptions about Luigi's recovery. I always wait and make sure it's not misfire, before I counter. Always prepare for a misfire.
-I like how careful you are with your grab. You use it frugally and only when safe.
The problem with Zelda fsmash has is that it can be DI'd out in some cases(atleast in PAL version) which leaves Zelda vulnerable to powerful hits and combos, though 'smash dodge' is great benefit.
Luigi is always Luigi, yet I really didn't expect luigi to misfire since that was his fisrt misfire in a month and he played reqularly Luigi at that time, which is quite opposite to our Luigi mainer who can pull off from three to six or more misfire in a row.:chuckle:
Zelda's grap is way too slow and laggy even if you use JC grap which makes it usable only when the grap is guaranteed.

Match 4:
-When you knock an opponent across the stage and need to chase for the edgeguard, don't run. First use Farore's wind completely horizontal to cover the majority of the distance. Then make it there (if there's any distance left to go) by running and WDing repeatedly in that direction. It is a faster way to move than dashing for Zelda, because her opening dash animation moves her faster than her continued dashing.
-You shouldn't use ftilt at a defensive strat or an approach. Zelda's jab is quicker and has more range, even if the results aren't as satisfying. I'm surprised by how much you use this move. I only use in mid combo or to start a combo against a post-lag suffering foe.
-You need to DI more when you know you're in trouble. If you miss a fsmash or something, and you see you're going to get punished, determine what direction is going to be best to counter whatever is coming, and time it.
Yeah, I always forgot teleport after flying opponent, it's a pain, really, to tey move fast with sluggish character like Zelda.
Reason why I use ftilt so much is that I try, in small percentages, get opponents above me so I can try to combo him/her upwards whit utilt or usmash witch can be followed with fair/bair or just improvising or in other cases I'm just doing them as a reaction...
Ah, yes, I'm rather poor at DI'ing and mostly end up doing so called huge european DI or 'Matti DI', which, here in Finland means you end up DI little downwards from ground level...



That's it. A lot of what I've said in one Match goes for the other too. Remember, I was just watching, noticing, pausing and jotting. Good Zelda overall. No, I don't say that to everyone. Make sure you read other critiques too though. What I've told you is just how I would solve your mistakes. The others are sure to have more to say and even contradictions to make. So read everyone's critiques. GG's.

Edit: What ODIN said. ^^^ Ergh. I can't stress that enough.
Thanks you've been a great help among other people, I'll post more vids. when I get some...
 

Rapid_Assassin

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
4,163
Location
RI
You teleport way too much vs. Samus. And because you're wearing a tag, he shot you with more missiles. You get hit by way too many missiles for someone who can powershield. Part of it relates to the teleport, though. Don't roll away to dodge missiles. Powershield them. Try not to stay in your shield too long when you powershield.
 

Zone

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
2,483
Location
Pensacola, FL
I'm gonna give exact moment times where I personally woulda done something different.

Match1
:28 That tech got you missiled to the face. Be sure you know when to get up and which way to roll and such. That was dmg you shouldn't have taken ;\.

:31 Just be more accurate. I got more accurate with kicks, by spamming them in matches even though it was causing me to lose, I spammed them vs a human opponent, then when I felt comfortable that they were accurate I went back to my old game. By Spamming kicks I mean double bair- shffl'd repeat. Retreating with it if you must, and need to space them.

2:47 instead of turning around, he was asking for a B-air ;\

If your gonna have game tag on don't teleport at them lol

You may be defensive, but soemtimes Offense is the best defense. With proper spacing, and right jumple of low lag moves you can keep you opponent defensive until his defense has a break in it. Don't get me wrong defense is good, But leaving yourself in a defensive mode the entire match does nothing but let him barrage attacks on You, with proper spacing and distance, until you screw up and get hit. Like your messed up wavedash near start, you ate a missile. you really need a mixture of both.

Match 4 vs Falco
Ahhh my specialty lol
:14 Ok you may have grabbed him but that's because he messed up. Never shield grab unless it's a Smash attack or u blocked a down tilt, works on dash attacks to. Falco's just too fast. If you can punish ur friend with those grabs alot, good it works on him, but when he gets better you'll have to find a different way.

:16 awww lol, I mess up to sometimes, gotta think quick with chaingrabbing left or right. Have you friend let you grab him, and tell him to try crazy DI, and practice. Since I don't get to grab often vs fast animals I too get out of practice when I finally get the opportunity.

I saw alot more missed grabs, Try mixing up dash attacks in, they lead to combos. And when he thinks you may dash attack again then try and grab. Don't try and grab like 3-4 times in a row. I know chaingrab -> kick can almost mean death for falco, but he has platforms to escape to, and it's not worth the misses if you can't grab because he's expecting it.

wow for some lame reason I can't watch the video pass where the falco killed himself on first stock.

well here is some other falco advice that apply that I use.

if he's coming at you from high with a down-air, Uptilt will trade hits. You'll get hit to, but so will he, and that's alot better than letting him pwned on ur shield with piller and other nasty stuff.

