The Zelda "Megadump" Thread

[Pika_thunder]

About the frames of noninvulerability... That's assuming you get past the high priority crystals made of skrewyourattack-inite. lol

Coming from the yoshi's main who EATS spikes.

 

[ShadowGanon]

About the frames of noninvulerability... That's assuming you get past the high priority crystals made of skrewyourattack-inite. lol

There is no way for me to "like" your post enough...

 

[WhiteLightnin]

About the frames of noninvulerability... That's assuming you get past the high priority crystals made of skrewyourattack-inite. lol

Deviljho sorry the MU advice is taking so long. In the meantime I noticed that Nayru's seems to be a thorn for you. Aside from spacing options against it, just shield it and use a Nair OoS. That will work even against a land canceled Nayru's. Thanks for your patience!

Shadow I know we talked about the problem with Nayru's land canceled on shield but if you aren't caught in shield you can tear through it with your Wizard's Foot. Also if she is within range when you shield it, you should be able to get a guaranteed grab on the land canceled version.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Deviljho sorry the MU advice is taking so long. In the meantime I noticed that Nayru's seems to be a thorn for you. Aside from spacing options against it, just shield it and use a Nair OoS. That will work even against a land canceled Nayru's. Thanks for your patience!

Shadow I know we talked about the problem with Nayru's land canceled on shield but if you aren't caught in shield you can tear through it with your Wizard's Foot. Also if she is within range when you shield it, you should be able to get a guaranteed grab on the land canceled version.

1. Lol. If Zelda is performing a Nayru's on my shield, she will NEVER be in range of my shield grab. Ganon has T-Rex arms. Seriously, go look at the hitbox and frame data thread for Ganon.

2. A Zelda only performs Nayru's (on Ganon) if he is at least in f-tilt range and/or behind her. Believe me, if I could give Zelda the boot every time she used Nayru's, I would... With extreme pleasure.

 

[Deviljho]

Deviljho sorry the MU advice is taking so long. In the meantime I noticed that Nayru's seems to be a thorn for you. Aside from spacing options against it, just shield it and use a Nair OoS. That will work even against a land canceled Nayru's. Thanks for your patience!

Shadow I know we talked about the problem with Nayru's land canceled on shield but if you aren't caught in shield you can tear through it with your Wizard's Foot. Also if she is within range when you shield it, you should be able to get a guaranteed grab on the land canceled version.

Take your time! It's a hard one, so I understand completely that it's taking so long. In the meantime... Note = Taken. You think egg lay'd out space it? I've been exploring options with egg lay,

Coming from the yoshi's main who EATS spikes.

You'd think that the fact that Yoshi don't have no 3rd jump'd balance that bro.

*Snip*Ganon has T-Rex arms. *Snip*

That's why Yoshi has a tongue.

 

[ShadowGanon]

That's why Yoshi has a tongue.

 

[Deviljho]

View attachment 13303

I'm sorry. I had to do that. If it makes you feel better, Ganon has a great MU against Yoshi from what I've seen. It was mostly a joke, what I said about your post.

 

[ShadowGanon]

I'm sorry. I had to do that. If it makes you feel better, Ganon has a great MU against Yoshi from what I've seen. It was mostly a joke, what I said about your post.

You know, I was going to post a picture of Ganon stomping Yoshi offstage, but then I found this:

I ain't even mad anymore. LET US RIDE TOGETHER IN BATTLE!!!!!

 

[DarkStarStorm]

About the frames of noninvulerability... That's assuming you get past the high priority crystals made of skrewyourattack-inite. lol

The hitboxes are all horizontal. Attack from Northeast, Northwest, Southeast, Southwest, North, or South and you can juggle Zelda all day regardless of the Diamond Dive.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I think that they should take away the invulnerability and give her LIGHT armor on Nayru's. At times I feel like MK when using it. I think that they should add a horizontal Din's Boost mechanic to side-b. I think that they should make Zelda's U-air be a two-input move. I think that if they lessened the superspots on Fair then it would still be good. Bair is fine, the superspots on it aren't that bad honestly. Otherwise I think that she's fine. Experienced players only have two complaints that I've seen. Nayru's is broken (it is kinda), and FAIR OP. I think that if they made Fair be as powerful as Bair, all will be right in the world.

I suggested these to JCaesar and he said that he'd pass this on to the backroom. Now we can delete this thread.

