The Tournament Debate: BoX or Single Matches?

[ss118]

Basically people are having issues with Bo3(Best of three) because it could potentially be more luck-based than not. Both people play a match, then will they change teams or not? If it looks similar, has it been changed? What about movesets? Should I counter him, or attempt to counter his counters? Stuff like that.

Single matches, on the other hand, fall apart because of it idea of luck being too influential. Sure, double-elimination kind of helps, but along 7 matches you might encounter 2 unlucky matches.

Yeah so this is debate or whatever. Personally I feel we should play where both players send twelve pokemon to be their entire "team" as they are stuck with them between matches. And you can only change three members at most between matches(and only the loser), and the pokemon have to stay consistent with their set. IE, let's say my team is

Cutsap Steelix
RestTalk Steelix
Phazing Steelix
Cursing Steelix
Band Steelix
Occa Steelix

Once we have the match, those movesets have to stay consistent among the entire set. If my other six pokemon are Heracross, Bulbasaur, Ditto, Charizard, Shandera, and Azumarill, when you lose you can trade 3 of the steelix in for those pokemon with any set, BUT you have to keep that moveset for the final match(if you win).

Benefits:

1) Luck is somewhat negated.
2) "Team-picking" luck is negated.
3) Battling "prediction" luck is negated.

Negatives:

1) Complicated at first.
2) Relies a bit on the honor system.

 

[Wave⁂]

I'd like to point out that choosing your team is completely independent of luck, unless you roll a die.

 

[Gates]

Does this really need its own thread?

 

[Wrath`]

I personally like best of X as it lets you size up how your opponent is playing the first round, so even if you lose you have a good chance of taking round two based on what you learned in round one.

 

[Wave⁂]

I personally like best of X as it lets you size up how your opponent is playing the first round, so even if you lose you have a good chance of taking round two based on what you learned in round one.

It also works the other way around, though. So essentially, nothing changes.

 

[UltiMario]

BoX essentially increases the chance that the better player will win. Putting and kind of silly limit on this is increasing the chance that a player has a bad pool in a scenario and can't access another team.

Only once has this formula failed me, in where someone was somehow able to slap a counterteam together in the time it took to reach Game 3 (I lost the first and won the second) causing me to lose the set. This is stupid, disrespectful, and extremely rare though, so you're avoiding more problems by leaving it as a normal Bo3 than trying to impose anything silly.

 

[IceArrow]

I like this idea but it should be 9 pokemon instead of 12.

 

[Wave⁂]

I think I counterteamed once, my team was really weak to some subseeder so I change one of my Pokemon to a Grass-type.

 

[Circa]

I like this idea but it should be 9 pokemon instead of 12.

Agreed.

I've disliked Bo3 ever since I was in a tournament on Smogon. I didn't ever feel the need to play them more than once, even if my team did happen to be at a large disadvantage or something. One match also supports more of a surprise factor in team building, which I find to be a major plus. But that's just my opinion.

One thing I definitely like in Art's concept though is that the system is complicated enough that random people that never post in the PC probably wouldn't even bother to enter. Unless they didn't read the rules or something, which we could have a rule for reading the rules too (I believe Tery did that with Mixed Bags?).

 

[kirbyraeg]

Pokemon should be done like tetris: First to 15 wins.

 

[Gates]

Again, you guys could just talk about this in the tournament discussion thread since it's very relevant to what goes on in PC tourneys. We've got the blacklist situation all figured out now, so this topic can be brought to the table there. The only other thing that's going on in that thread is me wishing I could Ulti through the internet, and that's not incredibly important right now.

Pokemon should be done like tetris: First to 15 wins.

That seems reasonable.

kirbyraeg, Gen IV Stall FT15? It'll probably only take like 5 days hours minutes.

 

[UltiMario]

The only other thing that's going on in that thread is me wishing I could Ulti through the internet, and that's not incredibly important right now.

More like .5% IMO

@Circa Anyways, while 1 match does make the game a lot more of the surprise factor, it also adds a lot more luck. It's good to have Bo3 at least so more strategy is involved.

 

[CT Chia]

I do like the idea of going in with x pokemon and choosing 6 for each battle, practically how for the nintendo tourneys you get 6 and choose 4 for each battle. Only problem is that there is no way to really sanction that well, and other tiny changes like EV changes can slip by unnoticed between rounds.

I vote single matches. Pokemon matches are long as it is, and the concept of counterpicking makes absolutely no sense in pokemon as I described in Gates' thread.