Jab-->grab or Dash attack: when he's close works good. What happened to ur pro powershielding this match >< (Can't watch last half remember)

Since falco's recovery sucks, Down air can sometimes make his Up+B become death. Not too much you can do vs his illusion to grab the edge, but I try downtilt or something just incase he's too high, and didn't sweet spot.

Kicks are scary, Land 2-3 kicks off and your opponent will be scared to approach you somtimes, So as DarkAtma showed me, I was more accurate with rising kicks than falling ones. Just more practice at making sure you kick lands, but your not so close to get shield grabbed.
 

HideousBeing

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 21, 2007
Messages
733
Location
Escondido, CA
If I'm correct, you have nothing to gain from JC grab with Zelda. I believe her dashing grab is quicker and has more range. They both suck though. Zone's right, the Falco messed up. Shield grabbing his fsmash or dash attack is more alright. (I don't even know if the latter is quite safe.)

Speaking of lightning kicks though, does anyone else seem to prefer the bair to the fair? I don't know why, but when I tend to feel more comfortable trying with the bair. I don't know why. Does it have better range or execution time or something? I also feel like I can pull it off closer to the ground when JC lightning kicking. Obviously it's better to edgeguard with it, because you are available to grab the ledge easier with a DJ return, ...maybe that's it?
 

Zone

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
2,483
Location
Pensacola, FL
Back-air is quicker I think. I pull off in place double back-airs better than double forward-airs in place more easily. Not sure about dmg.

Quicker in the sense you can do another aerial after it quicker than forward air.(again I think)

But I to also actually turn myself around cuz I prefer the B-air.
 

Citrussed

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Messages
303
Location
Melbourne!
Bair is slightly faster than fair making it easier to double bairs like you said but Fair actually has more range. :)
 

ZäP

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 12, 2006
Messages
110
Location
Rovaniemi, Finland prkl
You teleport way too much vs. Samus. And because you're wearing a tag, he shot you with more missiles. You get hit by way too many missiles for someone who can powershield. Part of it relates to the teleport, though. Don't roll away to dodge missiles. Powershield them. Try not to stay in your shield too long when you powershield.
Quess I do teleport way too much and yes fir someone who powershield I did get hit too many times. My timing really sucks...
Wow, I actually did roll away from missile, can't remember when I last time did that?:confused:
Staying in shield is a old habit and old habits die hard...



I'm gonna give exact moment times where I personally woulda done something different.

Match1
:28 That tech got you missiled to the face. Be sure you know when to get up and which way to roll and such. That was dmg you shouldn't have taken ;\.

:31 Just be more accurate. I got more accurate with kicks, by spamming them in matches even though it was causing me to lose, I spammed them vs a human opponent, then when I felt comfortable that they were accurate I went back to my old game. By Spamming kicks I mean double bair- shffl'd repeat. Retreating with it if you must, and need to space them.

2:47 instead of turning around, he was asking for a B-air ;\

If your gonna have game tag on don't teleport at them lol

You may be defensive, but soemtimes Offense is the best defense. With proper spacing, and right jumple of low lag moves you can keep you opponent defensive until his defense has a break in it. Don't get me wrong defense is good, But leaving yourself in a defensive mode the entire match does nothing but let him barrage attacks on You, with proper spacing and distance, until you screw up and get hit. Like your messed up wavedash near start, you ate a missile. you really need a mixture of both.

Match 4 vs Falco
Ahhh my specialty lol
:14 Ok you may have grabbed him but that's because he messed up. Never shield grab unless it's a Smash attack or u blocked a down tilt, works on dash attacks to. Falco's just too fast. If you can punish ur friend with those grabs alot, good it works on him, but when he gets better you'll have to find a different way.

:16 awww lol, I mess up to sometimes, gotta think quick with chaingrabbing left or right. Have you friend let you grab him, and tell him to try crazy DI, and practice. Since I don't get to grab often vs fast animals I too get out of practice when I finally get the opportunity.

I saw alot more missed grabs, Try mixing up dash attacks in, they lead to combos. And when he thinks you may dash attack again then try and grab. Don't try and grab like 3-4 times in a row. I know chaingrab -> kick can almost mean death for falco, but he has platforms to escape to, and it's not worth the misses if you can't grab because he's expecting it.

wow for some lame reason I can't watch the video pass where the falco killed himself on first stock.

well here is some other falco advice that apply that I use.

if he's coming at you from high with a down-air, Uptilt will trade hits. You'll get hit to, but so will he, and that's alot better than letting him pwned on ur shield with piller and other nasty stuff.