 

[Deviljho]

AWWWWWWW YEEEEEAAAAAAH!

(I kinda just put this together quickly. Needless to say, it's pretty cool)

The hitboxes are all horizontal. Attack from Northeast, Northwest, Southeast, Southwest, North, or South and you can juggle Zelda all day regardless of the Diamond Dive.

I'll look into that. Sounds easier said then done though.

I suggested these to JCaesar and he said that he'd pass this on to the backroom. Now we can delete this thread.

We'll have to see. You never know what could happen.

 

[ShadowGanon]

I suggested these to JCaesar and he said that he'd pass this on to the backroom. Now we can delete this thread.

Nope. Not until next release, and even then, if we still think this thread should be here, it will stay.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

AWWWWWWW YEEEEEAAAAAAH!

(I kinda just put this together quickly. Needless to say, it's pretty cool)

I'll look into that. Sounds easier said then done though.

We'll have to see. You never know what could happen.

No, actually it's super easy. I've seen characters with no disjoint do it repeatedly. I saw a match between ZHime and a Lucario back in Demo 2.0 I believe it was. Every one of Zhime's land canceled Nayrus' were punished with a Lucario fair. The Lucario main wasn't even that good, he also used a Wiimote and Nunchuck, and he commentated while 2-0ing Zhime with Lucario, who has a -2 MU against Zelda. He punished the Nayrus' brah! That's why many good Zeldas use it to retreat, because it's easily punished.

Those Jedi newbs don't know how to punish what is essentially Rollout.

Insert: can defeat countless Foxes and Links

Can't punish Nayru's.

 

[Deviljho]

I think I can just counter it by using my amazing egg shield. Then my half tether grab will do the rest! Or Nair. Assuming I can pull that off before Princess Zorldo can do something.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I present to you the Smasher's seasoning!!
JOHNNEY'S SALT

Get it?

 

[Deviljho]

I present to you the Smasher's seasoning!!
JOHNNEY'S SALT
View attachment 13359
Get it?

Not gonna lie... I'm editing my first post to have this picture in it. That's frickin hilarious!

Update: Done. It's on the first post now.

 

[WhiteCrow]

1. Lol. If Zelda is performing a Nayru's on my shield, she will NEVER be in range of my shield grab. Ganon has T-Rex arms. Seriously, go look at the hitbox and frame data thread for Ganon.

2. A Zelda only performs Nayru's (on Ganon) if he is at least in f-tilt range and/or behind her. Believe me, if I could give Zelda the boot every time she used Nayru's, I would... With extreme pleasure.

If a Zelda Nayru's on your shield then you can literally just hold shield until the attack frames are done and punish. Grounded Nayru can't be acted out of until frame 69, and the last attack is on frame 27. That's 42 frames to get out of shield and do what ever you want. Jab comes out on frame 3, dash attack on frame 7, f-tilt frame 9.That's not even factoring jumping out of your shield for an aerial. Also, wave dash back f-tilt is good for baiting and punishing Nayru's. Even shffled fairs will nab hits on impatient Zelda's. You have options.

 

[ShadowGanon]

If a Zelda Nayru's on your shield then you can literally just hold shield until the attack frames are done and punish. Grounded Nayru can't be acted out of until frame 69, and the last attack is on frame 27. That's 42 frames to get out of shield and do what ever you want. Jab comes out on frame 3, dash attack on frame 7, f-tilt frame 9.That's not even factoring jumping out of your shield for an aerial. Also, wave dash back f-tilt is good for baiting and punishing Nayru's. Even shffled fairs will nab hits on impatient Zelda's. You have options.

A good Zelda never uses grounded Nayru's. EVER. Found this out after fighting @ WhiteLightnin .

Can you CC Nayru's at low percents?

 

[Pika_thunder]

A good Zelda never uses grounded Nayru's. EVER. Found this out after fighting @ WhiteLightnin .

Can you CC Nayru's at low percents?

True, but the best Zelda's mix it up.

 

[Deviljho]

True, but the best Zelda's mix it up.

Isn't that effectively what Shadow said?

... Sorry I'm on a Phoenix Wright binge right now. xD

 

[WhiteLightnin]

A good Zelda never uses grounded Nayru's. EVER. Found this out after fighting @ WhiteLightnin .

Can you CC Nayru's at low percents?