 

[Gates]

Pokemon matches aren't that long. It doesn't take much effort to sweep a team with Steelix.

 

[UltiMario]

I vote single matches. Pokemon matches are long as it is, and the concept of counterpicking makes absolutely no sense in pokemon as I described in Gates' thread.

If by "long" you mean "4 minutes," then yes, they're long.

Protip: No, that isn't long.

 

[CT Chia]

Pokemon has no time limit and can easily exceed 10, if not 20 minutes (when playing on DS)

Compare it to a game like street fighter where a round can not last more than 1.5 minutes, yes it's very long.

 

[UltiMario]

Pokemon has no time limit and can easily exceed 10, if not 20 minutes (when playing on DS)

Compare it to a game like street fighter where a round can not last more than 1.5 minutes, yes it's very long.

There's your problem.

You forgot about the part where nobody is ever going to play on DS.

 

[Gates]

1. We're not playing on DS. We never have played on DS. We will likely never run a DS tourney.
2. Street Fighter matches are best 2 out of 3 rounds. A single Street Fighter match can last up to 5 minutes (99 seconds *3 = 297 seconds = 4 minutes 57 seconds). And guess what? In Street Fighter they still do best 2 out of 3 matches for each round in tourney.
3. Comparing the two is an apples and oranges scenario. It would be analogous to comparing chess to beer pong.

 

[ss118]

I do like the idea of going in with x pokemon and choosing 6 for each battle, practically how for the nintendo tourneys you get 6 and choose 4 for each battle. Only problem is that there is no way to really sanction that well, and other tiny changes like EV changes can slip by unnoticed between rounds.

If that really is an issue, then we could just limit it to a low number so that flexibility among sets isn't as big of an issue. I feel the most appropriate numbers are 12 and 9 if people wouldn't change sets, but if you want to change sets then I think that 10-8 would be an appropriate number.

Not to mention for 2/3s, we already somewhat rely on an honor system to not counter-team between matches, though some people already do that and it really isn't illegal. It's like losing to a yoshi player in melee with fox(don't ask me @_@), then picking Sheik.

 

[CT Chia]

I feel like you're forced to switch teams for every match (requiring up to 3 teams) because if you don't your opponent will know most of what you have after playing it once.

Ideally I always play with the mindset of my opponent knowing everything I have, as I try to design teams with little to no counters possible, and rely on stellar play over team building. Also countering a team in pokemon is much worse than countering a character in smash, since the comparison has already been made a few times.

 

[Riddle]

I don't understand why Bo3 is bad. Just build 3 different teams, you can't be counterteamed then...

 

[ss118]

What if you put all of your effort into one team? It would suck if you did that and it could beat any conventional team, but loses if the opponent metagames properly against you(as every team does).

I would rather games be decided off of "who is the better player" than "who has the better team(s)," which is truly impossible in BW because you can't cover all of your bases.

Spoiler

guess which gen does do that, though?

 

[Riddle]

I would rather the battle be decided by who has the better team(s) tbh.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Steelix likes Bo3

 

[ss118]

Well obviously having the better team should be a part of it, but at this point the game has turned into "does my strategy/ pokemon have the advantage versus his" rather than "can I play my well-developed team better than he plays his well-developed team."

 

[Riddle]

^Yet another reason to do Bo3.

I do agree with that statement.

 

[ss118]

But the problem comes in if both people have 3 teams: which one do you start with? What about the next game? Third game?

What if my team building AND battling skills are better, but I lose two out of three matches because of an unfortunate team-picking advantage. Personally I'd be pissed.

Which is why I like the whole "pick 10 pokemon, use 6 and interchange two between loses" style that incorporates a style of counter-picking, eliminates luck, and attempts to maximize the skill in pokemon: now you have a chance to cover slight holes in your team-building through counter-picking.

 

[Riddle]

I'd have to see your idea in practice, but I admit I'm skeptical about its effectiveness.

 

[Circa]

^Yet another reason to do Bo3.

I do agree with that statement.

I can't believe you can say this when you and I both know that our last matches always come down to "okay so his team is more underdeveloped than mine, but he predicts like a ***** so even though my team is better I'm going to have to overpredict his predictions/possible overpredictions at almost every corner if I have any hopes of getting out of this alive". (ie educated guess)

In your perspective of course.

Don't ask why I used that as an example. It only partially makes sense with what was said.

 

[Riddle]

Its because I don't try and make more than 1 team against you. Playing in tourney against you is awful.