Jab-->grab or Dash attack: when he's close works good. What happened to ur pro powershielding this match >< (Can't watch last half remember)

Since falco's recovery sucks, Down air can sometimes make his Up+B become death. Not too much you can do vs his illusion to grab the edge, but I try downtilt or something just incase he's too high, and didn't sweet spot.

Kicks are scary, Land 2-3 kicks off and your opponent will be scared to approach you somtimes, So as DarkAtma showed me, I was more accurate with rising kicks than falling ones. Just more practice at making sure you kick lands, but your not so close to get shield grabbed.
:28Teching comes always as reaction, atleast most of the time, but true that could have avoided.

:31It's rather odd that I've really never spammed any move a lot and never trained anything with spamming, but maybe it might help...

2:47-Agreed he really was asking for it.

Teleport, my only weakness, among the others:chuckle:

True it can't be denied, that offense is best defense, but in my opinion zelda isn't a characters who'll go and attack and yes, I've noticed that only defend tactics I'll end up losing most of my matches, but attacking does the same so I've been staying in defensive position...

vs falco(match4)

Yeah I really grabbed way too much in that match, there where I shouldn't have. It really cost me stocks...

Only time I've ever tried that chaingrab against human player and probably never use it again.

Utilt you say, eh? Never thought, never tried, maybe it's good time to start trying.

Jab start combo, can do, though some reason or another I always end up using ftilt... I had a bad day when palying this match so my powershielding scewed me... ><
Now days I usually try d-air to drop falco and couple others chars, it works beter than I've ever thought...


If I'm correct, you have nothing to gain from JC grab with Zelda. I believe her dashing grab is quicker and has more range. They both suck though. Zone's right, the Falco messed up. Shield grabbing his fsmash or dash attack is more alright. (I don't even know if the latter is quite safe.)

Speaking of lightning kicks though, does anyone else seem to prefer the bair to the fair? I don't know why, but when I tend to feel more comfortable trying with the bair. I don't know why. Does it have better range or execution time or something? I also feel like I can pull it off closer to the ground when JC lightning kicking. Obviously it's better to edgeguard with it, because you are available to grab the ledge easier with a DJ return, ...maybe that's it?
Might be, but I've played so long using JC grab so it's kind of habit to me... Dash grab does have more range, but I've always thought that it lasts about same time as the standing grab...
Personally I'd probably never try again shield grab falco's dash since it still hits you, for some reason...

B-air is little faster than f-air, I think...

Thanks again...
 

Zone

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
2,483
Location
Pensacola, FL
:31It's rather odd that I've really never spammed any move a lot and never trained anything with spamming, but maybe it might help...
It's much like practicing Technical skill, except now your practicing accuracy, and it's best to practice that vs a human player. But I mean that's how I trained myself, something different may work for you better.


True it can't be denied, that offense is best defense, but in my opinion zelda isn't a characters who'll go and attack and yes, I've noticed that only defend tactics I'll end up losing most of my matches, but attacking does the same so I've been staying in defensive position...
I know where you're coming from, I use to think attacking got me shield grabbed or combo'd. Your best way to attack and defend is to defend with a better priority move. For example:

Uptilt against Falco's Down air(Trade hits)
Jab at a dashing falco
Powershielding Lazers
Forward smashing his illusion(Forward B)

That along with spacing.

Only time I've ever tried that chaingrab against human player and probably never use it again.
Huh? That chaingrab will destroy a fast faller, You just need practice at catching and following DI. But don't look for a grab opportunity, With enough fighting you'll see it. Such as a roll, or a tech roll, or a blocked smash. But yea Poke'mon stadium isn't too hot for chaingrabbing because of those platforms.

Jab start combo, can do, though some reason or another I always end up using ftilt... I had a bad day when palying this match so my powershielding scewed me... ><
Now days I usually try d-air to drop falco and couple others chars, it works beter than I've ever thought...
Forward tilt isn't bad, it's just slower. Sometimes Forward tilt pushed my shielded enemy away from me getting me out of shield grab range (Spacing). It's just better to switch moves up and remain unpredictable. So Jabs are good, so are forward tilts, lots of matches will help you realize when the best time to use either. But I prefer jabbing mainly because it's safer, and Forward tilt does lead to combos though usually.



Might be, but I've played so long using JC grab so it's kind of habit to me... Dash grab does have more range, but I've always thought that it lasts about same time as the standing grab...
Personally I'd probably never try again shield grab falco's dash since it still hits you, for some reason...

B-air is little faster than f-air, I think...

Thanks again...
hmmmm, maybe because my friend always dash attacks so he ends his animation passed me. And I'll reverse block out of a dash dance to grab him from behind. I guess I didn't stop to think about a frontal dash attack(I guess?). Or maybe I'm thinking about Fox or something. oh well you got my point though lol, only grab on long lag moves.
 
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