I wouldn't say never but it is extremely situational and should be used very sparingly. It is extremely punishable and has no followup without a preset din's. In most cases there is a better option.

Yes it can be crouch canceled to a certain extent and you can also use DI to mess with the followup.

 

[ShadowGanon]

True, but the best Zelda's mix it up.

You don't mix in bad options. That just doesn't work. That's like trying to use the Warlock Punch as a mix up in the place of Wiz Kick. Wiz Kick is always going to be better (Might be extremely disproportionate to what we're talking about, but you know what I mean). To quote WhiteLightnin's post below, "It (Grounded Nayru's) is extremely punishable and has no followup without a preset din's. In most cases there is a better option."

I wouldn't say never but it is extremely situational and should be used very sparingly. It is extremely punishable and has no followup without a preset din's. In most cases there is a better option.

Yes it can be crouch canceled to a certain extent and you can also use DI to mess with the followup.

Do you know what percent past which you cannot CC it?

 

[WhiteLightnin]

If a Zelda Nayru's on your shield then you can literally just hold shield until the attack frames are done and punish. Grounded Nayru can't be acted out of until frame 69, and the last attack is on frame 27. That's 42 frames to get out of shield and do what ever you want. Jab comes out on frame 3, dash attack on frame 7, f-tilt frame 9.That's not even factoring jumping out of your shield for an aerial. Also, wave dash back f-tilt is good for baiting and punishing Nayru's. Even shffled fairs will nab hits on impatient Zelda's. You have options.

I think he is referring to land canceled Nayru's which ganondorf does have a harder time dealing with than a lot of the rest of the cast. If the Zelda doesn't land within range of his grab, the best options are probably to either roll away or to wavedash out of shield.

I'm not sure on the percent past which it can't be CCd. It varies with each character.

 

[Pika_thunder]

You don't mix in bad options. That just doesn't work. That's like trying to use the Warlock Punch as a mix up in the place of Wiz Kick. Wiz Kick is always going to be better (Might be extremely disproportionate to what we're talking about, but you know what I mean). To quote WhiteLightnin's post below, "It (Grounded Nayru's) is extremely punishable and has no followup without a preset din's. In most cases there is a better option."


Do you know what percent past which you cannot CC it?

Oos you can jump out of shield and use love. Sometimes you have to use love lower to the ground than you want to. That is how you mix it up. (if you could follow that) there are also a few other situations.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Oos you can jump out of shield and use love. Sometimes you have to use love lower to the ground than you want to. That is how you mix it up. (if you could follow that) there are also a few other situations.

There are a few situations, but, if you have the time to do so, land canceled Nayru's is always the better option because it does the same thing, but without most of the lag.

 

[WhiteCrow]

How fast can Zelda act out of land canceled Nayru's? Like, how long does it stay out? I'm just trying to brain storm answers for Nayru on shield that aren't wave dash OoS.

 

[BJN39]

How fast can Zelda act out of land canceled Nayru's? Like, how long does it stay out? I'm just trying to brain storm answers for Nayru on shield that aren't wave dash OoS.

AFAIK it's 4 frames of Lag.


...Which still doesn't make since that it's still called a "land-cancel" if it has forced landing lag. (regardless of duration)

Revert to 2.6 perhaps?

 

[Deviljho]

AFAIK it's 4 frames of Lag.


...Which still doesn't make since that it's still called a "land-cancel" if it has forced landing lag. (regardless of duration)

Revert to 2.6 perhaps?

Four Frames of lag... With TV's running, what? Some 40-60 Fps i think. That means you have between .1 to .15 seconds to react, correct? Is that even humanly possible?

 

[Pika_thunder]

Smash runs at 60 fps, I've told you this many times. Avg. human reaction Time is .15-.3 sec. But that data assumes that Zelda is perfect, which she isn't. The hits end at frame 27 and the land cancel can happen from frame 28-68. So you have minimum 5 frames to react.

 

[Deviljho]

Smash runs at 60 fps, I've told you this many times. Avg. human reaction Time is .15-.3 sec. But that data assumes that Zelda is perfect, which she isn't. The hits end at frame 27 and the land cancel can happen from frame 28-68. So you have minimum 5 frames to react.

Giving >.2 seconds to react. That average human reaction time is how fast it takes for a human to start reacting. So if everything works in the favor of the Zelda, you have between .1 - .2 seconds to react. Since Humans are imperfect, you probably get around .35-.5 seconds, my guess. With which you still have to deal with the crystals flowing around Zelda. If you manage to shield the crystals, you have around .4 seconds to first input a jump to jump oos or spot dodge or whatnot, then input an aerial, let's say for arguements sake, Yoshi's nair. So If I, as Yoshi, decide to jump oos and pull a nair, a Zelda can indeed pull something out, especially after a land cancel. Yoshi has to jump out of his shield first, taking out maybe >3-4 frames if lucky. Then, you have to input a nair, which for Yoshi happens to be 2 frames. After all of that, in the situation you provided, that most zeldas give a min of 5 frames of leeway, said Yoshi will have a very tough time countering that. If you tried that oos nair and matched Zelda frame per frame, grab armor will render the nair to do nothing but deal some damage. Please correct me if I am wrong, or if there is a more effective way of countering that.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Giving >.2 seconds to react. That average human reaction time is how fast it takes for a human to start reacting. So if everything works in the favor of the Zelda, you have between .1 - .2 seconds to react. Since Humans are imperfect, you probably get around .35-.5 seconds, my guess. With which you still have to deal with the crystals flowing around Zelda. If you manage to shield the crystals, you have around .4 seconds to first input a jump to jump oos or spot dodge or whatnot, then input an aerial, let's say for arguements sake, Yoshi's nair. So If I, as Yoshi, decide to jump oos and pull a nair, a Zelda can indeed pull something out, especially after a land cancel. Yoshi has to jump out of his shield first, taking out maybe >3-4 frames if lucky. Then, you have to input a nair, which for Yoshi happens to be 2 frames. After all of that, in the situation you provided, that most zeldas give a min of 5 frames of leeway, said Yoshi will have a very tough time countering that. If you tried that oos nair and matched Zelda frame per frame, grab armor will render the nair to do nothing but deal some damage. Please correct me if I am wrong, or if there is a more effective way of countering that.

At least you have n-air OoS (Maybe). The only options Ganon has are wavedash OoS and L+R+A+Start OoS -> character switch (Been practicing my Roy). #ThePh1r3 #RoysOurBoy #TakeOffTheTiara #HollerAtYourRoy #HomeRoy #MahRoy

It's been ages since I've fought a Zelda, though. You Zeldas play WAY too late in the day for me to play with you guys. And Dark is always too busy with his channel to play online.

 

[Pika_thunder]

Giving >.2 seconds to react. That average human reaction time is how fast it takes for a human to start reacting. So if everything works in the favor of the Zelda, you have between .1 - .2 seconds to react. Since Humans are imperfect, you probably get around .35-.5 seconds, my guess. With which you still have to deal with the crystals flowing around Zelda. If you manage to shield the crystals, you have around .4 seconds to first input a jump to jump oos or spot dodge or whatnot, then input an aerial, let's say for arguements sake, Yoshi's nair. So If I, as Yoshi, decide to jump oos and pull a nair, a Zelda can indeed pull something out, especially after a land cancel. Yoshi has to jump out of his shield first, taking out maybe >3-4 frames if lucky. Then, you have to input a nair, which for Yoshi happens to be 2 frames. After all of that, in the situation you provided, that most zeldas give a min of 5 frames of leeway, said Yoshi will have a very tough time countering that. If you tried that oos nair and matched Zelda frame per frame, grab armor will render the nair to do nothing but deal some damage. Please correct me if I am wrong, or if there is a more effective way of countering that.

That's why you read your opponents. Not constantly playing on reaction like a dummy.

Edit: you are not an idiot, you play smart. But the people who complain tend to not make reads

 

[Deviljho]

That's why you read your opponents. Not constantly playing on reaction like a dummy.

Edit: you are not an idiot, you play smart. But the people who complain tend to not make reads

Smooth save bro.

Yes, you are correct. A read is more then capable of producing the counter needed. However, you stated before that Zeldas should use Naryus sparingly, thus making is harder to read. As I understand it, you (Zelda mains in general) use it as a "panic attack", making the read easier then I stated. So somewhere in the middle. So so difficulty to read.

 

[Pika_thunder]

Smooth save bro.

Yes, you are correct. A read is more then capable of producing the counter needed. However, you stated before that Zeldas should use Naryus sparingly, thus making is harder to read. As I understand it, you (Zelda mains in general) use it as a "panic attack", making the read easier then I stated. So somewhere in the middle. So so difficulty to read.

My panic attack: fair

U KNOW ITZ TRUU!

 

[WhiteCrow]

However, you stated before that Zeldas should use Naryus sparingly, thus making is harder to read. As I understand it, you (Zelda mains in general) use it as a "panic attack", making the read easier then I stated. So somewhere in the middle. So so difficulty to read.

And it all depends on the Zelda. I like using b-reversed Nayru's as an approach option, to mix up other approaches. Some Zelda's use grounded Nayru's as a tech chase option when Din's are out. It's kind of a sad panic button because you know the risk when you press it. If you miss or they read you or get out of Nayru then that's your stock if you're at a high enough percent. I like to think of it as the button that makes you panic.

Speaking of panic buttons and #realZeldaproblems, why is u-smash OoS so hard? It's so good against spacies...

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Oos you can jump out of shield and use love. Sometimes you have to use love lower to the ground than you want to. That is how you mix it up. (if you could follow that) there are also a few other situations.

That is a really bad idea because they can see it coming from a mile away and also it's so slow that it would be defeated immediately. Also Zelda has two better options OoS: up-b and up-smash.

 

[Deviljho]

My panic attack: fair

U KNOW ITZ TRUU!

I do. i know it all too well. *insert a pinch of salt*

And it all depends on the Zelda. I like using b-reversed Nayru's as an approach option, to mix up other approaches. Some Zelda's use grounded Nayru's as a tech chase option when Din's are out. It's kind of a sad panic button because you know the risk when you press it. If you miss or they read you or get out of Nayru then that's your stock if you're at a high enough percent. I like to think of it as the button that makes you panic.

Speaking of panic buttons and #realZeldaproblems, why is u-smash OoS so hard? It's so good against spacies...

It's sorta like egg roll. It's a great move for combos and stuff but if you use it too riskily you loose your jump... and at least half of the time your stock.

 

[TimeSmash]

And it all depends on the Zelda. I like using b-reversed Nayru's as an approach option, to mix up other approaches. Some Zelda's use grounded Nayru's as a tech chase option when Din's are out. It's kind of a sad panic button because you know the risk when you press it. If you miss or they read you or get out of Nayru then that's your stock if you're at a high enough percent. I like to think of it as the button that makes you panic.

Speaking of panic buttons and #realZeldaproblems, why is u-smash OoS so hard? It's so good against spacies...

I have actually set L to Jump to do USmash OoS. It helps a lot.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Zelda's moves are a bit spammable. Forward smash and Nayru's Love are spammable, and both shield stab easily. I'd compare these two moves to Mewtwo's nair, unlike Mewtwo's nair, you don't have to aim a certain hitbox to shieldstab. These two moves just do. Other than that, I'd say decrease the range of that Up B a little bit and increase the blow up hitbox of Din's Fire and she's good.

This really shouldn't have been posted in the matchup thread, so I'm redirecting it to where it belongs. Your focus on the effectiveness of shield stabbing is a little misguided, especially when you're comparing these moves to one of the safest on shield options currently in the game (Mewtwo's hovering/hover cancelled nair). If you're eating f-smashes and Nayru's that are shield stabbing you then I'd recommend spacing Zelda better and staying in your shield less, or just learn their hit boxes and learn to angle your shield appropriately.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Speaking of panic buttons and #realZeldaproblems, why is u-smash OoS so hard? It's so good against spacies...

I know this response may be a little late, but as long as you have tap jump on, it's pretty easy. Just and then immediately But if you don't have tap jump on, then it is a good deal harder.

One other note is that if you want to use + to up-smash OoS, you have to let go of your shield button or she'll grab. In Melee you don't have to do this, but PM (and I'm assuming Brawl as well) you have to let go of the shield

That is a really bad idea because they can see it coming from a mile away and also it's so slow that it would be defeated immediately. Also Zelda has two better options OoS: up-b and up-smash.

The problem with up-b and up-smash OoS is the lack of range. Nayru's is slower but covers MUCH more area. Nayru's OoS actually isn't too bad, since you get invincibility relatively soon. It's like a frame 10 option compared to 6 or 7 of up-b/up-smash. NOTE: Those aren't the exact frames, I don't remember what they are exactly